http://dbd.game/killswitch
Hatch is poorly designed.
Survivors
Hatch incentivizes survivors to hide and do nothing until everyone else dies so they have a chance at hatch - something that is against the rules and can lead to a ban. Why? Because a survivor can do nothing all game and still escape.
Killers
Hatch incentivizes killers to slug if they want the 4K, because not doing so is strategically stupid - which is typically unfun for the one slugged. Why? Because not slugging gives a better chance for the last survivor to escape. The third is caught in the crossfire between the last and killer.
Conclusion
For Hatch to not be problematic, both of these issues need to be addressed. Hiding and doing nothing should not allow Hatch, and similarly, a killer’s best strategy for the 4K should incentivize killing the third survivor off instead of slugging.
Comments
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Without the hatch they will sit and hide for as long as it takes for the killer to find them.
Maybe its really the player and not the mechanic.
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Waiting for hatch isn’t against the rules (I believe Mandy stated such a couple months back). Deliberating playing in a griefing or trolling way is. Survivors don’t have to complete gens to advance the trial. They can wait for hatch and play as selfishly as they want and that is perfectly fine. Peanits specifically said survivors can play for themselves if they want.
Post edited by Gcarrara on5 -
Wrong. You are required to attempt to repair.
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So then implement a mechanic that reveals survivors hiding and doing nothing to the killer. Then hiding becomes certain death.
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So you want to create a solid lose/lose situation where the survivors are forced to lose, without any control on their part?
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The thing is that waiting for hatch is okay if you're the only one doing it.
If your teammate is dying being slugged, it's okay to wait for hatch. The game is progressing, since in a couple minutes the slug will die. If 2 or more survivors are hard stealthing and not doing gens, then the game literally can't progress.
I think hatch is an important mechanic in the game, because snowballing is extremely common, and since it's a 4v1, entire games could be doomed for all survivors from the first 30s (like, if someone DCs or gives up on first hook). In cases where it's impossible to come back from one early mistake that was beyond your control, hatch is the last hope that makes sure not everything is about the snowball.
I wouldn't be against a system that would be akin to : 4 different potential hatches exist, invisible, in the game. One for each survivor. For your hatch to spawn when you'll be the last survivor alive, you have to have done a certain number of actions. It could even be a side objective, like going to flip a switch on a corner of the map , the aura of which you see once you've done the equivalent of 1 gen of repair or been chased for a total of 1 minute. It would add a side objective to slow down the gens.
That way, you couldn't just wait for hatch doing nothing else for the team.
It wouldn't solve the problem of the "2 last survivors each want for the other to be found first", but that's a game design problem that's not linked directly to the hatch, it's about how the objective for survivor is impossible to achieve in some circonstances, and it would need more reworks to be fixed.
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If you’re at 2 survivors left and you still haven’t completed the generators, if the killer has a brain, you lost regardless. Also the control survivors had was not ending up in that situation in the first place.
Much like how if a killer gets no one on death hook or dead when gates are open and the survivors play it well, that is at least guaranteed 3 out if not 4. By that point, it already has long since reached a tipping point. The chance to change things has mostly already passed. Yeah, a last second turnaround is possible, but extremely unlikely without a miracle or massive misplays.
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If one is already downed, yes. If not, no.
Your idea is interesting. I had a similar concept recently where the hatch outright would not spawn unless enough progression (chase/gens/etc) was done, and only survivors with enough PERSONAL amount of progression could use the hatch. So between Survivor A that does a ton and Survivor B that does nothing, B literally can’t use the hatch. Furthermore, that the hatch could spawn at 2 left instead of 1, meaning killer would be incentivized to kill the third ASAP so fourth doesn’t have enough time to get the progression to escape.
Furthermore, only one person of the two could use the hatch and EGC starts after. EGC was also changed so unless the remaining survivor got enough progression, gates also will not be powered unless all gens are done. This way, they can’t just hide and hope to get a gate escape instead. Obviously, this would mean gens are still reparable instead of auto completed and blocked.
Pair that with survivors that hide and do nothing being revealed by Killer Instinct, and hiding becomes guaranteed death.
