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Otzdarva: On Tunneling Being 'Worse'.
TL/DR:
- Gens can go way faster than they did pre 6.1.0, due to a lot of regression perks getting nerfed and some 'faster gen' perks being insane especially in SWFs.
- 'Nice guy' killer builds are less viable/useful, due to the nerf to BBQ, Pop etc.
- Camping is less effective as a 'hail Mary' strategy.
It's an interesting take. Not quite sure where I come down on this or if there's a solution.
Comments
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Yeah, I was expecting this video to be posted here. No surprise.
17 -
Something I think goes unmentioned: While there are base tools against tunnelling, there are fewer "layers" of protection than before. Whether it'd be DH, OtR, or BT, your only protection is Endurance. After that, you're dead. Before, there was BT, DS, and then Dead Hard to power through.
19 -
If otz said, I agree.
6 -
No, there's about the same - except now you can get baseline BT/OTR into DS into DH.
And...?
On the record, as this poster has continued to claim this throughout the thread - with the implication that there's some sort of weird conspiracy between some nebulously defined cabal of killer mains and BHVR themselves...I'm issuing a challenge for them to actually back this up.
If they do, I will update this post accordingly.
Post edited by StarLost on16 -
But it makes perfect sense that this is the case and he is absolutely right.
If before, to win I didn't need to resort to extreme tunneling because I had other means to compete, now it's not like that.
Now that a generator is done in 30 seconds or even less, I can't waste time on subtleties or "polite" builds, I have to use the hard way, erutpion,cob, pain res and tunneling from the beginning.
The problem with invoking nerfs at full blast is this, that the balance is ruined and instead of obtaining a balance, you only get increasingly marked extremes and it is the fault of a short-sighted perspective that does not see the general picture
Let's take the maps for example and the thousand godpallets, infinite or almost infinite loops, the shack which is an incredible waste of time, extremely weak killers compared to others are all neglected game elements which however have an enormous weight. Fixing these aspects could have an impact on tunneling making it less necessary but, the longer you wait to change things drastically, the more impossible it will be to fix it
14 -
Ds stun is lot shorter and not many people use it. Also killer perks support tunneling more than before so it's more viable strat than before.
7 -
DS stun is still absolutely fit for purpose. I was in the 'this perk is useless now' camp for a while, then I saw Ayrun and other tourney players using it and went 'oh, yeah, this is still bonkers powerful'.
How do killer perks support tunneling more than they did pre 6.1.0 though?
8 -
A lot of this does come down to perks because they do influence how people play in major ways. The current meta for killer is perks that all basically work the same or better when tunnelling one survivor which encourages the strategy even more
If more “Nice guy” perks were introduced or buffed (Like pop or grim embrace for example) while it would fully stop tunnelling it would definitely reduce it
2 -
The almighty god of the game has spoken.
Just follow him! 🤪
5 -
I mean he played Demo of all things, one of the worst killer in the game, so of course he lost very badly.
Demo is so weak, I really hate that killer so much, so boring, so weak. Of course even OTZ will lose with demo playing nicely
1 -
Actually current Grim Embrace is a fine design. Its just not worth atm. They should split it into 2 survs = 20sec, another 2 survs = new 30 sec.
Get rewards for playing the nice way.
4 -
90% of the killer roster is weak. Thats why this update should have been held off on until the devs did individual killer passes.
15 -
Good part: The Killer-Passes should follow next midchapter. At least I hope so.
1 -
Yeah, but think about how the match went. He didn't lose chases, the individual chases were short, didn't spend lots of time looking to work out where Survivors were, got consistent value out of the regression perk he did bring, etc.
In short, everything that would be considered good, fair play. He chose to not tunnel someone out when there was one gen left, spread the hooks out, and got 1k at the end--could possibly have been 2 if he wasn't trying for the 3k, maybe 3 if the Survivors had misplayed, but that would have been entirely due to altruism at the exit gate.
We have a problem if it's not possible to have enough pressure against a good team that this level of focus on a single player is essentially required, or running only multiple regression perks. Or we just accept tunnelling as good and desirable, because it's how you can win without relying on the other side making mistakes--i.e., we declare not tunnelling to be misplaying, and therefore we accept the winner to be the side that makes more mistakes, rather than playing nice having so much of a reliance on one side making mistakes.
17 -
My sweet summer child.
10 -
Yeah I know 🤣
6 -
If BT or OTR are active and you take a hit, then another hit and go down so you can use your DS, you’re still exhausted unless you run the killer and they slug till your exhaustion wears out. So you can’t really string BT/OTR into DS into DH without the killer basically allowing it. It’s a play that could theoretically work but because DS was weakened it doesn’t really. You don’t have enough time to get away & killers aren’t afraid of DS. FWIW, Otz doesn’t even use it in his own survivor games anymore.
