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Hook Sabotage
I could be going out on a limb here.
But was wondering if anyone agrees. Hook Sabotage is not entirely but for the most part useless. It's not the idea itself but I think it falls in its self reset and timing.
A defaulted 30 second refresh is to short, by the time you've taken a hook down and got hit by the killer you're most likely running from the hook or by the time they catch you the hook has reset. Therefore I think a 45 sec/1 min reset is better
Or even better....To be more specific, something like this, players with tool box or hook Sabotage perk can take a maximum of 2/3 hooks down per game but once they're down they have to be reset by the killer, however the killer can reset them even whilst holding a survivor but it takes 2/3 seconds to set it up again.
I'll chuck this up on dbd suggestions and feedback forum if you guys agree!
Comments
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Buffing sabotage is dangerous because a team that actually plays around it is obnoxious as hell
It's fine as is, imo.
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Sabo plays are supposed to be extremely hard to pull off. Really a successful sabo should only cause a carried surv to struggle out so the hook shouldn't stay sabo'd for too long.
For a killer having a surv struggle out is a huge loss. And as mentioned above most teams that regularly pull off sabo plays are remarkably awful to play against.
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Idk I've sab hooks and the killer just drops the guy and waits for it to come back... Not much of an advantage since we have two people of gens and how risky it is to pull off.. I agree with op don't bother with sab
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A single sabo isn't doing much, and quite frankly is usually useless unless they are coordinating going down in near dead zones for hooks. However, if you get a full on team effort with talented survivors (with at least one always on gens) it can be a nightmare to deal with. But yeah, if you are soloQ and just saboing the closest hook, you are likely doing more harm than good as that time would have been better spent making gen progress.
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It definitely can but its a 2 prong operation, getting the sabo is the first step but when the killer drops I see so many times where the person just lies there next to hook recovering instead of crawling away. If you have half your wiggle bar filled and crawl away from the hook even like 10-12 meters before recovering often they can't get you back to the hook.
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Still buys time and gains them wiggle progress. Like I said it's extremely hard to pull off a sabo play and it should be. Idk if you play killer but losing a hook because of sabo plays is the most insanely annoying thing. Especially if it results in a struggle out
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Sabo has to be weak, because Hooking is such a base game mechanic. (Wish this would go for both sides tho, looking at you, Eruption...)
But it should never be oppressive that Hooks can be sabotaged. This is why they made it more accessible a few years ago (before it took longer and progress did not regress, so you were able to 99-sabo a Hook and break it instantly, which was also hard to pull off, but ineffective as well), but it stayed weak. You just dont want a game where the Survivors can make it that the Killer just cannot hook people.
So yeah, while weak, I think sabo is in a good spot currently.
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Sabo play being stronger leads to situations where Killers can't hook anyone, ever. Take a look at when they buffed Boil Over and what it did on pre-rework RPD, or full sabo teams and hook offerings on Eyrie.
It can't be buffed, because you get a game situation where one side can't win properly (no matter what they do) and the only option is a 4-man slug (which can take even longer when people start mucking around with exponential and unbreakable and even no mither).
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I wouldn't mind the hook down times being a bit longer, but as others have said sabo is hard to pull off, but when you do it is a huge reward. Not only did the killer waste time going to the hook, but now they are back into the chase again.
Like many things with DbD, it comes down to soloQ vs SWF. It's hard as a SWF, but doable, while it generally requires just the right circumstances with a soloQ to pull off.
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Not trying to be an ######### but when I'm slugged everyone says welp should have brought unbreakable. Why should I feel bad for killers and not just say welp should have brought iron grasp
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I play sabo a lot (being only one in a team to do that 99% of time). It's fun for me. Some maps are broken against it (looking at you dead dawg saloon) and every successful sabo on that map means HUGE screw up on killer's side. There are maps that are much better for it (like midwitch), but it still takes a lot of skill and risk taking which is fine.
I said so many times on this forum and I do think that sabo should be slightly buffed. But not the way you proposed.
The most frustrating thing is when killer picks someone from under the hook (being so close he does not see aura so he does not notice - happens e.g. when the hook is just on the other side of a wall), goes for one of the adjacent hooks which I do successfully sabo, I do take a hit to even prolong the wiggle and the killer is still able to hook on yet another one (yes - some hook spawns are this bad. This one is a rule on dead dawg instead of exception).
The second buff I would actually love to see is a fix to perk saboteur - in description it says it takes 2.5s to successfully sabotage a hook. This is a lie. It takes exactly 3s. I have it measured (with video evidence counting each frame if you need to see it). The difference is very important in case of forced hook trade (killer is carrying someone dead hook). In case sabotage would take 2.5s or even 2.7s, you would be able to take a hit and then fully sabotage hook to effectively almost guarantee wiggling free of dead teammate. As it stands, you will never finish your sabotage after the hit (provided killer is not stupid/distracted).
