Eruption Rework Suggestion
Credit to the youtuber "leek" for inspiring me.
In this rework, Eruption would work as normal except the explosion no longer applies incapacitated. Instead, affected healthy survivors would become injured and experience something like the perk Renewal. These survivors would be broken but lose the broken status effect and return to a healthy status within a fixed period of time (unless put into deep wound, downed, etc.) Affected survivors already injured are put into deep wound.
I have attempted to retain a form of regression combined with a form of vulnerability. When it explodes, this generator will still have regressed, and the killer knows the screaming survivors are vulnerable for a short time. Should the killer slug for a chance to snowball? Or is slugging too much of a gamble, and the slow-down itself is sufficient? Conversely, should the survivor continue to repair and bait the killer from hooking another survivor? Or would such pressure be more of a risk than its worth?
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Comments
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The only way to lose a health state currently is by interactions with the killer or the killer's power. Having a perk that takes a health state on it's own, let alone one that would do so from anywhere on the map is obscenely overpowered and would be impossible to balance.
The synergy with blood echo alone would be enough to snowball into several hooks, especially if the killer has any mobility whatsoever.
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No. Stop asking for nerfs. Get good.
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I see what you're getting at here, and I do like that it's an attempt at making Eruption more of a nuanced, decision-making perk rather than just a flat 'screw you', but I do have two concerns.
One, I think it would be simpler and smoother to just inflict Exposed instead of the whole pseudo-Renewal effect. It's the same general outcome, survivors being vulnerable to one-hit downs, without the weird precedent of a perk that injures, even if temporarily.
Second, I think this would fix a lot of Eruption's problems, but it'd retain the one issue in that it would only consistently work against solo queue-- those on comms can coordinate when they're about to go down and tell people to let go of generators. It's not 100% of the time, obviously, but imo that's one of the issues with Eruption that should be looked at in the same overhaul.
Side note, this isn't helpful. "Get good" is a joke of a response, literally, and "stop asking for nerfs" is pretty ill-fitting when we're talking about the only overpowered perk the game currently has. Eruption obviously needs something done to it.
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I know it isnt helpful but that's what survivors tell me when I complain that I see 3 or 4 dead hard's every single game...
Also: "Get good" is a joke of a response, literally, and "stop asking for nerfs" is pretty ill-fitting when we're talking about the only overpowered perk the game currently has. Eruption obviously needs something done to it.
Dead Hard and Borrowed Time would like a word with you, sir.
Stop complaining that killers have 1 perk that isn't meh at best.
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Didn't see this until now, oops.
If you're able to recognise it as unhelpful and crummy when others say it to you, surely you'll see that it's unhelpful and crummy when you say it to others, right?
As for your second point, what about BT is overpowered? I can see why people might think DH is, even if I disagree, but I genuinely don't see what's supposedly overpowered about BT. Also, even if it were, that doesn't change that Eruption is also overtuned and in need of a change.
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Ok, BT by itself on 1 player is not overpowered. The problem arrises when there are multiples in the match. Taking down a survivor takes an extra hit. This might not sound like a whole lot but it in fact is as you, as the killer, have to do it for 3 hooks that take 3 hits each now instead of 2 times 4 survivors. When you hit you do whatever it is in the swing-cooldown period which lasts 2.7 seconds.
This mean that if everything goes to plan and I strike perfectly in that I never miss then we are talking:
2.7 x 3 x 3 x 4 = 97.2 seconds standing around doing f all, instead of
2.7 x 3 x 2 x 4 = 64.8 seconds...
This assumes perfection from both sides, but that doesn't matter because as survivors will sometimes have bad timing with their DH, so will the killer with his strikes.
And you lot complain about Eruption miracling a hit every now and again. This doesn't disable your entire team where Dead Hard literally causes this effect on all of the killer as it provides, as you can see, provides a much greater delay. At will and for free, no if's involved. It's cummulative effect is insane. So if DH isn't overpowered then neither is Eruption. Can't have it both ways.
