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Dead hard should be looked at properly once and for all
like the title say since the rework can be considered a BUFF overall speaking (it can be considered nerfed only when aganist killers that inflict deep wounds like deathslinger and legion)
the reason is quite simple: if in the hands of good survivor old dead hard would help you to reach a pallet or a window in time, extending the chase even further, this perk not only will avoid a potential loss of pallets, but it will also gave a speed boost for the survivor, making him able to even change loops (so punish you even more than the old version), making your efforts to zone someone in area that has few defenses useless.
i found it funny seeing all those complains/threads about eruption when a perk with a similar effect exist (both are extremely annyoing to face, not to mention the time that i'll loose due to those perks)
Comments
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Yeah, saying that the DH change was actually a buff is pretty hysterical.
It was a nerf. Calling it anything else is disingenuous. Whether or not it needs further adjustment is up for debate, personally, I don't think so. That's why it's a debate though.
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The only lose lose situation with dead hard is when used at a pallet. If used at a window I have no problem waiting.
At a pallet you just can't do nothing about it and you will eat the pallet most of the times.
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Playing Killer I still see Dead Hard constantly so it's pretty clear the nerf it got wasn't enough considering it's still almost universally used by most survivors.
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Being able to take a hit, even though most can't time it right, is still just useful, especially compared to options with other exhaustion perks.
Sprint burst does it better though as you can literally just outrun the hit, no one uses it effectively though.
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I'd argue it was more of a lateral move. It's potentially stronger in some cases and weaker in others. The main difference is it's no longer obnoxious.
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No, it's still obnoxious.
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As it's a matter of opinion I can't tell you it isn't. I will say DH was a problem. In it's current state I feel DH isn't a problem anymore. It's still strong but has counterplay.
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DH and Eruption are the two perks right now that have such a strong meta, that they singlehandedly decide how games are played and they have the greater game in their stranglehold. DH did so for quite some time now and after some grace period right after 6.1 were killers could just be killers and swing when they cornered a survivor or caught them in the open we are basically back to were we startrd. Now, with a lot of survivor adapting and learned how to use the new DH, it's once again necessary that you have to second guess every single swing until you know that a survivor is running something else or are in the deep wound state.
It's true that the new DH is much fairer then the old one and that you can now effectively bait it out most of the time, but it's still wasting time every single chase and it feels just obnoxious to be forced to do so. And there are still lots of lose/lose situations for the killer, that just feel awful. By now I can predict pretty well when a survivor will DH in front of a palette, but the window to hit them afterwards is soooo fricking small that it's actually more to your detriment to try to go for it then to just eating the DH and applying mending. FR, I have pulled this off successfully a scant 3 times by now, but have many times predicted the DH correctly and still gotten hit by the palette ... this time without deep wounding the survivor and them just using a palette. This is really awful and quite comparable to the way survivors feel about the uncounterable status of an Eruption primed gen. Do they waste time off that gen and be waiting for a down that might never come or stay at the gen and risk looking at it for 25s? Fun for everyone.
I have a few ideas of how to nerf DH even further, without it being too strong. For one, we could not make it an exhaustion perk, but give it tokens. DH could have a much more generous activation period of 1s or even 1.5s, but once used up its token is gone, a bit like Unbreakable. It gives you this one or two strong plays per game, but you have to make them count and can't use it in every chase or to greed EVERY. SINGLE. WEAK. PALETTE. TO. ITS. ABSOLUTE. MAX. .... sorry, I needed to get that "skill issue of mine" out of the system. I would argue for two tokens, one would be too weak, 3 still oppressive enough that you could use it very much like now. 2 seems to be the sweet spot.
Heck, I would even be fine with a token-based DH to stack with SB or Lithe, if I knew that it was gone afterwards and can't hurt me further.
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And I still see PR a lot.
Being used a lot doesn't mean it's OP. DH isn't even close to as good as it was.
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I would still argue that overall, it's a nerf. Especially considering that it now takes some skill to use effectively.
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DH is fine. It takes a lot of skill to use. The timing is extremely tight, so much so that the slightest latency will mess it up. And it can be used near pallets to force a drop but again the timing for that is so tight.
When used in any other situation it's so easy to bait out if killer is aware of it. And survs often try and force it to make the timing easier, which is a very obvious play when they run straight at killer. It's not the auto 3rd health state most complainants claim it to be. Unless someone is using a script.
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Considering the case that Survivor successfully use that perk, it's stronger than before... It's a fact
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Old ruin was modified only for that reason alone... Same pop...
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One of the biggest complaints of DH is the lose-lose situation at pallets where the Killer either swings and activates DH or wait and eat the pallet stun. This could perhaps be rectified by adding a 0.5 second delay before survivors can drop pallets if they use DH within a specified distance from an undropped pallet. That way Killers will still have to wait out the DH, but have a small time window to down survivors at pallet chokepoints after DH is used.