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Hon, the hatch is an in-game mechanic, and waiting to escape through it is a normal gameplay strategy. Because it is an in-game mechanic. But if you’re convinced survivors who wait for hatch are breaking a rule, let’s ask a dev in real time. :)
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Please stop spreading blatant lies, thanks. You have the posts from devs you can look through. Clicking on them leads you to the original thread. It’s okay to be wrong, but it’s important you learn from your mistakes.
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Except it's way easier to get an endgame kill than it is to clear multiple gens when there's 3 or fewer survivors left. Take away the hatch, survivors literal only avenue for victory in a LOT of matches is to just hold the game hostage until the killer gives up.
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Let me reword what I said earlier: Being in that situation means you already lost.
Hiding and doing nothing should not be an avenue for victory, ever.
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Except hiding is a key part of the game.
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Well it's not a solid lose lose situation I think they are wanting something better than AFK crows that can't be so easily manipulated to not activate to prevent the reportable Survivor Hostage situation
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Hiding and refusing to repair or do anything to progress the game is different from something like hiding when killer comes around. The first is against the rules because you literally are refusing to participate in normal gameplay. The second is not.
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Also the fact that the game can put them in a situation where doing gens is a guaranteed loss doesnt help
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Not necessarily. If one side is overwhelmingly dominating the others, of course the number of options available that aren’t accepting losing will drastically decrease. Killing 2 survivors before gens are done/Opening gate before anyone is dead is a one-sided beatdown. That doesn’t mean it’s an issue (outside of matchmaking/solo queue issues maybe). It means one side did a lot better than the other.
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That argument never flies when people talk about getting camping and tunnelling nerfed, strangely.
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Sadly if they refuse to try and repair Gens even if it's a loss is against the rules and holding the game hostage. Survivors HAVE to attempt to reapair Gens to progress the game.... so hiding, locker hoping, avoiding afk crows just to "wait out for the hatch" is a no go
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The way you make camping and tunneling go down is by buffing leaving the hook and buffing chasing someone that isn’t the unhooked survivor. Which I support. Doesn’t make this not whataboutism though.
People that do it just because they want to will do it no matter what and no amount of nerfs in the world will stop them.
People that do it because of strategy will do it less if leaving the hook and chasing someone who isn’t the unhooked survivor is more rewarding.
For example: Post-Unhook Endurance buffed to 15s but collision is removed so they cannot bodyblock for allies. If gens aren’t done, it is 15s of Invincibility instead. Deactivates under same conditions as Endurance would.
Hooking a survivor that isn’t the most recent unhooked gives a reward. For example, most progressed generator is damaged by X%, or all gens are damaged by a lower Y% or so.
Leaving 24m? or so radius of the hook gives a reward as long as you stay out if it unless you are chasing someone in those 24m. For example, basekit Ruin-like temporary effect to reward pushing survivors off other generators, or BBQ style aura to chase someone else.
Hook grabs are removed but all unhook speed bonus sources are removed and unhook becomes uncancellable. Attacking someone unhooking has a static unalterable cooldown. This way, camping can be a guaranteed trade but not preventing the unhook altogether, and means divebombing hook still requires a trade.
And obviously, slowdown perks/second chance perks/etc would be readjusted to fit/nerfed or changed as necessary.
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What are you talking about "refusing to participate in normal gameplay"? And who defines this? If there's one or two people left they're not obligated to sit on the gens just so they're "participating" in the match the way you want. I highly doubt BHVR is going to start punishing people in the ridiculous way you're suggesting. Make arguments effective with logic, not Hyperbole.
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Survivors HAVE to progress the game by repairing Gens. Mandy and Peanits have discussed this multiple times when this topic comes up. If Survivors don't or refuse to repair Gens NO MATTER what the reasons are they are liable to be banned for Holding the Game hostage if they are reported with video evidence.
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You will be surprised.
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Surprising I guess I was speaking with logic lol
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It's understandable, you know. It's not super intuitive thing, sometimes trying to repair generators is clearly stupid and hopless idea. It's not fair to be punished for playing smart. Especially because hiding is reportable only if all players do that. Either I repair gen and get caught or we both get reported, then why me? Why can't this other guy repair generators and give himself to killer while I'm waiting for hatch?