Borrowed Time is overpowered because of the body blocking that it enables and thereby wasting the even more hit recovery time on the killer. Body blocking is a stupid concept that shouldn't be in this game in the first place but BHVR doesn't seem to think it is absurd for people to jump in front of chainsaws, knives, swords, maces and whatnot. That 10 seconds it grants is bogus. Taking a hit for someone else should be at great peril, especially when the exit gates are open this is particularly annoying with the sprint survivors get from being hit which generally results in: invulnerable by BT... invulnerable by DH... hit... sprint past someone else who then body blocks... its a bunch of bullshit. Body blocking should carry WAY more risk than it currently does... Absolutely ridiculous.
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That sounds a lot less like BT being overpowered, and more like bodyblocking (via any means, not just BT; in fact, BT is the easiest to avoid since it's only temporary and only after unhook) being kind of annoying? Even then, it's only really in the endgame where it actually matters, your maths up there assumes that you're going to even be in a position to swing into BT every single time that someone is unhooked and that they want to bodyblock every single time instead of just trying to run away. It also assumes that without BT you'll only have to hit each survivor twice, if I'm understanding this right, but... what about healing, or other sources of Endurance? It seems really arbitrary.
Next, when you're comparing Dead Hard and Eruption, you're doing it kind of weirdly? Like, nobody cares about Eruption "miracling a hit", it's not the kind of perk where the value it provides is getting the killer damage, it's a slowdown perk. People think it's unfairly strong at slowing the game down and that it does it in a way that's extremely obnoxious to play against, which are very different complaints. Additionally, Dead Hard has far more achievable counterplay in almost all scenarios, whereas Eruption's counterplay is "hope you're on comms".
Finally, it kind of feels like you're assuming the complaints about Eruption must only be on the side of those who care about survivor experiences over killer experiences, but just anecdotally I'm a killer main and I want Eruption changed. I don't like that it's either overpowered or almost useless depending on whether I happen to queue against SWF, I would like to see it brought to a reasonable middle ground that works roughly equally against either SWF or solo queue.
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I just finished 40mins game. Against blight. He was REALLY BAD. But we played RPD. With bad spawns. All gens but 1 (so 6) were close together. And you guessed it - killer had eruption and call of brine. No matter how bad killer, he WILL eventually get you. He will eventually get rid and eat all the pallets. And no you just can't do the gens in the meantime because killers convinced all the devs that maps are way too small so getting from one gen to another now takes 5s. We were still able to do 4 gens. But hell 40 minutes game. How is this healthy?
The perk is HARD carrying some killers. Making the game MISERABLE.
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This perk got buffed the way that soloqs are more punished, while the SWFs would feel no difference. Are you nurse main?
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Doctor. And don't bother responding, I already know you are just going to make crap up to somehow make The Doctor to be greatest killer since malaria.
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Yeah not buying that. My games, win or lose, last no longer than 15 minutes.
But lets assume that what you are saying is true... You telling me 4 people can't do 8 minutes per gen... You have bigger problems than 1 perk not being total trash like every other killer perk.
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If I could get 40k for objectives category alone, I would - and I was one of the people that died sooner. Yes I can't do 5 gens in 8 minutes, because I don't bring 4 BNP's in case killer brings Eruption+CoB+map with close gens together and camp them. You can't go near gen without getting hit once, because they are so close together. And you can't really work on a gen for longer time, because eruption/CoB will reset them to 0. The only chance you get is totally outplaying the killer so that he can't even hit you (read new killer player - the game is designed so that killer should get survivor eventually) - and once this happens, then the forum is full of killer main asking to shrink the maps, make weaker loops and remove pallets.
But what will happen when the devs actually decide to go with it? Nothing - the cycle will just repeat. It will be just even less skilled killers complaining about even stronger survivors, that they are not able to lend a single hit. Because the fundamental problem is, that killers can sometimes hold the objective indefinitely (Hens made a video about that one with knight), so it's just a matter of time until killer gets his 3/4K.