Survivors would also have to decide if they should drop the pallet first or use DH and hope the Killer takes the bait. The idea of current DH being High Risk High Reward definitely doesnt apply at undropped pallets if Survivors still has the option to drop the pallet if they fail their DH.
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Pretty sure there were 4 other reasons that Ruin was nerfed.
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At this point, I’d genuinely rather go against the old DH. I lose so much more when I hit them, I’d rather them just E to a pallet and drop it then get all this free distance and have to waste all this time chasing them again. The uncounterable situations still very much exist, and not to mention all the annoying ass 50/50s and guessing games you have to play on when they’ll use it or if they even have it, you literally don’t have to even proc the perk to gain value, killer gets screwed over whether they respect it or not. How is any of that fair?
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Dead Hard in it's current state is both balanced, and not balanced as well.
To explain,
Dead Hard can make or break a game as survivor. If you know the Killer is swinging as soon as they enter range you can just dead Hard as soon as you think they are in swinging range, which will cause it to either miss or hit. Giving you a few seconds of value on a miss, but an insane amount of value on a hit due to the speed buff.
There are two nerds that I have heard of that wouldn't be bad for Dead Hard while keeping it's usefulness.
First would be a Dead Hard injured animation. If you have dead Hard your running animation would be different than survivors without Dead Hard.
Or another change would to make it not give you mending. I mean you basically take the hit like old dead hard but without the speed boost. Less powerful, but still useful and allows you to work around killers that cause mending.
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Even in the case that ruin has more than One reason... And pop? This was literally One of the healthiest perks in the game (encourage the killer to leave the hook and Patrol generators) and It was nerfed to the ground... My point stand since devs have touched perks that were perfectly fine Just because they were overused (hello selfcare)
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Correct.
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What is the nerf? The survivor presses DH to get on the pallet, and then he can fall in it, and now the survivor press DH in the pallet, but now he gets a sprint and runs away to Narnia? and the pursuit continues even longer than if he used the old DH? The new DH allows you to survive Bubba's chainsaw, zombie strikes, get a speed boost where everything used to fly through you, now you are happy to catch it because of the boost.
How do people not realize that survivors don't press DH to avoid attacks in an empty field, they press it in situations where you have to lunge
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And how do people not realize that DH now has a fairly sizable skill requirement now?
Is it better for highly skilled Survivors in specific scenarios? Yes. Is it worse for the vast majority of players? Yes.
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pressing e when you see a hit or on obvious m2 attacks does not require skill
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It was a rework. It's unrealistic to either call it a buff or a nerf. Old DH guaranteed safety with little mindgame. New DH guarantees safety, with a possible chase extension, without needing to use resources. In my opinion, new DH is much stronger, as someone who's played against it and played with it extensively.
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Huh, in the right hands the new dead hard is a slight buff in terms of chase potential, but overall a nerf to a majority of the player base. If not a little luck dependent in the hands of a survivor who knows how to use it. The old Dead Hard simply uncounterable ina massive amount of situations. Allowing you to get distance and free pallet drops that the killer could do nothing about.
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You still need to predict it because DBD's servers are pretty garbage.
It's pretty clear nothing I'm gonna say can convince you though.
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I disagree.
New DH is counterable, it's no longer an I-win button. You need to time it correctly otherwise it does nothing. Old DH could be used without counter to save resources by simply chaining tiles AND it killed ranged Killers.
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Dead Hard could be trash-tier and it would still be a poorly-designed perk. Even discounting the lose-lose situations it can force at pallets, it makes the Killer second-guess every swing they make, whether the Survivor has the perk or not.
Is it worth it to throw a hatchet? Will I regret it if I go for a lunge? How long do I need to stare at the Survivor's back to bait the DH? Should I swing into it when they run straight into me? How much distance will I lose this time?
I've had enough. The perk needs to go.
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"No you can't use your power which telegraphs when it's going to happen as effectively as any lunge because DH" is definitely a buff against everything that would have ignored the distance beforehand, so it did get at least one buff in the process.
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-"since the rework can be considered a BUFF overall"
Most people don't like thinking that the perf got buffed. It got weaker in that it lost the "uncounterable" nature where people used DH for distance to get to pallets/vaults. This was an extremely simple way to use the perk even if you were not amazing.
The new version of the perk wastes as much time if not more with one exception : I attack you as soon as you get off the hook and now you can't dead hard.
It was both. The old version was stronger in some ways because you could use it to create distance where none existed when you needed it most. There was nothing the killer could do if you just zipped forward 4 steps instantly.