It's a flaw in game design and need to be fixed somehow, but yeah, for now hiding with no slugs for 4k involved is a hostage situation which agains the rules and can be punished.
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The hostage situation with two survivors left over is only considered bannable if it's for an extended period of time. So, hiding for a minute or two isn't going to get you banned, I doubt at least. Whereas, hiding for 5+ minutes is starting to get excessive.
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Well, if you hide for only 2 minutes and then go to killer or repair gens, you can't actually say smth about trying to outlive each other for hatch, right?
And we are talking about situations when both survivors understand clearly they can't finish gens and their only option is to hide for hatch; then they potentially can hide till server's shut down.
Those situations can be 2 minutes long in two cases: 1) one survivor is bad hide-and-seek player (could be on purpose to speed up the process), 2) killer is better searcher. Both cases are kinda make those situations dissapear, hence there's nothing to be mad about and nothing to make you think about reporting anyone.
But if you can't find anyone for so long that you WANT to report them - then your report will be completely valid. Peanits himself says about 30 mins, but I guess after 5-10 minutes of searching you'd be pissed off enough already, so yeah, I think 5+ minutes is a pretty good landmark :D
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They really should make it to where if you don't touch gens for like 60 seconds your aura is revealed. Period. No excuse not to do that at this point.
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If you took literally 5 seconds to scroll up, you would realize you are blatantly wrong.
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It's also situational.
For example, in a 'slugging for the 4k' scenario, it takes 4 minutes for survivor #3 to bleed out, then looking for hatch, then up to 2 minutes for the EGC exit gates standoff.
In that situation, they've specifically said that hiding isn't 'excessive or reportable' because the game is considered to be 'progressing' the entire time.
But even though that could lead to 6+ minutes of constant stealthing by the final survivor, the last person isn't required to work on gens while the other survivor is bleeding out.
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It's always the solution offered by killer players: 'Just buff killers out the wazoo and we'll tunnel less!'
Except 6.1 proved that to not be the case.
But this is also part of what I mean with the whole 'that argument doesn't fly'. This whole idea that 12-hooking is too difficult doesn't take killer skill into account the same way that you're fine with forcing survivors to lose because 'the other side just played better'. Say they did everything you asked for, what's to stop you or any other killer from coming back here on the forums as soon as they get a 2K instead of a 4K, to complain about how they're feeling forced to tunnel, because even with gigantanormous buffs to killer, they're still not competent enough to 12-hook?
Not to mention that camping/tunnelling are currently low effort, high reward strategies, so leaving them untouched will keep them as viable options. Yes, you can never truly and completely solve those two, but you can at least make it so killers frustrate themselves more than their opponents with some really simple changes that have already been tried and proven effective. They just got axed because killers whinged about it.
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I wish I was as good as you at ignoring literally everything else except just what I want to read after blatant whataboutisms in an unrelated topic. Tunneling and camping are employed as strategies. The game should not be balanced around 12-hooking, because that's a target balance of a 100% guaranteed kill-rate. But tunneling and camping should not be the most incentivized strategies for killers to employ in the first place. Playing without tunneling and camping should be more desirable.
Also, I've already literally stated in that post that people that want to tunnel or camp regardless will do so no matter what no matter how many nerfs you give to those playstyles. Because those people don't care in the first place whether it's actually a good strategy or not. People that complain that they're not competent enough to 12-hook every game and expect the game to change for their sake are moronic and entitled.
Camping and tunneling are high risk options against better players, but difficult for less-experienced players to deal with. Which is literally why if you bothered reading what I said at all in that post, you'd realize that's why I enormously strengthened anti-camping and anti-tunneling measures, in return for buffing playing without camping or tunneling. Then if a killer wants to tunnel or camp regardless for some reason, it's much easier for survivors to deal with even at lower skill levels.
And what "simple changes" are you talking about that got axed? I'd like some proof.
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Playing without tunneling and camping should be more desirable.
