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Simple visual explaining why Survivors shift to Gen boost meta.
If anyone feel the reason why survivors using Gen boost stuff is a mystery.
Comments
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Nice job on this
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If we're not allowed to use DS, we'll just use Prove Thyself instead.
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I do not see anything realistic in these statistics
1 hook is always at least -2 generators
I also don't see a DH that wins for at least 15 seconds and that is in every game (15 seconds for 1 survivor is 45 seconds for a generator)
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What is the last graphic supposed to indicate? And why is it one gen and one hook less than the others?
Like the first three make sense, and then you seem to arbitrarily move everything around in the last one. Why is adding gen perks removing an entire gen instead of reducing the time each one takes?
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Presumably it's all averages, average time for a gen, average time for a hook. Because the first couple gens are always faster than the remaining gens.
Would be nice to know what those averages are though, without scale, it's all just conjecture.
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Curious what second chance perk was nerfed?
DH doesnt feel like a nerf at all to me but more of a change as it's still insanely strong and on all my builds.
I guess you could say DS? But they as long as the killer isnt nurse, blight etc. You can usually make it to a tile and still does its job but that's definitely nerfed. But OTR exists so just use that over DS if needs be and you avoided a nerf technically.
I dont think killers running gen defense is a surprise though, should be very clear as to why they do it for any player with good game understanding but maybe that's just me. recently I feel I'm being mismatched in games as killers arent running stacked slowdowns or playing to the normal skill I expect and games are just flying by
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These axes have no scale and everything's just sort of arbitrary.
Like, is the entire argument here "slowdown value has remained constant but the weakening of Decisive Strike in particular is equal to an entire gen's worth of time"? That's a hard sell, since all the potentially-big, passive slowdown were nerfed even more, with slowdown all having moved to massively elongating the end of the game over anything.
I don't think I buy that DS (which can't trigger 9 times anyway) would regularly buy that much time, and it's pretty laughable to claim that the DH change means it can't get the same time out.
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My only thing is that the base game even changed after the 40 perk update.... That's it I swear
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What second chance perks were nerfed?
Post-rework Dead Hard is still incredibly strong, Borrowed Time got hard buffed, Decisive Strike got nerfed but Off the Record is just Decisive 2.0, all the exhaustion perks went untouched, Adrenaline went untouched, Unbreakable went untouched—what nerfs?
I don’t even see genrush builds that much aside from the occasional Hyperfocus toolbox gamer. Most people in my matches run Off the Record, an exhaustion perk (usually Dead Hard), Adrenaline, and Windows—aside from Windows I still see the survivor meta heavily leaning on second chances, with the occasional Prove Thyself that doesn’t do much anyways.
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Survivors running gen boost is the same reason killers run gen slow down. Because they can.
Take away one side of it won't change the other. Remove all slow down perks and survivors will still run Prove Thyself and other gen speedup perks. Because why wouldn't they?
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Simple visual, not statistics. Let you to understand it easier.
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...DS is still a perfectly fine perk. Hell, I think I saw it in nearly every Community Cup game.
...Sort of.
But it's also a bit of an oversimplification.
Most of the really reliable regression perks got nerfed, with the only outliers being CoB and Erupt. But gens didn't really get slowed much, especially when you consider how many nutty faster gen perks were added or buffed out the wazoo.
Add to this the fact that info perks start getting redundant, or are nearly useless on certain killers and that chase perks, with maybe two exceptions, being pretty mediocre.
So killers bring regression because they might not have any fantastic options, and because gens are flying right now.
If you want killers to stop running deep regression, you'll need to nerf faster gen items/perks, nerf regression perks further and then buff gen times substantially. And that's probably never going to happen.
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BorrowedTime, Deadhard were 2 difference heal states. Despite they use 2 perk slots.
New BT, DH, OTR can be disable with a single hit off hook. Despite they use 3 perk slots.
For the BT get buffed. But you may prefer another candy, than have your 1 candy get bigger in size.
DH is still dirty and punish killers who play fair, thats for sure.
