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January 2023 Developer Update for Midchapter 6.5.0
Loving pretty much all of these changes.
Slightly concerned there's no mention of some perk changes, but I know they don't always include everything in the PTB.
Headlines:
- Survivor Activity HUD
- Nurse blink attacks changed from basic -> special attacks, and changes to her add-ons.
- Knight changes so his power is more useful in more ways.
- Eyrie of Crows map changes to (hopefully) make it less survivor sided
- In-game rift challenge tracker
- Gameflow improvements so we can browse the store/customise etc. whilst queuing.
- Wiggle update coming out of beta (and some minor changes to it)
- More outfits being purchased for Iri shards for The Clown, The Spirit, Ace Visconti, and Feng Min
PTB will be out Tomorrow.
Comments
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To set expectations ahead of time, there's no secret perk changes in this update. This mid-chapter has a bunch of big features that take a lot of work to implement, so sadly there wasn't any bandwidth for perk changes on top of that. We've still got plenty of perk changes in mind for future updates, though!
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NURSE DID NOT GET HILLBILLY'D. THE CHANGES MAKE SENSE. REJOICE
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Sweet baby jesus there’s so much here
2023 starting off strong!
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They do occasionally put perk changes into hot fixes, I think (correct me if I'm wrong). So I'm really hoping they'll do that and we don't have to play against Eruption as is for another 2 months...
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Thanks for clearing that up, Peanits. Honestly, I'm mega excited for a lot of what's coming in this update, so I'm definitely not disappointed.
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Thank you devs for adding the in-game challenge tracker. Especially useful for the challenges ones that need to be completed in 1 match.
I don't understand the last part of Knight's change where he has a 10 second limit to pathing. Does that mean I can't just drop a guard on top of where I'm standing? Or have have to wait 10 seconds to drop it?
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And yet you all blew my and alot of other peoples expectations out of the water. Good work.
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The Knight-changes look really good. Might change his playstyle in a way that he is more interesting to play than currently.
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From how I understand it, it's the following:
On live, you can go into your patrol mode, and move the max distance and/or stay in it indefinitely. That's made some tactics for pseudo camping the hook work with certain perks. So instead, you'll now be only able to stay in the 'patrol' view for 10 seconds before you get teleported back to the Knight so you can't stay in it indefinitely anymore.
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Holy moly, we're actually getting Nurse nerfs. That alone makes this update a massive W, let alone all the other fantastic looking changes.
Absolutely blew my expectations out of the water, I'm very pleased to see all this!
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Loved everything. Excited to watch some PTB stuff tomorrow.
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Gonna see a lot more camping/tunneling happening with the hud changes.
Knight still looks like trash. They're incentivizing you to do something bad with still not enough incentive. Fixed none of his core issues or lots of terrible addons.
Optimistic on the Eyrie changes but I hope the map is much smaller in size than "slightly". We need map reworks like this on maps across the board, much faster than 1 at a time with how many maps we need done.
Really disappointed not seeing perk changes, these need to be done way more often and way faster. There are literally tons of perks that can be fixed with simple number changes, basically no developer time. These ones should not take the amount of time it does.
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Anyone else think changing the merciless killer requirement to a 4k is a bad idea? Every killer will slug for the 4k now and campers with deadlock (mostly bubbas) will get rewarded for it now
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It's a limit to how long you can spend in your power. Once you start drawing a guard path, you have 10 seconds to finish it before it forces you out. You can still quickly drop a guard where you're standing, you just can't stay in your power indefinitely to hide your terror radius.
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"Gonna see a lot more camping/tunneling happening with the hud changes."
Classic.
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I don't think getting a 4k will double pip you regardless. I think they're JUST changing the '(x) killer' result so it's based on kills rather than pips gained.
I think this means that the pips gained are still related to emblems, so this change should basically only benefit people going for adept, so hopefully shouldn't encourage killers to play differently based on pips since that's still related to emblems.