Yes, and you can achieve that by nerfing tunnelling and camping. Because aiming for the other way around means buffing killers out the wazoo. Currently, tunnelling (And to a lesser extent camping) are the most efficient tactics available. If you want to make 12-hooking more attractive, you'll have to make it easier, more consistent and more reliable than tunnelling and camping.
Also, I've already literally stated in that post that people that want to tunnel or camp regardless will do so no matter what no matter how many nerfs you give to those playstyles.
No. Because if a killer that hard tunnels has to chew through a variety of anti-tunnel measures and is basically guaranteed to prove himself a salty loser, that's probably going to massively diminish the prevalence of tunnelling.
Conversely, you can buff 12-hooking until it's 'more desirable', but that doesn't mean that people can't just knock out a quick 4K by still just tunnelling. You acknowledge that there's going to be people that will continue to tunnel and camp, but then you're opposed to taking the nerfbat directly to them, as if kindly asking them to stop is going to dissuade them from being major trolls.
you'd realize that's why I enormously strengthened anti-camping and anti-tunneling measures
All you suggested was to increase the duration of baseline BT! Which we already know doesn't work, because it's functionally barely distinct from what we have currently!
And what "simple changes" are you talking about that got axed? I'd like some proof.
DS got its stun duration cut by 40%, and Reassurance got a double nerf to its usability, restricting it to, literally, ONCE PER MATCH. Both of these perks were focused on specifically countering tunnelling and camping and both got -decimated- by the changes.
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Whatever makes you feel better.
😫
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But you literally said a statement that made no sense to me when SmolBlob posted some of the most recent responses from Mandy and Peanits about the very thing I said about Survivors refusal to play the game and hide.
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I love how the topic has devolved into survivors crying about tunnelling and camping. Both are terrible strategies; both waste time in a game where time equals gens completed. The only time I can think that it makes sense to camp is towards the end of the game, like just before or at EGC, if you have no kills OR there are only two survivors left. Not much sense in not camping the second last survivor; otherwise, the other remaining survivor will go for the save, and you get to play hide and seek until you finally manage to kill one of the survivors. Then the last survivor gets multiple chances to escape the game. First via hatch, then by an exit gate and then by the other exit gate—lots of second chances for the last survivor in the game.
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Most devolve into camping and Tunneling by the same few people I have noticed. It's like they want to use that as a counter argument to something and then more jump onto the band wagon. So the original topic becomes lost.
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Which is why my initial post covered literally both buffing non-tunneling/camping and nerfing tunneling/camping, but it seems like you either can't read or willingly refuse to read.
People that tunnel or camp because they don't care do it no matter what. They don't care if it's inefficient. They do it out of stupid reasons like trying to spite the other survivors.
The goal isn't to buff 12-hooking into viability, it's to make camping and tunneling not the best strategies.
"Opposed to taking the nerfbat directly to them" as I say that pre-endgame basekit BT should be literal invincibility instead and to remove hook grabs entirely so that survivors can at least always guaranteed trade rather than be grabbed off entirely. Please don't bother replying if you're going to blatantly ignore everything said that doesn't match what you want to read. It's a waste of everyone's time.
DS stun duration nerf was stupid. Reassurance nerf was also stupid.
Also, I don't know why you're ranting about topics that have literally nothing to do with the original thread. Go make one about tunneling/camping if you want to talk about it that much. This thread is about hatch incentivizing poor design. Whataboutism gets you nowhere.
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So what i gathered. I believe in order to prevent a report game hostage on the survivors end is to at least show that the gens have progressed a bit even if the killer hasnt found you for an extended time.
You cant get banned if you at least have shown you have done a little of progress regardless of how long it takes. You're still progressing the game....little by little of course even if ur hiding alot.
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All of these comments were made before the hatch was changed, which would show the hatch to multiple survivors alive, now, as the hatch literally cannot be available AND closed to multiple survivors anymore, not everything these people have said means a lot as the rules have changed, one survivor cannot "hide forever" and wait for hatch because the hatch will only show when they're the only one alive, which means it will be immediately opened and possible to be closed.
If what you're saying is true, than survivors would literally be breaking the rules by not saving the last survivor.