2 -
It's the fact that base Gen regression doesn't even compare to base progression
Then add in Gen perks... there's more Killer then Survivor
The highest regression rate is 400% (which is the same as base progression) which is 2 perks combined (Call Of Brine and Overcharge) and it only lasts for 30 seconds
The highest 22.5% (Pop and base)
Corrupt blocks the 3 farthest Gen (from the Killer's spawn) for 120 seconds and Deadlock blocks the Gen with the most progression for 30 seconds
Prove Thyself removes 15% of Gen slowdown when multiple Survivors are on the Gen
Toolboxes save about 20 or so seconds
BNP's auto complete 25% of a Gen in about 5 seconds give or take
3 -
TL;DR: Killers got everything they asked for and are failing to realise that none of it was what they wanted.
14 -
He's not wrong though. Playing nice gets you nowhere. Especially now that there is such a huge inflation of items and addons you get power creeped and stomped, if you don't bring something strong enough to compete. I'm talking from experience as someone, who actively dislikes bringing slowdown perks. You play nice and you get stomped because there is no way to keep up with 4 survivors at once, when you can't down them quickly.
The game goes by incredibly fast because you simply cannot play efficient enough to stop survivors with so many tools without tunneling. You go on a 45 second chase in the early game, which mind you is not even that long for some of the weaker killers, and without Corrupt Intervention you realistically lose 2 gens before you can even hook the guy. I've had so many matches where I thought: "Wow, my chases are so fast, this will not be that hard." Right before losing 3 gens in a matter of seconds and finding myself in end game after a mere 4 minutes. Add in the fact that some maps are ridiculously unbalanced with even a literal infinite on Garden of Joy and you see why so many killers rely on their strongest perks, 3 gen strats and tunneling.
A while back we used to argue that you don't see 3-4 strong items every game but now this has become a reality. It's not 1 or 2 toolboxes or medkits. It's 4 in total. Typically green with strong addons stacked on top of them. I can't blame anyone for using this stuff, though. After all you get bombarded with these things in nearly every bloodweb. It just shows how massive the influence of efficiency in this game is on both sides. Tunneling is the efficient play for the killer. It's not nice. It's not fun. But it's efficient.
7 -
erm i am sorry if i seem very wrong but i dont think many killers wanted the "nice guy perks" to be nerfed? or if they did not to this point where they have to not care about the survivors fun at all?
16 -
OTz in all honesty is trying his best to bring to light the reason why killers have to be more savage and tunnel. a lot of matches ive been in where the killer spread out the hooks gave them no kills, and right now kills are the "Condition" for Merciless Killer, honestly the double pip should have stayed the req
4 -
Killers wanted camping and tunnelling protected above all else, so that's where we're at.
13 -
define what you mean by that? because i knew a few killers who say its a viable strat but hate it?
8 -
Where's the exhaustion coming from exactly?
1 -
isnt the only Exhasustion perk in the combo Dead Hard? so it is perfectly viable to string those together?
3 -
Exactly, that's why I was confused by their point. It's perfectly possible (if not extremely viable) to string all those perks together as Exhaustion goes away on hook and Deep wound goes away on down.
2 -
you’re right, that was my mistake. Thank you for correcting me.
4 -
I've been playing for 2 years and people have been complaining about tunnelling that entire time. It's nothing new. IMO I see it less frequently now than I did back then, which could be an MMR thing. Regardless, it's a part of the game and it's not going away, no matter how much they tweak perks or powers. Blaming it on the 6.1.0 update doesn't make sense to me when, as I said, it's been an ongoing thing since I started playing. They can nerf gen speeds, they can boost nice guy perks, and players will still tunnel. And people will still say 'it's a smart, legitimate strategy'
5 -
That is not what killers wanted whatsoever. That’s strawmanning. What killers wanted was map reworks and weaker killers to be buffed.
19 -
We didn’t need gens to be longer, we needed maps reworked. Map design is the core issue of why gens go too fast as most killers are unable to pressure maps properly because of the map size and design. The extra gen time didn’t actually do much when it was more than compensated by the nerfs to the previous slow down perks and addition of extra gen speed perks.
7 -
No, every time anyone wanted to address tunnelling or camping, the thread got snowed in with 'valid tactics' and 'can't win without it' comments. Killers asked for tunnelling and camping to be protected.
12 -
ah, i think i am going to step out of this debate you two are about to have because i already see it never ending
7 -
Valid tactics and necessary because of poor balance. That is “not” saying they “want” those things, that is saying it’s necessary. Those are two very different things. Killers don’t “want” those things, it was them saying it’s required until we get changes to make it not required.
13 -
Tunneling is valid and the game being an asym elimination game means that tunneling will always exist. The problem with a lot of "nerf tunneling/camping" topics are that they want to make it impossible for the killer to tunnel or camp while giving nothing in return which just makes the game worse for killers.
If you truly want tunneling to be seen less, you need to make the reward for spreading hooks better than removing a survivor from the game early. Right now there's no reason to have every survivor on death hook as with the same number of hooks you can have two survivors dead which is a far better position.
13 -
But see Tunneling works for both sides....
Survivors Tunnel Gens
Killers Tunnel Survivors
Plus Survivors are on Gens other then Healing or saving
6 -
The killer is just trying to win the game. If you dislike the killer tunneling, then maybe give an alternative strategy for the killer to win? Maybe slugging? I don't know.