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Still really disappointed to see Eruption did not get dealt with as its a bit part of the problem of the current awful meta
Edit: to add balance, there is a lot of really great stuff in here too including the rather minor Nurse nerf and changes to adepts for example, let alone the obvious buff to solo survivor
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Is it not true?
Can we have a rational conversation instead of just snarky comments at me?
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Just once, I would like for a mod to be really excited to share with us news of something that would improve the killer experience. Really? Killers couldn't get an FoV slider, or anything to improve their experience? Are survivors people that should be celebrated and applauded, and killers are just mandatory pesky nuisances that don't ever deserve nice things?
And for the love of the entity, if the survivor icons do move the kill rate, can killers get actual feels good changes like an FoV slider, instead of getting generic uninspired number buffs, that don't actually improve the killer experience even though they are effective in moving the kill rate?
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Nah, it is just a classic comment.
Anything bad to Killer happens: "We will see more tunneling!"
Anything good to Survivor happens: "We will see more tunneling!"
Acting if Killers are not tunneling and camping like mad anyway. Quite amusing.
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Thanks for clarifying all.
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Everything causes more camping and tunneling don't you know? Survivors get some good perks? "This will just cause killers to camp and tunnel". Get some good QOL improvements? "This will just cause killers to camp and tunnel". Newsflash current game is already a camp and tunnel fest. It's the nature of the game.
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Kinda sad, but understandable.
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I'm pretty happy with these changes overall.
I'm excited for the survivor HUD update, it seems like a solid way to help out solo queues without gaving an extra power to SWF groups.
Im a little sad that nurse wont be able to benefit from basic attack based perks anymore, but if anyone can handle that just fine, it's probably nurse. It feels a little weird to have on killer that can't benefit from certain perks that all other killers can, but nurse's basekit probably is powerful enough that her not being able to benefit from exposed is fairly justified.
Speed Boost after making a long path as Knight sounds fun, and I hope it's actually viable in practice and not just on paper.
Eyrie of Crows changes is probably the one I'm most excited about. Making the map square should definitely make things easier on killers without movement abilities. Less jungle gyms near main building is also nice. Once again, I hope that this is actually makes it more balanced in practice and not just on paper.
Merciless Killer update is also something Im very excited for. I'm going to actually try to go for those achievements now that getting them is a lot more clear cut and I don't have to play absolutely perfectly in order to get them.
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Eyrie changes, Knight buffs, Killer Adepts getting easier, and the both-sides changes like the in-game challenge tracker and ability to browse during the match queue don't improve the killer experience? Heck, they even changed the wiggle skillchecks to no longer grant extra progression.
I think you're overreacting to literally two of the many changes in this update, both of which are long overdue and comparatively not even that much.
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"Anything bad to Killer happens: "We will see more tunneling!"
Anything good to Survivor happens: "We will see more tunneling!""
Because it's true. A more constructive response would have been something like saying how we can make other changes to fix those potential increases in tunneling/camping that will come. Instead you just decided to make a sarcastic/mocking comment to me.
"Acting if Killers are not tunneling and camping like mad anyway. Quite amusing."
Is that what I was acting like? Really?
No, I wasn't, if you actually read it for what it said instead of what you wanted to hear through bias.
Camping and tunneling are happening like mad, that doesn't imply it still can't happen more, which is all I said. It feels like you always come at people looking for an argument and trying to incite instead of for a constructive conversation.
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Question, does the in game challenger tracker work with both dailies and rift?
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I'm a fairly disappointed Eruption isn't being nerfed.
However, I'll gladly trade no Eruption nerf for a Nurse nerf and Survivor HUD.
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So we are stuck with every killer and their mother running eruption every game ,time to bring bnps+prove every game lol
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To be fair, you haven't given any reason as to why you think that would be the case. There's a huge gap between 'Survivors can see what each other are doing' and 'The Killer is going to camp more because of that' - especially given half of all players are already playing in some sort of group. It's become a bit of a cliche to link any change to an increase in camping/tunneling/gen rushing no matter how unrelated it may be. Unless you make a strong case for it, there's not much to discuss there.