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???
It means the survivors are forbidden from hiding and waiting for the others to die so they can try to get hatch. For example, if there’s two survivors left and both are standing (read: not downed or hooked), they are required to work on gens. Not doing so is against the rules. If one of the last two is downed or hooked, then it’s not because hook timer/bleed out timer is only a few minutes and guaranteed finite.
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Survivors are not "forbidden" from waiting for the survivors to die, if it's something that happens for a long period of time yes, but this is a situation that very rarely happens and doesn't mean that hatch needs to be changed.
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The goal isn't to buff 12-hooking into viability, it's to make camping and tunneling not the best strategies.
Except:
People that tunnel or camp because they don't care do it no matter what.
So camping and tunnelling need to not just be 'not the best strategies', they need to be wholly incompetent. And you don't achieve that with a 15 second grace period or 'guaranteed trades'.
Also, I don't know why you're ranting about topics that have literally nothing to do with the original thread. Go make one about tunneling/camping if you want to talk about it that much. This thread is about hatch incentivizing poor design. Whataboutism gets you nowhere.
To remind you: You came up with the argument that lose/lose situations are fine if one side outskills the other too much, to which I replied that that argument has never flown for when killers are on the losing end, as evidenced by how tunnelling and camping are treated on the forums.
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You could just check the dev responses and realize you’re wrong.
Again, go make a thread about that if you want to rant about something else. Whataboutism gets you nowhere.
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As long as you are attempting to actually progress the game, yes. Note, that does not mean tapping a gen for 0.01s and then going back to hiding.
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The game should not be balanced around 12 hooks, because the kill rate isnt about balanced around 100% kill but 60%. Which is around 2 to 10 hooks, and this hooks gap is just to far away make it impossible to balance.
It should be balanced around 6-10 hooks (2 survivors with 3 hooks ; or 3 survivors with 3 hooks).
There are suggestion that to encourage killers to spread hooks, but no reward as great as removing 1/3 survivors' Gen power.
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Idk what the alternative would be, but un-popular opinion..I don’t think hatch should exist.
The race to hatch is purely luck, unless you bring perks or add ons that lead you to it, then it requires even less skill…
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had the last two survivors hide for literally about ten minutes, not doing any gens at all, just waiting for the other survivor to die. It’s a huge waste of my time. It’s not fun. It’s not playing the game.
If you’ve wasted that much of my time, not playing, I will then slug you without regret and find your mate, because no one deserves hatch at that point.
If I find one, because they are actually still working while the other has been hiding, I will let that one leave and on the same note, make sure the hiding one definitely isn’t.
It feels more like it allows people to play in an unsportsmanlike way, just for the mere chance of hatch escape. Which didn’t require skill, just luck. And sometimes, the killer had a hard match and really deserves their 4k…knowing if they slugged, the 4th would not have escaped. But I don’t like to slug for the 4k so idk…I just think hatch wastes everyone’s time. It holds up the game, no one plays, everyone hides.
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In my honest opinion, I think the current hatch mechanic is (generally) okay/fair. Much, much better than the old days when 2 or more survivors would teabag right in front of you and use a key to open the hatch at 2 gens.
The way I see it is: the hatch spawn is pretty random, so both the killer and the survivor have a pretty equal chance of finding it first. It's pretty much down to luck and game RNG, which, in my opinion, is as fair as the hatch mechanic can be.
I do agree that 'slugging for the hatch' can be pretty annoying, particularly if you're the slugged survivor. Similarly, trying to find a stealthy survivor who wants the hatch and is not willing to pick-up their teammate or attempt a gen can also be annoying as killer. But, it's important to consider that the game still moves forward as the slugged survivor would eventually bleed-out anyway and one of you will get their first either way. Boring gameplay imo, and when I play killer or survivor I refuse to play in this way. I'd rather at least try and get more BP's even if it costs me a kill or an escape. As I said though, I don't know how they can fix this issue.
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The problem is when they’re all standing and hiding. Finding them is unrealistic without spending an insane amount of time. The survivors break the rules and refuse to play the game. So the game can’t end.
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