Can we get Vault Validation and why is Favor The Killer still a thing?

Nicholas · January 2023

The conversation is often about fairness, but the principal network philosophy is inherently unfair to Survivors. It is referred to as Favor The Killer. In other words, hits are handled on The Killer's end (even with Dedicated Servers). Hit Validation only kicks in at a very generous threshold - last I checked, it was 300 ms. Pallet and DH Validation are different, and those two checks are server-based.

This permanent and perpetual advantage granted to The Killer feels terrible. The devs have explained and sympathized with the idea of a killer striking a survivor and seeing that hit only for it to get rejected as being too frustrating. Yet they aren't concerned with a survivor getting attacked by a hit that was too far as being a worthy consideration. Every survivor can confirm that it's equally painful and frustrating when you're hit, especially at a vault where you cleared and triggered Lithe, for example, only for you to get hit at a distance and downed while Exhausted. Vault Validation would be nice but moving everything to server authority sounds fairer for all five players in a Trial.

Match after match of dealing with high latency killers, and they are rewarded with insane hits! The ping icon is nice to see, but what is done? I can see and feel the latency favoring The Killer; they have a tremendous advantage. The last few weeks have been terrible.

The devs like to say Favor the Shooter works in other games like FPS. Sure it works in those games because EVERYONE is the shooter. In DBD, only one is The Killer.

Favor The Killer is a one-sided advantage, at the expense of every Survivor. The game is designed around this; thus, it has never and will never truly be fair. So I can't help but laugh when players say the devs favor survivors.

illumina · January 2023

I cringe every time I vault. Using Lithe, I have to vault super early because my character stops, slides over, gets wacked. I question if fast vaulting is even a thing. There are more occurrences of me stopping to vault then me actually running and getting the fast vault. Then there is exactly as you say, I'll be full cleared of the vault and in running motion, only to still be hit/downed. It is pretty frustrating.

SmolBlob · January 2023

Vault validation doesn’t exist because vaults don’t make you protected from a hit like a pallet can.

Latency will always exist and the server will have to favor SOMEONE. Games always tend to "favor the shooter" (ie, the one doing the action to the other person). Why? Because "favoring the target" means the shooter has to literally predict and react to the future. And for something that happens almost instantaneously, even if it did favor the target, there is not much chance to react regardless.

A hit scan bullet isn’t reactably dodgable. A projectile bullet with high speed at close range isn’t reactably dodgable. Similarly, most things at that kind of point blank distance in DBD also are not reactable. A non-lunge range M1 is unreactable for the purpose of something like Dead Hard.

So there’s no point to "favoring the target" for things that they can’t reactively respond to in the first place. In comparison, "favoring the shooter" means they can do things like react to someone running to the left and lead their shot before they shoot. Similarly, in DBD, it means they can play in response to what the survivor did. Eg, if the survivor goes for a pallet or window, preparing for chucking a hatchet over it.

Also, it’s not like the target has no options. The target knows they’ll be fired on/etc. In the Huntress example, they already know she will be looking for hits at pallets and windows via hatchet. So they play differently to avoid that in the first place. At long distance, they could run in literally any direction and even dodge a hatchet thrown at them due to the travel time. There is a large amount of "variability" available to the target, because they have a lot of options for which way to go.

The shooter has to hit a target that could run in almost any direction in the future if the game favors the target. IE, it is genuinely impossible and unfair to expect that of them. But conversely, the survivor already knows the shooter is going to be trying to take shots at them in certain situations. So they can work to avoid or counteract those situations in the first place. Like not giving those clear lines of sight or taking advantage of aiming time or so on.

This way, both the target having options and the shooter not having to literally react and predict which future is correct out of the numerous options the target constantly has works out.

MB666 · January 2023

Can we get Vault Validation and why is Favor The Killer still a thing?

Nicholas

Jan 2, 2023

The conversation is often about fairness, but the principal network philosophy is inherently unfair to Survivors. It is referred to as Favor The Killer. In other words, hits are handled on The Killer's end (even with Dedicated Servers). Hit Validation only kicks in at a very generous threshold - last I checked, it was 300 ms. Pallet and DH Validation are different, and those two checks are server-based.
This permanent and perpetual advantage granted to The Killer feels terrible. The devs have explained and sympathized with the idea of a killer striking a survivor and seeing that hit only for it to get rejected as being too frustrating. Yet they aren't concerned with a survivor getting attacked by a hit that was too far as being a worthy consideration. Every survivor can confirm that it's equally painful and frustrating when you're hit, especially at a vault where you cleared and triggered Lithe, for example, only for you to get hit at a distance and downed while Exhausted. Vault Validation would be nice but moving everything to server authority sounds fairer for all five players in a Trial.
Match after match of dealing with high latency killers, and they are rewarded with insane hits! The ping icon is nice to see, but what is done? I can see and feel the latency favoring The Killer; they have a tremendous advantage. The last few weeks have been terrible.
The devs like to say Favor the Shooter works in other games like FPS. Sure it works in those games because EVERYONE is the shooter. In DBD, only one is The Killer.
Favor The Killer is a one-sided advantage, at the expense of every Survivor. The game is designed around this; thus, it has never and will never truly be fair. So I can't help but laugh when players say the devs favor survivors.