It wouldn't need nearly as much explanation if this were something directly affected unhooking (e.g. a hypothetical change that doesn't notify the Killer of an unhook) since there's a very clear connection between that change and Killers wanting to stay near the hook. But since it's not, it either needs some explaining or it can come across as grasping at straws for a reason to camp.
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Rational conversations on this forum? Madness!
On a more serious note. Both sides will have to adapt to the new hud. I predict, after some time getting used to it, that kill rates will drop and survivors will have more negative stuff to say about their teammates in the endgame chat.
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Of course the merciless killer change happens after I already have all the killer adepts.
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Happy to see the HUD update. While you´re at it, could you also look into updating the HUD for killers? Like a wiggle bar to see how much time the killer has left before the survivor breaks free. Or a hook counter that shows who was hooked how often, because honestly, i´m constantly losing track of who i hooked and accidentally hook the wrong survivor.
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I think people feel like camping/tunneling will go up because a lot of killer mains are like "this patch feels too survivor sided, killer gets nothing" so therefore the solution is to tunnel/camp out of spite since "devs are survivor favored." It tends to be the reaction in streams.
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"To be fair, you haven't given any reason as to why you think that would be the case. There's a huge gap between 'Survivors can see what each other are doing' and 'The Killer is going to camp more because of that' - especially given half of all players are playing in some sort of group. It's become a bit of a cliche to link any change to an increase in camping/tunneling/gen rushing no matter how unrelated it may be. Unless you make a strong case for it, there's not much to discuss there."
Because that was the starter to a conversation. People don't like to read large paragraphs of text. It sets up a conversation for someone to reply "oh why do you think that?" To most people it's also obvious that it's going to do that so they would simply say "yeah I think we should also do this, this and this to prevent that".
I feel this is how conversation flow happens.
I don't feel it actually needs significant pre-emptive explanation other than starting the conversation as you're saying as to most people this causing more camping/tunneling should be quite obvious. The change is going to significantly increase solo survivor gen efficiency making gens fly way faster and making killers feel the need to camp and tunnel more. I'm not saying solo information is necessarily bad, I'm just stating an obvious additional issue that will come from this to start conversation to pre-emptively fix it.
I think most players would agree that increased gen speeds cause increased camping and tunneling from lack of balanced objective times between the two sides. I don't think that's a huge gap, cliche, or even unrelated.
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I guess I'm being irrational as well by expecting rationality on forums lol.
I'm expecting something similar as well.
I think honestly the best route is making tunneling near impossible and simultaneously buff killers significantly. Serious emphasis on simultaneously, not 6 months to a year after. Also honestly, why are we years later and Endurance is still allowed to be abused for body blocking instead of just zero collision? Not only does that prevent abuse of its intended purpose but also now makes it impossible to be tunneled as you could literally just stand there untouchable as long as you don't touch any objectives.
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A bit of devil's advocate here, but more coordination for free with survivors = easier efficiency = faster gens = more LCD strategies. I don't necessarily think its a direct correlation or anything, but making solos more efficient isn't a good way to dissuade killers from trying to out-efficiency them. It'll also end up with a lot more killers throwing by doing those strats poorly and being properly punished for it, so it just feels like a bad direction overall. Even the comment on it in the summary talked about how it would free up perk slots for solos, which... kinda defeats the point of those perks in the first place. More room for more second chance and gen speed perks I guess.
I think they were talking about how the common "argument" against accessibility options for killers always comes back to "it will give them an advantage so we can't," so seeing things like the HUD update with zero counterbalance nor consideration for how it impacts multiple killers paired with a "we'll maybe make those adjustments later" attitude leaves a pretty sour taste. Knight changes and killer adept changes aren't going to stop people from getting sick while playing, and we've already seen that "freeing up perks" is considered a valid reason to change entire gameplay elements, so it just feels tonedeaf. Even the wiggle change, while generally overall positive for killer, makes an issue specific to killers who play on controller worse.
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The thing is, saying that it leads to more tunneling is such a stupid take. And it happens all the time when there is some change. At this point, it sounds more like a threat and less like a serious prediction.