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-"I do not see anything realistic in these statistics"
These stats emulate low MMR where the game is semi balanced. It has no reflection of "real" play at high MMR where the survivors are in control of the game unless the killer is Blight/Nurse.
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Survivors run gen speed perks because they are powerful and make them win easier, same with killers using slowdown. There’s no mystery, people run whatever makes them win.
Even if killers didn’t run slowdown, survivors would still run gen speed and killers would still run slowdown if survivors didn’t run gen speed.
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I would mention that there's a lot of gen slowdown/regression/blocking perks and many of them are pretty strong. Most of the 'genrush' perks aren't actually that good.
Haddie's one that you cleanse a totem and then do gens faster, it's awful and no one uses it.
Rebecca's one where you heal someone and they do gens faster, it's awful and no one uses it.
Vittorio's one where you get chased near someone doing a gen and they do it faster, it's awful and no one uses it.
Even Yun Jin's one where your teammates get hooked and you get tokens you can spend to instantly get gen progress, which is actually a 'decent' perk, no one uses it.
The only gen-speed perks survivors commonly use are Prove Thyself, which is decent but it's impact is not as strong as most people imply it is, and is mostly used for the bloodpoint bonus, and Hyperfocus, which is only decent with Stake Out -and- a toolbox, -and- is still ultimately heavily RNG.
The 'genrush' meta is mostly just good survivors prioritising gens efficiently, which has a FAR bigger effect on match length than any 'genrush build'.
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BT is basically base though, I never used it before and now it's free with haste so it's kinda waste using the perk now, if everyone uses OTR (meta perk) you dont need BT and its void completely.
While you're right you cant use DH after being put in mend via OTR, that OTR lasts so long and gives you a free health state in that time you dont really need to use DH as well.
But if you use OTR, DS, DH none conflict with each other as when you go down to use DS your mending state is gone so all you need do is replace BT in the old meta with OTR and now you're even harder to tunnel than before so its actually a buff in that aspect of second chances.
I personally dont see the point in BT unless it's a comp game where you cant have repeat perks, but we cant use that because basic games dont follow that rule.
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-"The only gen-speed perks survivors commonly use are Prove Thyself, which is decent but it's impact is not as strong as most people imply"
Prove with two people allows you to finish a generator so fast that most killers cannot contest its completion. This is absolutely brutal with efficient play when you keep trading one hook for one generator. Prove with a regular toolbox just makes things worse. it allows you to break almost any three gen setup.
"The 'genrush' meta is mostly just good survivors prioritising gens efficiently, which has a FAR bigger effect on match length than any 'genrush build'."
This I will agree with. Most people don't waste time with chests/totems/hook sabotage if they want to win. Most survivors use the extra 15 seconds of the hook timer to finish gens instead of securing a save before the killer is ready.
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Killers will never stop using regression perks no matter how hard they nerf gen speed. People will always choose the easiest way to win, same goes for survivors.
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That's if you equip three perks though. And DS by itself was comparable before the 40% stun duration cut.
DS should never have had its stun cut. It was tailored for one specific instance and required a LOT of cooperation from the killer to make it work.
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Thats the point, Gen boost perks/item is the second set of survivor's thing that to increase the chance to escape.
Old 2nd chances were extremely strong and the times it gives survivors' healthy state to prolong chase time is totally out class the time saved on Gen by Gen perks.
Now 2nd chances nerfed and the time saving between 2nd chance perks vs Gen boost are closer, survivors can have a choice to pick between those 2 builds.
Once everyone understand the game isnt designed for them to win 90% of the time, the game will be rather chill, even with meme builds.
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You've never won a game with 5 gens still up before?
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Most of the time you get value out of Prove it's through 2-manning a gen, and Prove only saves you 7 seconds off the entire gen time in that scenario. While that's still good of course, it's nothing game-changing on it's own. If 3-manning a gen you save 10 seconds and if 4-manning a gen (something very rare) it saves 13 seconds.