5 -
Oh, I'm aware. It's just that the common (incorrect) consensus is that DS sucks and shouldn't be used anymore.
1 -
honestly that probably somes up most killer take on it, its a necessary evil that neither side truely wants(except trolls)
6 -
This exactly. Well said.
5 -
Tunneling is part of the game, I dont see why It would be 'fixed'
3 -
Is that true for Otz? Maybe.
Is it true for the rest of the playerbase? Eh.
Kill Rates are way up since 6.1.0. The game is much easier for Killer in the average skill level.
Otz is getting it confused. Killers don't NEED to camp or tunnel. It's just that 6.1.0 made it easier and more rewarding to do so, most players will always take the easiest path to victory.
16 -
If you're below the MMR softcap without tunneling or camping (Which lets be real, everyone here supporting the necessity of tunneling would be below it if they didn't, and might be below it even while tunneling) then it's absolutely not necessary. The reason why? Matchmaking is terrible.
It's wide enough that I can get anything from 12 hooks at 5 gens without tunneling or camping with chill builds to 0 hook games while playing as sweaty as possible, a single game from Otz doesn't really prove anything. Of course not tunneling will lower your kill rate compared to tunneling, the important question that wasn't answered however is "Does avoiding tunneling lower the kill rate to an unacceptable level if you're at the correct non-tunneling MMR?".
For Otz? Maybe, the guys a killer main with thousands of hours whos job it is to play this game.
For regular players? Probably not, they'd eventually start getting faced with survivors they can deal with without tunneling at which point tunneling wouldn't be necessary.
4 -
i mean.... you kind of proved the point? playing nicely as a weak killer shouldnt make it so you lose, if anything at least a draw?
5 -
It is objectively not easier to tunnel now, it’s harder, that’s just fact. Built in BT, OTR being a better DS and while weaker DS still existing and even Reassurance to top it all off. We can argue more people tunnel now than before but to say it’s easier is just false.
Unless you are playing one of the higher tier killers or the survivors are making a ton of mistakes you are required to tunnel at higher mmr against equally very good survivors.
Most matches in the game you do not need to tunnel, but against equally skilled very good and higher mmr players you do.
3 -
BT, OTR and DH get cancelled out by simply swinging as soon as they get unhooked, the speed boost is often not enough to get them to where they want to be.
Nobody runs Reassurance outside of a 4-man and DS is pretty much useless.
Compare this to pre-patch where we have old Dead Hard, slower pallet breaking speed, slower hit recovery time, bigger speed boost upon hit and 5 second DS that wasn't even disabled during the Endgame. It is 1000% easier to tunnel now for the average player.
Even if you play above the MMR soft-cap, you aren't getting "high mmr" lobbies very often but yes, when you do and people you know, actually try, you will also have to try if you want to win.
11 -
"BT, OTR and DH get cancelled out by simply swinging as soon as they get unhooked."
Many, many times they aren't able to get that hit through body blocking and if they don't it is much, much better. Are we talking complete potato survivors here or? Even average survivors can do this, doesn't even take a full team.
"Nobody runs Reassurance outside of a 4-man and DS is pretty much useless."
At higher mmr there is almost always a Reasurrance as swf of 3 or 4 mans are significantly more prevalent there and even in full solos it is quite common. You're downplaying how often this is ran by a lot.
"Compare this to pre-patch where we have old Dead Hard, slower pallet breaking speed, slower hit recovery time, bigger speed boost upon hit and 5 second DS that wasn't even disabled during the Endgame. It is 1000% easier to tunnel now for the average player."
New DH requires more skill and is worse but it is still god tier and the best survivor perk in the game. Don't act like it was gutted, you essentially still have the same perk. While yes killer got those things, you also got base kit BT into the game, a better BT perk, you still have OTR and old DS even if it's worse, and as mentioned Reassurance added in. It is 1000% not easier to tunnel, that's just false.
"Even if you play above the MMR soft-cap, you aren't getting "high mmr" lobbies very often"
If you play at very high mmr you know this is not true. If you want an example that streams very often to prove this watch Zebb89 stream and tell me how many of those lobbies look lower mmr.
"when you do and people you know, actually try, you will also have to try if you want to win."
That's a weird roundabout way of saying you agree with me.
5 -
Because it felt more rewarding to play for hooks before the meta change, even myself on nurse was mostly going for BBQ stacks during this era before trying to murder everyone. Addons were more expensive so I had to make enough BP to refund them.
Victory should feel more satisfying for killer. If the game said gg when you got a lot of hooks but no kills, instead of the entity being displeased, it would feel way better and killers would play fun / meme builds instead. Back the day it was "disgraceful defeat" for 0k. What is considered a win has to change. It's OK if both sides wins. It is a casual game after all.
It's the same for survivor also, you should get BP for struggling on phase 2, and be considered a hero for the team if your sacrifice helped the 3 other survivors escape instead of being considered a loser.
4 -
I don't think there would be a huge difference in how people play, but I do heavily agree with this sentiment.
6 -
lolol
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