Peanits said it pretty well, there is a difference between Survivors getting Icons and Survivors will actually perform in a way that Tunneling and Camping become more necessary.
Example, happening yesterday: 4 Survivors alive, Kate, Steve (both Solo), my SWF-Mate and myself. Kate is on one Hook, Steve is on a second Hook, my SWF-Mate and myself have not been hooked once.
I get hooked and see that Kate is crouching at the corner of the Map. My SWF-Mate gets hooked as well, while Steve and Kate heal. I reach second stage. Steve gets chased, hooked, died. I rescue my SWF-Mate who also reached second stage. Now it is 3v1 with 3 Gens to go, the game is probably over at this point. We managed to do one Gen each (my SWF-Mate and myself), then we both are dead. Kate gets found in a locker and DCs once she got found. She did NOTHING from the moment of her first Hook, except for being at the edge of the Map and going from Locker to Locker.
So, what would the Icons change here? Kate would still dont do anything, even if she sees that my SWF-Mate or I are working on a Gen or being in Chase.
Steve and Kate would still not go for an Unhook so that my Mate or I dont reach second stage. And they had all information available - they knew where all Survivors were (two hooked, last Survivor right next to them).
And this is the problem with those Icons. Yes, they might help. But if the Survivors are not efficient, they wont be more efficient with Icons.
And, furthermore, since tunneling and camping is mentioned - Killer is the easiest it has ever been. And STILL Killers feel the need to tunnel and camp, because the game is even easier when it is an early 3v1. So even if you buff Killers, they will still tunnel and camp. There is not really anything that can be done about it, without making really impactful changes, which can also have a pretty negative impact for the Killer. (or, to be more clear: impact, which makes playing Killer way too hard)
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Seeing a hud telling you the other two survivors are on gens indicating that you need to go for the save and telling the other survivors they can stay on gens increases gen efficiency.
You're implying that running something like Kindred for example doesn't increase gen efficiency and it does. It allows people to know when they need to go for a save and when they can just stay sitting on the gen.
Increased gen efficiency = faster the gens get done = more killers choose to camp and tunnel
This isn't a stupid take, it's blatantly obvious.
It's only the easiest it's ever been for killers if you're 4 stacking all gen regression perks and tunneling, not at base.
"There is not really anything that can be done about it, without making really impactful changes, which can also have a pretty negative impact for the Killer."
This is why my opinion for a change was to make tunneling near impossible to do. Something like being unhooked at base giving zero collision until you touch an objective. Now you literally can't be tunneled until you choose to progress the game. Simultaneously we would buff killers after they are unable to tunnel anymore.
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I feel like the killer should also be able to see hooks if survivors can see who is being chased. Also for the sake of not getting confused over the same person in dbd the killer could maybe see on the HUD who they are chasing
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We need a different health state for freshly unhooked survivors. No collision would help against the body blocking, but to help against the tunneling i´d even go as far and increase the hit protection timer to 30 seconds, as long as the gates are not powered. Since its a different health state, perks like OtR or DH could still be used after the initial hit. Making tunneling much harder and less rewarding.
I would also go back to the 5 second DS stun timer. Which honestly surprised me, that it hasn´t changed yet. Since the devs tried several times to lower the timer but went always back to 5 seconds.
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All those changes sound perfect to me!
DS should be back to 5 seconds, all it needed was to be unusable in end game.
I would even consider making the zero collision after unhook have no timer at all and just deactivate when either they do a Conspicuous action (progressing the game) or after a different survivor is hooked. These wouldn't apply after gates are powered of course or there's only 1 survivor left. I can't think of any way this is abusable unless you can?
Like I said earlier though, all under the assumption killer buffs were brought as well to make it unnecessary.
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BHVR, These are amazing changes, maybe Solo Q will be a better experience.
NOW, Can you please address the poor state of quality of Pyramid Heads Add Ons PLLLLZZZZZ. I love him as a killer, but damn, are his add ons a waste. The range add ons are the only decent ones. Stack range, rest dont do well with him.