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You're looking at everything in a vacuum. If you have skilled survivors who make 10 great checks per game that saves 48 seconds for the survivor team. That's about 10 seconds of time saved per generator. Combine that with Prove and you saved 17 seconds. Add in a toolbox and then you can save 25 seconds. See the problem?
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To an extent. People have a tendancy to focus solely on Prove and claim it's overpowered when it simply isn't. Heck you could swap out Prove with Fast Track and often get even more time shaved off of a gen, or run them both and add even more gen-speed to the mix, but you don't see that. Survivors aren't running 4 gen speed perks with the best toolboxes every game. Some of them will every now and then but in my experience playing as killer I just don't see it. They run Prove, sometimes Hyperfocus or Resilience and sometimes a toolbox (and sometimes they don't even run Hyperfocus with a toolbox or even Stake Out).
My point is that yes, I can see how stacking a bunch of gen speed perks/items could be an issue, but most survivors don't tend to even do that. Then killers ask BHVR to nerf individual perks that don't even speed up gens a massive amount, it just doesn't make sense.
Prove Thyself doesn't need a nerf, it isn't all that strong and often other, much lesser-used gen speed perks would be more effective, but people don't run them. Prove is mostly ran for the BP and if they removed the BP bonus Prove would drop probably even lower than Resilience.
I know I'm kind of going a bit all over with this but I don't think any individual source of gen-speed is currently a problem in the game, and if combining them was as effective as people often complain it is, I figure we'd see survivors bringing genrush builds a lot more into matches but we really don't. Survivors still mostly bring 'second chance' perks, exhaustion perks, Windows of Opportunity and medkits, and throw a Prove Thyself on.
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I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that OTR is as strong as old DS. OTR is only good against proxy camping killers who are tunneling. A hard tunneling killer can completely delete OTR by hitting the unhooked survivor immediately. With DS you had to leave the survivor slugged for up to a minute or eat it. With OTR you also get deep wound so you can't even use dead hard with it. Old DS>>>>>>>>>>>>
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-"I don't think any individual source of gen-speed is currently a problem in the game"
Brand new parts are not really fun to play against and never have been. Imagine if all killers got a generic addon that made your first hook stage -20 seconds. That's fun right? If not then Brand new Parts should not be in the game anymore.
Hyperfocus should not work with toolboxes to give you more skill checks (see autodidact). Hyperfocus should not work with stake out to get greats when you really only deserved good checks. To put this into perspective when Huntress was released she could use play with your food and gain 9% speed and never m1 (at the time hatchets did not take away stacks). These are pretty equal levels of cheese. Just imagine if Demo, Nemesis and Huntress could play with play with your food and not lose stacks on "alternate" damage hits. Is that ok? No it isn't.
The reality is that any perk or item you bring should stop giving any generator progress after you save 9 seconds of time. The issue with gen speeds is when you stack a few things and suddenly you make a generator -20 or -40 seconds. Otz has a video he made a few months ago about how medkits and toolboxes can be completely overpowered or nearly garbage. You should give it a watch.
To be perfectly honest we should probably just make toolboxes only be for breaking hooks.
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Yeah but I'm saying the only perk actually nerfed was DS but it doesnt make it weak just OTR has completely replaced it and if anything the biggest nerf to DS is the deactivation on end game.
My point was only DS was nerfed while OTR replaced it, BT was made base, DH was just a change and not a nerf and if you stack them all (OTR,DS,DH not BT as that's base) it's now stronger than it use to be.
I'm not sure what your experience was before but perks like DS, DH, BT, UB etc. Was always so meta and I would see 3+ each every game so saying"thats 3 perks" doesnt mean much as survivors have always stacked them anyway except not BT is base so you get a free extra choice and OTR replaces DS so of anything survivors are the same with less perks used or if they choose to use more perks like all 3 it's been made stronger.
I still see alot of the same meta on survivor, main difference now is OTR has replaced DS but some still use it even with OTR and BT is now base so it's like survivors who ran bt before have 5 perks now meanwhile the killer meta has changed far more in perks being used, except Scourage pain which is still common but used far less than before
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OTR doesn't work as anti-tunnel since it's circumvented by the killer just tunnelling harder.