Also eruption slows down the game by up to 40s for each survivor hit (so if 3 survivors are working each on his own's gen and killer hits 4th, killer will get equivalent of 120,75s game slowdown just from this perk). And YES. This DOES happen. Especially for killers that do camp their 3gens (some of them from the very start of the game - not giving any chance to break it - making perks like dejavu about as good as very time-limited 5% repair speed boost).
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I assure you I'm engaging in good faith here, but I have to ask- how is the delay from BT guaranteed? If someone's unhooked while you're on another side of the map, BT does nothing. If someone's unhooked while you're nearby but that survivor chooses to run away instead of bodyblock, BT does nothing. Heck, if BT isn't even in the match but survivors try to use their basekit Endurance to bodyblock, it's the same situation as your description up there, surely?
I also agree that Eruption has multiple "ifs" attached, but that's part of the problem. It should be more consistent than that, and, when those "ifs" line up the effect is too strong. Remember that it's effectively more than 25 seconds delay because it takes a chunk off the generator and the generator starts regressing, so after that 25 seconds has passed the survivor has to catch back up to where they were again.
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
It is not guaranteed. It is all but guaranteed. This because killers telegraph their strikes. It takes quite a long while from the click to start the hit. It doesn't take much practice to get it down pat. And if you are acting in good faith why are you bringing up situations where DH doesn't apply. I don't bring up situations where Eruption doesn't apply.
"Heck, if BT isn't in the match" I have never seen that. And I mean that in the literal sense. Every single match, no exceptions, I play multiple survivors bring it.
But you seem to forget that unlike with Dead Hard where there is only one killer to deal with and as such wastes 2.7 seconds every single time it occurs, Eruption doesn't disable the entire survivor team. In the vast majority of cases if it hits then it'll hit one survivor, not the other 3 that will still be doing whatever it is that they are doing. If you are exceedingly lucky as a killer it'll hit 2 survivors but that also means that the other half of the team is still out there doing their thing, buying you as the killer a little bit of time. Personally, I have only had it happen once, and granted: a fond memory it is, where my Eruption hit 2 survivors. 3 simply doesn't occur.
Now I get what you are saying concerning consistency but this is a risk/reward situation where the risk of having those if's gives a good strong effect when it does hit. So I remain of the opinion that it is balanced. Big risk of being a dud with a mere 10% regression, big reward in the few cases where it does hit.
I didn't say 5 gens in 8 minutes. I said 1 gen in 8 minutes. You said the match lasted 40 minutes. 40 minutes divided by 5 generators equals 8 minutes per generator. That is one hell of a lot of time.
First of all, you shouldn't be 3-manning a generator ever but secondly, that simply doesn't happen. I invite all killers on this forum that have ever used Eruption to list the number of games they have played with it and list the number of times Eruption hit 3 survivors. Because you'll be seeing a lot of 0 times happened ever. Like I said earlier, I had one single occurance where it hit 2 and I have been using Eruption forever.
In the last paragraph you make several mistakes. Besides the fact that hitting 3 survivors is straight up fantasy and the fact that the disable lasts 25 seconds, not 40, that doesn't mean you get a cumulative gameslow down, the slow down is still only 25 seconds and frankly not even that as then you simply do something else like getting yourself in position to rescue the hooked survivor, find a different gen to work on, etc. By the time you are done repossitioning the disable effect will be over. You are exaggerating the effects of Eruption in the extreme. You make it sound like all you can do is stand next to the gen. This is a bad idea in and of itself because if the explosion hits, the killer will see you are there and if you are still around then the killer will be on you. Now I understand how that game lasted 40 minutes if that is how you played. This is just bad gameplay on your behalf and has nothing to do with Eruption.
Also, complaining about 3-gens is about as useful as complain about shack loop. Yes, it is strong but not unbeatable. You'll have to find a way to make it work. Don't blame the killer for doing his job. I don't blame survivors for making use of loops despite of how annoying, and frankly lame, it is.
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You seem like you're mixing up Dead Hard and Borrowed Time a few times in this post, so I'm genuinely not too sure if I can follow what you're trying to say, sorry. I think you're talking about Dead Hard with the telegraphed hits thing, but before you said it was Borrowed Time that provided near guaranteed value because people bodyblocking with it caused every hook to require three hits?