Trapper Change idea- Can have 8 traps on the map, start with 2, but you RELOAD in a locker rather then having them spawn in dumb places. You lose so much time having to run around and pick them up, and some spawn at the edge of the map that you would never actually run to. Or change where they spawn. Say, within X distance of the trappers spawn? or X distance away from edges of the map. I think the reload would be beneficial, it opens up many more perk options for him. Iron Maiden, darkness revealed. Shift his Add ons as well :) I love trapper, but he is a headache to play now days. Rewards good strategy, but punishes mistakes
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Since its a different health state, i think it would be better it doesn´t deactivate on conspicious actions. Maybe if it gets abused. But thats something down the road.
As a incentive to decrease tunneling, they could also give a bloodpoint bonus for hooking different survivors. Like giving 25% when you hook another survivor before hooking the first one again, 50% when hooking 2 different survivors before the first one and 100% for hooking everyone once before proceeding to go for the second hook. Bloodpoint bonus is active for a minute or two after the hook.
Sure that won´t stop basement bubbas. But i think a lot of killers would at least attempt this.
Now the buffs for killers would be more individual. But i think all killers should be perfectly playable without addons. This often isn´t the case, as some killers really need certain addons to be playable. Thats where i would start buffing killers. Look at which addons are the most used, then look at why they are the most used and maybe make it basekit.
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You have absolutely no way of knowing that Kate wouldn't have been constructive with more information at hand. Most survivors will be more efficient with constant infallible information at their fingertips. Outliers prove very little.
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I get your whole style is to post a sick GOTCHA and vanish into the ether, but it's obvious that infallible mapwide information at all times frees up survivors from any uncertainty as to whether they need to be on gens. This increases efficiency and puts pressure on killers. What do killers do when three gens pop in chase? They hard camp and tunnel because facing three survivors is much more manageable than four. It also obsoletes most aura reading perks if you have the tiniest bit of game knowledge. You don't need to see auras if your can infer what the killer and everyone is doing by action icons
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I don't think it'll have a significant effect on kill rates at all, it's basically a QoL adjustment that makes Kindred slightly less necessary. Everything it shows can already be seen via Kindred, and let's face it, that information is only necessary while someone is on the hook. It doesn't replace Kindred though, it's still not precise enough. Therefore, little effect on actual game outcomes. Nice QoL though.
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Like kindred all the time, mapwide, for every action a survivor can perform or be subject to. Without taking up a perk slot.
Come on. It's a huge buff. At least be honest about it.
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Making solo's more efficient is not a bad thing, in any sense.
A lot of the balance issues in this game are caused by the relative chasm between solo survivors and SWF groups, meaning that a nerf/buff to one effects the other a lot more, and therefore its difficult to balance them against killers.
The closer SWF and solo are, the better survivors as a whole can be balanced against killers.
It would be nice to add this buff in tandem with a general killer buff to make up for it, except for the fact that we don't yet know if this will even have a significant effect for survival rates.
That said, I would have loved to see a killer FoV increase/slider alongside this. I think it's the perfect sort of change to go with it. As well as hook counters for killers. (tunnellers gonna tunnel anyway, a hook counter allows non-tunnellers to avoid doing so)
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I am being honest.
As someone who runs Kindred every single solo survivor game, this is not replacing Kindred for me.
For one, it doesn't tell me who is closest to the hook. Even if I can see the other survivors are all doing gens, how do I know if I'm the one closest to the hook and should be the one to leave my gen and go for the rescue? I'm still as clueless as I was without the icons. I'll probably wait 20 seconds and if no one has gone for the rescue, then I'll ditch my gen anyway.
How do I know that the Claudette who's Generator icon just vanished is making her way to the hook? Or if she's crouching in a corner instead?
You know what happens when I run Kindred? I'm on my first hook, 4 gens are done, and I can see the three other survivors on separate gens, and the killer isn't even camping me. I die on my first hook, despite the fact that I know those three survivors can see the killer isn't camping, and can see each other on separate gens, pointlessly holding M1 in some kind of deranged race to finish theirs first, while I die.
That happens with Kindred already, it will still happen with action icons.
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