And yes, people used to bring DS, DH, BT and UB, but only DS was there for anti-tunnel, with a tangential mention of UB for when killers just left the tunnel victim slugged. Now you need OTR AND DS in order to have -any- anti-tunnel.
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Nah.
Haddie's thing is actually decent.
HSFP (Hyperfocus Stakeout Fogwise PTS) is absolute nightmare fuel if it's an SWF. I had a game on Ghosty where they sent me to Gideon, and I...literally couldn't kill them fast enough.
They weren't even running me well. Just run run pallet run run pallet down.
In the meantime a gen has popped. And by the time I've hooked, another is half done. The game lasted...maybe 6-7 minutes, and perhaps half of it was me trying to defend gates.
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OTR legit gives you a free extra health state off hook... that is anti tunnel.
It's also the reason why OTR is on all my builds, while DS use to be OTR does the same thing but better now as a stand alone perk.
People used UB with DS because it was a win win situation, people dont use DS as much so they use UB even less.
OTR is a great anti tunnel perk, and if you feel the need to run multiple stacked anti tunnel perks to get any value then I'd say that you're lacking in other areas of the game and should try and improve on those like leading a better chase, OTR alone provide you a second chance and lasts so long that if the hit isnt instantly then the killers wasting alot of time.
I feel you're expecting one perk to do all the work for you and make you immune... that's not what anti tunnel is meant to be. Anti tunnel is to help against tunneling, OTR does that alone by giving you a free health state just by being unhooked...
And like I said if you stack anti-tunnel perks now its actually stronger than before and therefore not really a nerf like my point was, only DS is a nerf if looked at singularly which is why OTR is used instead
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"I don't know how anyone can say with a straight face that OTR is as strong as old DS."
-Lasts longer
-Can't be countered by slugging
-Has beneficial effects beyond the endurance
-On-hit boost grants just as much if not more distance than old Decisive
-Single easiest-to-use bodyblocking perk in the entire game
I'm sorry but OTR wins, high diff.
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I never understood this logic of "You counter OTR by tunneling harder." Not only is that true for old Decisive, it's true for any and all anti-tunneling mechanics in this entire game. The single biggest counter to anti-tunneling perks and strategies is to simply tunnel through them in the same way that countering gen slowdown is to simply do gens through the slowdown. That's not a unique counter to OTR in the slightest.
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No, I mean that if you tunnel hard enough to hit a survivor while they're under the effect of baseline BT, OTR is disabled entirely. This didn't happen with DS. You could smack someone directly under hook, but if you then picked them up, you'd get stunned.
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Compare new OTR and old DS. Yes the perk itself OTR would be god tier in old 2nd chances meta. Where BT wasnt basekit.
-There is basekit BT now, but again, hit them off hook cause disable OTR. You down a DS survivor forced to slug them.
-The slug you have to wait gain them to recharge Dead hard
-Old DS forced killer to slug, which make Unbreakable extremely strong. New DS make Unbreakable hardly used.
You cant just compare the perks, but how a perk can be combo with other things, like Thana is weak but its strong with Plag/Legi
Just like Undying was totally untouched in 40 perks rework, yet no one uses then because Ruin hard nerf, because how strong Ruin is, is how strong Undying is
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-I don't know about you but I'd much rather be having a survivor on the ground doing absolutely nothing than having to continue chasing them because I either hit them through BT or waited BT out just to get smacked with OTR.
-Just use literally any other exhaustion perk. I get it, DH is still busted, and you're losing out on that bustedness when you proc OTR's endurance hit. But you know what else is still busted? Free distance. And the other exhaustion perks give you free distance, even if you have Deep Wound.
-Unbreakable is still hilariously strong. Just because the small pp build got nerfed doesn't mean a perk that can single-handedly turn a hard loss into a hard win because the killer dared not to hook you isn't strong.
Post edited by LiveBritishReaction on1