I'm definitely assuming some wires got crossed here, so clearing that up would be useful-- forget about Dead Hard entirely for a second, what makes Borrowed Time overpowered? That should make it a little simpler.
Regarding your last point- it's kind of relevant that it's not just a good strong effect, it's an overtuned effect that brings far more slowdown than any other comparable perk. Additionally, the risk/reward is completely outside of your control- and the control of solo queue players who end up facing it. That's kind of a problem, players shouldn't have their perks nearly nullified by the whims of whether their opponents happened to queue up with friends or be hit way harder just because they happened not to queue up with friends.
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As for 8mins - I understood it. I meant doing 5 gens for 8 mins each which is of course those 40 minutes.
From my experience you are just plain wrong. 3man eruption happens to 3gen campers (the people that will decide to camp their 3gen from the moment game spawns them) literally every other game. If you play normally, this does not happen that often (or it might even be rare), because you will not even kick all 3 gens as going for it will require you to actually patrol gens even when you see survivors nearby (and yet some killers do exactly this - they don't chase. They just kick gens and that's it).
Also I wasn't talking about 3manning single gen. I was talking about doing 2 or 3 gens out of last 3 (it does not even need to be last 3, but it needs to be all 3 of the 3gen) - but if all of them are kicked, then hitting all 3 other survivors with it is not that difficult - especially with efficient survivors that will hop on gen immediately when killer is not within 5m of a gen (to actually try to break it).
About slowdown - it is potentially 40,25s exactly per hit survivor. 25s of incapacitated (and no you can't do anything - not even heal - but move on a map and go for unhook - which means fully wasted time for 2/3 survivors and partially wasted for that 3rd as he comes way too soon) + 9s instant regression (10% from 90s gen) + 6,25s normal regression when you can't stop it after explosion, because you are in fact incapacitated. So once again your 25s are WAY OFF. Also when you are incapacitated you might as well stand next to gen. Because what is the alternative when you are trying to break 3gen? Running around headless? Going 3 people for single rescue? Heal-but-oh-you-can't? Tell me what should I do in fact that's not actually doing the same as standing next to gen?
And about 3gen not being unbeatable:
Also Hens wasn't trying to win. If he wanted to, he had whole hour to do so. He deliberately let them pick-up and heal and so on just to hold the game hostage...
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None of the above is about Borrowed Time.
Ok, imagine a scenario where one survivor is hooked and another is going in for rescue. You as the killer arrive there while the unhook happens. Nothing too wild to imagine, I assume. Chase starts with the unhook survivor body blocking for the unhooking survivor. Stand (essentially) still for 2.7 seconds while the unhook survivor sprints past the unhooking survivor. You catch up after about 30 seconds later (thats how long that takes from a 2.7 second delay) when you are essentially in the exact same state of progress. All for free, wasting 45 to 55 seconds of time for free.
Even in just a straight line with nowhere to vault or obstruct or anything like that, that 2.7 seconds means a survivor will have covered 10.8m from just that single swing bouncing. Killers run 10 to 15 percent faster than survivors. So 0.4 or 0.6m/s. That means that to get back into striking range takes 27 seconds and even if the killer runs at 0.6m/s faster then that is still 18 seconds that it takes to get back into striking range.
Now when you catch back up after that time, then now the other survivor is behind because the first one will have sprinted past due to the sprint survivors get when struck. Borrowed Time affects both of them and since it lasts for 40 seconds the Endurance effect is still active so the other survivor gets a free hit too.
All that from Borrowed Time. And you don't even have to do anything for it, it's all automatic, zero skill involved. Granted, it's only once a match but it is only once a match per survivor. That means that, as killer, you'll still have to deal with this nonsense up to 4x per match. Then at that point they still have their Dead Hards, Sprint Bursts, etc etc etc.