I share the same opinion while not the one of the devs being killers sided , COWSHED exist .....about laggy hits like jeeez even sometimes when playing killer on HIGH PING u can also see those BS hits on your screen connect somehow and on the survivor screen looks even WORSE...thats why is soo dumb that this thing has been around since Dedicated Servers , if you look back to Peer to Peer server , vaults use to work consistenly but since Dedicated servers , you just have to pray that killer has good connection and if not them you just are forced to pre-vault stuff to counter the latency.

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3308902#Comment_3308902

I understand all of that but why rewarding bad ping for killers ? even when validation is a thing i can confirm that if you play killer while VPNing to get 200+ ms , you basically gain Long Arms and you can even see such BS hits really often...how do you fix that? idk...why about just making that vaults counts as an interaction and upon certain distance (SERVER-SIDE) survivor can not get damaged by just m1 attacks...(special attacks are way more hard to fix IMO but what about just fixing the BS part of m1 killers atleast)

good connection killers basically gets punish while a laggy killer just get long arms for free...

(1) this killer's ping was over 9000... | Dead by Daylight - YouTube

am sorry but this kinda of HITs should never connect..and this type of games can happen pretty often since survivor can no longer see their own ping untill the match starts.

MB666 · January 2023

egg_ · January 2023

The latency argument for people defending current hit detection is simply wrong, and anyone with an actual good connection knows it, because when they play killer they get penalized by not having hits connect (which is what it should be like) but that with a slightly worse connection would connect. Conversely, survivors with good connection see themselves getting hit when the fast vault animation is over already, when the killer should've just hit the window frame instead. Basically current hit validation actually favors bad connections which is so beyond me I can't believe they're so bad at coding they can't even fix this issue

I'm here speaking with an average 35ms, fix your ######### hit validation system k thanks bye

jajay119 · January 2023

My favourite occurrence of this wasn't even a hit, but a rather a match in Coldwind where I had fully finished a vault over the small walls by the tree (my feet were literallly on the other side of the wall on the floor) and I got yanked back as if the killer caught me mid vault. Amazing BS.

I do think it'll be hard to manage but there definitely needs to be some sort of protection to say at a certain point in a vault the hit will miss. I watch certain streamers and they make so many vaults where the killer hits a window and I just know that hit would have landed for me lol.

AverageKateMain · January 2023

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one getting bummed by these hits. But the worst part is killers will bm me on hook and nod after getting handed a free hit and I'm the bad guy cause I survived in chase

ad19970 · January 2023

Something like this certainly shouldn't ever favor the survivor. I am going to be honest, I have had weird experiences on both sides. Sometimes you definitely get hit even though you shouldn't have, but there have also been times where I didn't get a hit against a vaulting survivor even though I should have. If something like this happened more frequently, it would be terrible, especially because faking vaults would become more effective, too effectve, in that case.

Making the hit validation fairer does sound like a good idea, but only if it doesn't result in killer hits that don't end up registering, because that would feel awful. Even more important, a change like this could only ever happen once more maps become actually balanced. Right now we have way too many survivor sided maps, so a change like this, that would end up in more missed killer attacks at vaults, would just incentivise killers further to camp and tunnel. Especially on crappy maps.

Pulsar · January 2023

There are times when I wish we didn't move to Dedicated Servers.

I swear I have had more issues with laggy Killers since the swap.

gnehehe · January 2023

Yes, DbD is the single game that will reward players with terrible pings, especially on killer side

If you play any FPS game with huge ping, you will miss every HS, and even may be dead before you can shot lol

In DbD, high-ping killers will get several generous hits in every single match (during both vaulting "windows/dropped pallets" actions) and this is already game-changing by itself.

Over the years, only the pallet stun has been slightly addressed (still non-optimal) to punish high ping killers

Tbh, I hardly ever had issues on killer side with high ping survivors (since lag-switching exploit has been fixed!) ; they often give free hits or even DC from the game after licking a wall for 5 sec, lol.

To conclude: yes, huge ping players (>80ms) must be punished, very hard, especially when they play ranged killers

gnehehe · January 2023

https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3309669#Comment_3309669

I feel the same ... because I used to DODGE high ping killers, which is not possible anymore lol

Emeal · January 2023

Can we also get Dead Hard animation Validation? Tired of seeing DH proc with no animation.

Paternalpark · January 2023

Omg please, I'm in eu now and the game feels so much better having ping in my favour as a survivor.

I forgot how good this game felt before they switched to dedicated servers.

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