No other buff is needed. And "rescued" survivor not going away from the hook is a mistake on that survivor's side. There's no reason to buff length of hook sabotage (because it would open a time window to pre-sabotage all the nearby hooks around chased survivor making it unfair for killer).
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Because iron grasp can't actually counter sabo play half the time; if the hooks get too spread out it's impossible. When it's buffed, it literally doesn't matter; you don't get enough distance to reach hooks in the time available. You can get something like an entire fifth of the map with a single hook, everyone will go down in one corner, and that one hook gets sabotaged. Carrying someone literally halfway across the map, with obstacles, just isn't doable.
And it would need to be agi+iron grasp to even have a chance. Iron Grasp on its own adds 7m before wiggling out, but that's nothing with dedicated builds; weirdly enough, most maps don't let you walk in a straight line across them and the difference between 59 and 66m isn't enough to help.
Then put that into context: if a Killer wants to have a chance against a dedicated sabo team that they don't know is coming, they should use half their perks when those are otherwise only useful for carting someone off to the basement. Unbreakable can at least have value when someone's not going to slug to death.
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The second buff I would actually love to see is a fix to perk saboteur - in description it says it takes 2.5s to successfully sabotage a hook. This is a lie. It takes exactly 3s. I have it measured (with video evidence counting each frame if you need to see it). The difference is very important in case of forced hook trade (killer is carrying someone dead hook). In case sabotage would take 2.5s or even 2.7s, you would be able to take a hit and then fully sabotage hook to effectively almost guarantee wiggling free of dead teammate. As it stands, you will never finish your sabotage after the hit (provided killer is not stupid/distracted).
Tbh, it's kind of ridiculous that a healthy teammate can guarantee a free down by sabotaging the hook in the Killer's face when they're already using a toolbox for it. Making it too easy and effective would be, again, a horrible idea for everyone. It's just asking for slugging, because that's the only counter.
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Really? I've just been unlucky then I've seen iron grasp and that trapper perk take people basement from across the map haha
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No he can't GUARANTEE it. You need to be in good position for it. You need killer to choose your hook (which in non-corner case means picking your hook when he has anything between 3-7 hooks to choose from) - which means you must be sneaky (so that killer will not know to not go there) AND lucky (so he picks your hook), alternatively if you pair it with breakout - you still need to be even closer then people that come for flashlight save. And this all means exactly nothing if killer brings any one of iron grasp or agitation or mad grit or starstruck (and also infectious makes it much harder) - and if he brings combo, then you can forget about any sabo play.
The point is - even in this case it's far from free and in best case scenario for survivor you are able to trade (like sure, best best scenario is when you have much more time and are able to sabo it before killer can hit you once, but that opens possibility that killer will still be able to bring that survivor to different hook once he sees you start to sabo - like see my 1st paragraph)
Now compare all this "free" shenanigans compared to just regular flashlight save. Can you see the difference? Can you see how much flash save is easier in comparison?
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Yeah, agitation makes you go faster too (faster than Survivors). Agi is the trapper perk you're thinking of; paired with Iron Grasp you can lug someone for nearly 18s at just over 4m (78m total); baseline it's 58.8m. You get roughly another 1/3 distance with IG+Agitation, but with IG alone it's only another 7m. Agitation on its own is better for distance--about 69m--but slightly worse at body blocking.
Most of the successful sabos I've seen aren't Survivors anticipating which hook it's going to be (except for full squads), it's people doing said sabo only as the Killer's nearly at the hook. By making the sabotage speed faster than the time to recover from a successful hit, it gets waaaaay easier to pull that off. Don't need a toolkit, can bring any other item you like, etc.
And that, in fact, is definitely easier than a flashlight save that requires a lot more co-operation from the Killer to execute. And that everyone misses half the time anyway.
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And was it this bad before patch 6.1? Because as I recall nobody used sabotages back then (but rare sabo squads), because it made very little sense in usual game. We already saw how 3s vs 3s looks like and it wasn't bad for killers. Also taking toolbox (with double speed addons and DH) is still better option for this play, because you do have enough time to actually DH after sabo to almost guarantee escape after sabotage (as opposed to saboteur fixing it's duration to be indeed 2.5s or as is written in description - even 2.7s would be fine).
And one last note - it's still 1 perk that would allow you TRADE when played right. It's not like killer will get nothing for it. At best case (and even if killer decides for wrong hook and does not notice that survivor) you as a sabotaging survivor get downed AND hooked for your trouble. Basically this would be one of a very few defenses against tunneling killer (and still it's usually very easy to catch wiggled off survivor anyway - all you need to do is let him wiggle anywhere not within 5m of a window or pallet) - because stun after wiggle is about as long as current DS - so a lot of time such a save prolongs the chase for 5s (making it net benefit for killer as 2 hooks for a price of 1)
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