This single perk just automatically forces you to go look for the other survivors. That is not playing a game and making decisions. That is a flat out: this is your only option. But it is something you as killer are only informed of once you have actually swung, chased down and then swung again. If you then decide to go looking for the others, which also takes significant amounts of time especially on large maps, then you are also wasting time as theres plenty of places they could be. Time you, as killer, don't have. You want to talk delays. Let's discuss this first then because the above does not take enviromental factors into account like getting pallets flung at your face, vaulting, losing sight, getting fire crackers/flashbanged/flashlighted and all the rest.
Especially in combination they are just flat out broken and waste far too much time, especially with the current gen rushing meta. The above doesn't even take the killer's acceleration and the survivor's speed burst from getting hit into account.
"it's an overtuned effect that brings far more slowdown than any other comparable perk." Are you saying that every perk needs to be on the pethatic level that the average killer perk is at?
"That's kind of a problem, players shouldn't have their perks nearly nullified by the whims of whether their opponents happened to queue up with friends or be hit way harder just because they happened not to queue up with friends." No idea what you are on about here, Eruption doesn't do anything based on SWF or not.
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So? What is your point?
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The eruption rework could be very simple.
1) Remove the ability for survivors to do other actions when the trapped generator explodes.
2) Change the effect so that the generator cannot be interrupted from the regression state for 45 seconds.
3) Anyone actively repairing a generator when the trap is set of has a -15% generator repair modifier during the next 45 seconds.
4) Increase cooldown of Eruption to 45 seconds.
5) Now we have a perk that prevents you from working on the generator you want to work on that affects SWF and solo players equally.
This would encourage survivors to heal instead of rushing generators which would put the game in a healthier place.
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Generally agreed. With the exception, that 45s is way too long for stall given 3gen scenario. Again - hitting 3 gens close together does not take that long. And having 3/4 of fully stacked no way out for like 15s time investment (that gets refunded by CoB and other regression perks) just creates same scenario why people currently hate eruption. Also 30+s of free chase time after every down for a single perk is not very cool. But say the eruption got 30s cd and it going on cd after every kick - it would mean that there would be some reasonable time that 1 or 2 gens are still not blocked...
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Making you lose the ability to do anything for ~20 seconds is a strong deterrent. That needs to have a fair replacement.
Unless we change killer regression to be 1:1 base then 30 seconds of generator regression is nothing. I would say 60 seconds is too long and 30 seconds is too short.
-"45s is way too long for stall given 3gen scenario"
Survivors leaving a three gen is the equivalent of the killer hooking one person three times. It's a mistake you must avoid.
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A few things jumped out at me here- first, BT doesn't affect both survivors, it only affects the survivor that got unhooked. Second, your scenario assumes that you're right there when the unhook happens, which isn't the case all the time. Third... I really don't see how BT is the problem here when everything you're describing works using just the basekit Endurance survivors get anyway?
But, to the bodyblocking point, it's not quite as damaging as you're making out. Bodyblocking like that is safe for survivors to do in fewer scenarios than they think; multiple times I've been able to just smack the unhooked survivor and then down them again a few seconds later, which even if it takes the time you laid out, is far more damaging to the team than that hook being given to the unhooker or being denied entirely by actually using BT to run away and get to safety. Again, though, I need to stress- what makes BT the problem when survivors get its effects for free? People don't bodyblock every game and it doesn't automatically win the match for them when they do, either don't tunnel or just target the guy bodyblocking, both work out for you most of the time.
As for your final two points; it's obviously false framing to suggest every other killer perk is pathetic. There are plenty of decent ones, the bar for good isn't Eruption. As for SWF, yes it does affect Eruption; those on comms can call out when they're about to go down and deny the Incapacitated with reasonable consistency. Against SWF, Eruption is dramatically less useful, making it effectively a solo queue crusher- something that really isn't good design, let alone necessary.
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again. Killers can camp 3gen from the start of the game (leaving 4 gens for free repair) and some do exactly that AND win the games this way. There's no mistake on survivor side for this design problem. There's no way to combat it except predicting it and taking some perks/items exactly for this scenario (BNP, potential energy, proof, etc)
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"The only overpowered Perk". Dude this perk is a joke. If the killer dont get a down AND u sit at your gen, this thing does 10% Regression, thats it.