What you're not taking into account is that there was literally no difference in chase times among high tier players before and after the DH change. It saved lots of time before the nerf and it saves lots of time after the nerf.
In BOTH instances the perk gives you a "third health state" because you avoid a hit you should have taken.
Since everyone knows DH is giving survivors a third health state : give DH a penalty to all healing actions to a survivor using it.
Nerf : Increase the heal time of all actions of any player using dead hard by 100%.
This will encourage you to play the game hurt. You will have two health states every chase but the first. It will delete the "third health state".
The broken aspect of DH has always been: you have to hit this player three times. Remove that as a likely scenario and the perk would see drastically less use. Some people would still use it and play it well. What you don't want to see is ~31% of the player base using it . And that's exactly what is happening right now.
Look at the perk rate use yourself : https://nightlight.gg/perks
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Dead Hard in its current state is literally fine. This seems like a skill issue.
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Agreed. Would it be too much to prevent interactions for 2 seconds after using dead hard?
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Yeah, not using nightlight.
It's way too inaccurate.
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I dont know if that would be enough. Right now, even if the survivor uses Dead Hard and then throws the pallet, you have a brief moment where you can actually hit him, making him even waste the pallet.
To be trully balanced on that moment, DH should be just deactivated upon reaching a pallet (and activated again when you leave it). You already have your tool for extending the chase right here, where you can play the minigame and lose or win. If you win the minigame, you extend the chase by using the pallet correctly. If the killer wins. he hits you.
Even if people dont want to admit, the "meta swap" that BHVR wanted to do with that mid chapter actually worked well for killers but didnt work for survivors. Killers were mostly Ruin + Undying. Ruin got giga nerfed and now it's never seen, and most of the time it was the best perk to combine with Undying because it was having a great effect since the game started. Now that Ruin got nerfed, Undying is not being used as much as before.
But survivors were mostly Dead Hard + Decisive Strike. DS got also greatly nerfed and now is not being seen that much, but even with the DH change, DH is still being used on 90% of survivors, sometimes even seeing 4 Dead Hards on the game.
So at the end of the day, the new killer meta can be more or less opressing than the one before with Eruption, but at least the meta changed from "passive regress" to "kick gens", and it's still a change. But survivors keep using Dead Hard on almost every game so the meta swap for them was a failure.
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Weird, every killer waits for DH and is almost imposible to use, they should remove the animation
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Pain res before 6.1 was used a lot and after it it's being used even more. DH was used a lot and after the patch it's being used much less (but still a lot). Ruin and DS were both nerfed to oblivion and are no longer being played that much. Do not cherry-pick. Take full meta on both sides
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I suppose we can agree to disagree then.-I see pain res being used much less now and DH still being used the same as before. I can argue that DH is maybe used a 5% less than before, but not more.
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Then we indeed have to agree to disagree. I play with perk saboteur. Every 3rd game I get great value from it, because people bring scourge hooks (and they work same as boons - there's just one that is being universally used by everyone every time). But to not speak only with anecdotal experience - according to nightlight (best source we have available even if it's far from perfect) it's being used in 25% of games. Before the patch it was around 15-17%. For deadhard it was around 42% before 6.1 and now it's 31%.
So sure it's still being used a lot, but a lot less then before.
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I'm serious when I say this, make basic, non lunge attacks pierce Dead Hard. The thing I hate the most of all about Dead Hard, isn't actually that it's a free counter to any lunge near an undropped pallet. That's lame, but fair enough. You're not always going to be within lunge distance near an undropped pallet.
My issue is how every single time you are going to down a survivor now, you have to wait. And if you look at high MMR, it gets ridiculous. Killers breathing down survivors neck for 5+ seconds every single time they're injured, just to wait out a Dead Hard. Sometimes you swing immediately, but hey, the survivor just used Dead Hard immediately.
This stupid waiting game is making it less fun to play killer as a whole.
Making Dead Hard only counter lunges, but NOT counter instant-swings would fix so many stupid flaws with this perk, while still letting it have its niche of preserving pallets. If you're walking directly behind an injured survivor, even if they're just 3m from a pallet, they should be dead. No more spins, no more waiting.
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I would love to see Dead Hard gettig another change not because the perk is insanely problematic but because it's being overused - again. I want to see more variety but I see like 3 dead hards every match. It's getting really boring.
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I haven't been playing for that long, but I notice a MAJOR difference with pallets and, to a lesser degree, windows. It seems like around the Knight chapter, pallets became a crapshoot. Pallets used to be way more reliable, but now I find myself getting downed when I actually got the stun in time. This happens very frequently to the point that I am not surprised many survivors are now running deadhard more consistently because it's more reliable than actually throwing the pallet. Also deadharding at the window fake, etc. Deadhard is not being used as intended anymore because the game's performance has gone down so much that it's basically a work around for that.