You should know when a gen was kicked and so to be a little bit careful. If u want an OP-Perk: DEADHARD!!!
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I mean, if the killer doesn't get a down, this perk does nothing, clearly that doesn't matter all that much.
Getting a down isn't that hard, and if someone is sitting at the gen when that down happens, it brings a lot of slowdown to the table. I really think you're underestimating Eruption if you think it's a joke, seriously.
As for Dead Hard, bit of a false equivalence, and one perk being OP (supposedly) wouldn't mean another perk can't also be OP.
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-"As for Dead Hard, bit of a false equivalence, and one perk being OP (supposedly) wouldn't mean another perk can't also be OP."
Not to mention the justification of one broken perk does not make up for the angst caused by the other. Anyone remember 2016 NOED? It was literally the "payback" mechanic that made the game fair. You had your fun before the generators got powered but then playtime was over with never ending NOED and 9% movement speed.
You can't change your perks to play this way mid game. They also nerfed a number of maps to make the 3 gen strat less viable. Sometimes no generator spawns at hangman on DD Saloon. RPD can only have 1 generator in the main room (this was terrible nerf to the map).
There are a number of maps where you can't 3 gen unless the survivors are very bad at the game.
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exactly. Survivor can't change build to combat it. Killer can come fully prepared and survivors will probably only try in vain to break it. It's usually stalemate or survivors slowly dying.
Also I have NEVER seen no gen on hangman's. And I play the map a lot. This means the chance must be less then 1%.
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It can't be 1% as I played that game back to back recently and neither version had it. Sometimes you can only get a 3 gen on DD but most of the time you have a 4 gen on the "3 gen side".
If there are 4 gens on that side the map is ok because you can basically ignore the building.
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Ah. I misunderstood you. What I meant is there is always *a generator* at gallows - not necessarily 3gen (but that one is pretty common).
Sure enough, sometimes you have a bit different 3gen like 1 at watertower, 1 at road near water tower and 1 at crossroad. Or 1 of those not being there but building next to shack (away from main) has one or the gen is below it (so less visibility, but same distance) or building at crossroads (same thing). So 5-6 gen spawn points outside of standard 3gen. And also at the other side of road you can get 3 gens (one directly at the road, 1 on a building or just below it and one at next loop). Those are standard 3gens - all of which within about 20m of each other. I have hardly ever seen spawn where no 3gen happens on this map (but technically it's possible and headonfield has higher "chance" to spawn it - even if it's not as bad)
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-"there is always *a generator* at gallows"
This is not correct.
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I would prefer old Pop goes the Weasel. But unfortunately there is no single perk doing what Pop did in the past.
I know Incapacitated is an annoying Status-Effect. You cant do anything besides unhooking people. Its fine that you get some kind of "Dead Mans" on you, but you should at least be able to do something else than sitting on the gen. Opening Chests, cleansing totems etc. Not being able to do anything but running is stupid.
Also, with the new HUD-Icon, you will now see if someone is in a chase when injured or not. This will help to be a little bit more careful if u sit on a generator which had sparks on it before u touch it.
But, as I said, Old Pop was way healthier for the whole game. If I would be a dev, I would increase Pop AT LEAST to 25% of the current progress (not total), even 30% would be fine. You get rewarded when u was able to sucessful hook a survivor AND you have a reason to not camp.
Edit: I do not care what happens to Eruption if something happens to Eruption, because I dont like Mass-Gen-Kicking at all, its boring. I dont run this perk anyway. I would love to see Opression gets a fairer cooldown, this perk would be cool for me, really cool, but 80sec is just soo much, its unreal. If I use Gen-Perks, its the boring Deadlock or Corrupt, Regression is Pain Resonance or Jolt (so I dont have to kick xD).
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I have yet to see a single spawn of map without one. For me it would be so shocking as main not spawning one
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I think I've seen an empty gallows one time, so it's incredibly rare.
And even that game, the gen was in shack instead. So it was still a possible 3 gen, but much easier to pressure on low ground in the common looping spot.
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