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it's like eruption but inverse: when you'll find people that are bad at looping, this perk will be easily counterable(not a big problem), but when you are against people that know how to run tiles this perk essentially become a 3rd health state (making games unplayable since most of the times all the survivors will bring that cursed perk into the match).
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Again the issue everyone seems to have with DH is that it becomes a third health state. Make survivors "pay" the time back so that they have to effectively complete the equivalence of two heals to be full health again.
If people were running DH so they didn't have to heal and still got two health states that would be fine. DH allowing you to have three health states is completely broken.
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Here is a perspective from someone playing both sides evenly about the Topic and especially about the eruption is like DH comparison:
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I like this idea because it brings DH in line with other exhaustion perks that have a limitation on use that's more specific than just your health state. It's like those conditions are a part of the balancing and dead hard doesn't have any, but not being used near pallets would fill that requirement.
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that guy is biased as hell tbh... saying that dead hard is less impactful than eruption is a straight up lie, especially in the case that you are aganist people that know how to loop properly (plus all 4 survivors can use that perk and it doesn't need to do certain actions to do 1st unlike eruption that require to waste time kicking generators AND downing survivors)... thinking that sprint burst is stronger than dead hard is hilarious since sprint burst will gave you only a bit of distance (useful aganist 1shot killers if you are in a exposed zone without pallets and windows), it could be annoying but the effect will end here, while dead hard is on a completely different level:
1 you'll have an extra hit (3 hits instead of 2)
2 you'll have 2 bust of speed anyway (once hitted you'll gain distance like if you were hit while healthy)
3 you can choose whenever to use it unlike the other exhaustion perks which can be activated through certain events/actions
4 you can actually use it for mindgames, gaining even more time from loops
also imo dead hard was mostly BUFFED instead of being nerfed (mind you, i'm talking regarding high mmr, where people won't go down in less than 30 seconds) because unlike the previous one that allowed to reach a pallet or a wndow, the new one will grant you both distance and another health state (in the meantime even with the possibility to avoid to waste pallets), not to mention that before the rework of certain killers and their addons, killers had actually something that caused exhaustion, countering essentially all the exhaustion perks.
Also auto dead hard script users.
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That guy plays M1 killers 50% of the time (the other 50% is soloQ survivor) - mostly wraith (but he plays all killers) and is quite famous streamer. If you call him biased, then I have bad news for you. It's you who's biased. There's 0 reason for Scott to hold bias towards one side - he would go against himself.
Guarding 3gen is not hard and having multiple kick perks with eruption makes it almost impossible to finish the game at all - being able to hold 3 gens for 20+mins in a game where seconds matter and where the game swings from survivor sided to killer sided with each passing second is just not OK. Single eruption proc can in some rare cases can slow down gen progression to up to 120,75s. That's more then say deadlock will ever give you. Also having multiple kick gen perks waters down "you have to go to gen" argument/time investment. There's a lot of killers that found out the investment is "so bad", that they are able to abandon chase and go back to gen just to kick it to reset all the progress and do that 20-30 times.
On the other hand as you said DH can make 3rd health state (but that's the best outcome - this can be mindgamed - in most situations quite easily and in one situation it still can be done but it's hard). You can even miss on purpose which will work also against cheaters - loosing measly 6m distance which is much less then from sprint/lithe/balanced/... perks.
To sum up - no. Eruption is by insanely huge degree more impactful then DH. Also Eruption has 0 useful counterplays in soloQ (especially in 3gen situations - and there are maps where 3gens are guaranteed so don't even start with "it's survivors fault" nonsense) which is something totally different to DH where there are millions of different counterplays.
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A streamer who will say to people that unbreakable and borrow time basekit are good for the game's health and that camping and tunneling are bad strategies is biased in my book... You can think whatever you want, but that's a fact: tunneling and camping are still the best strategies in the game hands down (you can argue that those tactics are extremely unfun, which I fully agree, but you can't deny their effectiveness). As for eruption it has counterplays: perks like emphaty, fogwise, aftercare, bond, etc etc will help you to know when the killer is going to down someone (plus you have eyes to see what's happening around), but those perks are ignored since they are considered weak and not meta... Anyway we are talking about the best outcome for both perks in this case: eruption if the killer successfully kick a gen and down a survivor and dead hard if a survivor timed well the button e... Solo q has more tools that they should have (perks) to avoid a 3 gen situation (and especially now that the new hud has been implemented), if this happens is only the survivor's fault, period. At high level's play applying pressure through downing survivors is much better than using gen regression perks since those perks are too much situational and they aren't granted (survivors will finish the gen before your arrival in that zone most of the times, so you'll find yourself with a regression build that you won't be able to use... While Downing people will slow them down more under all the aspects)
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