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Otzdarva: On Tunneling Being 'Worse'.
Comments
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Reading through some comments here and i wonder why people are taking such extremes
I 100% agree that a death by hook 3 is lame. But earliest death at hook 9 is equally ludacris
I think by hook 5-6 it's fair to take someone out of the game
Going for the perfect 8 hooks and only then start removing survivors is just going to the other extreme
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Gen slowdown/regression/blocking perks aren't supposed to completely counter gen speeds. Net gen progress should still be positive, gens should still be being done, just slower. If killers could stack gen slowdown to completely stop survivors being able to make any progress on gens, they'd win every game.
Heck this is already a problem with the three gen build that can make a 4-man SWF unable to get any progress.
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In Otz's defense, that Demo game was doing a challenge run he currently trying to do. The challenge is a winning streak to using the same build on every killer with same the same color combo of add-ons. So in that game, that was his first game of a new attempt for the streak with a whole new build he was testing out(with each attempt he changes up the perks). So if he won that match(a 3k) he would use that same build on another killer and the same color combo of add-ons(Green and purple) on the next killer. So yeah it may not be the best build for a demo but he currently not playing the game like most of us since he is doing a challenge.
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That makes a whole lot more sense. Like the perks and add-ons are not terrible but just seemed really weird to use that kind of build where nothing really is complementing each other.
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No, they didn't say 'it's a viable way to secure kills'. They said 'it's a valid strategy', or 'it's the only way to win'. It wouldn't make sense for them to say 'it's a viable way to secure kills', because everyone that complains about these tactics -knows- they're viable strategies. That's part of why they were complaining.
And while no, they didn't say they wanted them to be the most efficient tactics available, if anyone brought up the concept of nerfing those tactics, there would be more than enough pushback, ranging from 'it's just the killer doing their job' to 'they tried a single thing 6 years ago and that didn't work so no'.
Even in this thread there's a couple of people that are stating that tunnelling and camping should not be nerfed. The result is that the game is now balanced around camping and tunnelling being in the game. Killers aren't having fun. Survivors aren't having fun. But at least camping and tunnelling are still around.
We at least agree on wanting the same end goals though.
Amen to that!
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For the...ninth time now - who exactly is 'they' and why are they representative of all killers?
I keep asking this and you keep dodging.
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I don't know who this 'they' is either. I play Killer half the time and I've posted multiple times I would like to see current DS basekit with the perk being 5 second stun on both hooks with the same deactivation conditions followed by Killers getting Ruin buffed to 200% with no hex (but deactivates on death), possibly Pop being restored to its former glory with a buffed Dying Light basekit effect for gen slowdown. That and/or chase buffs for Killers. That seems like both an incentive and disincentive to tunnel for me.
I've also argued that the MMR cap is too low to need to tunnel and camp and you can have a good win rate without it but it happens since you will lose games by not doing it. Other people have agreed with me and others have disagreed so it seems more like there's a split in opinions.
Can you qualify whom you are referring to by 'they'? If not, your arguments lose impact since they sound biased.
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You'd have to go back to figure out the exact names, but that's a pointless exercise. The point is that there were plenty of killer players standing by those standpoints, broadcasting them on the forums, and evidently they're the ones BHVR listened to.
You'll probably draw in however many are left if you make a discussion titled 'camping and tunnelling should be nerfed'.
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- 'Nice guy' killer builds are less viable/useful, due to the nerf to BBQ, Pop etc.
We can say the same for survivor perks
If you don't run the same meta perks you have no chance to escape
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It definitely is a "mmr thing" as tunneling and camping are way worse now.
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And, finally, someone said the truth ! For both killers and survivors the current meta is garbage because "or you run meta/run a specific tactic" or you have no chance to win. Problem is NOT tunneling/camping and is not DH or Adrenaline, the problem is how the game is right now because, both side ( those who play to win, not the casual players) are running the same things over and over and both side are building barricades on their own most efficent persk/tactis in order to do not lose the only thing that's working for them. Currently the only post you see are "nerf eruption, nerf dh, gen are to fast, tunneling" mean the game is suffering due a huge problem in the current gamplay and this problem is not going to be solved with "nerf" or "buff" one side or the other
BHVR should address game mechanics like map issues or add a second objective for killer/survivors and then balance both side equally around the mechanics not around soloQ, SFW or high MMR
But as long one side feel, right or wrong, to be less efficent than the other, we will see and increase of the most extreme and broken tactics and perk combination to fill that gap. I said in another post that, even the HUD change was needed and right it's no surprise the now killers feel the need to tunnel even more because they had nothing to compensate the gap.
So yeah survivors brings the most broken item and perks, killers brings the most broken tactics and perks
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NOED nerf did make tunneling worse yes. Many could play the game and have four survivor alive to the last gen and still get something but now when that perk is seen so little people tunnel instead of using the backup plan
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I think otz message in his tunnel video is that playing normally as killer is not rewarding compare to tunneling. Not that tunneling need to be removed from the game entirely. He is not saying that you need to tunnel to win, but rather tunneling is exponentially easier to win by then being good at pressuring the map and hooking the entire team. what he is trying to showcase in his demo video is that trying to arbitrary chase and hook the entire team is a recipe to lose. This is not new information. this has been a problem in the game since the start of dbd.
1 person on hook is plenty of pressure, it's just not 'win the game right then and there' levels of pressure like having 2 hooked at once is. But it also shouldn't be that overbearing. 1 person on hook is the kind of pressure where neither killer nor survivors clearly have the upper hand, and the game can still go either way. It's really healthy.
In my opinion, I think the reason why killer tunnel is because hooking is an unrewarding amount of pressure in the game. Hooking survivors has very little meaning towards killer because the killer spends a lot of time walking away from hook, looking for survivors, chasing survivors, putting them on a hook. All this time spent for the killer is time gained for survivor to do the generator objective. As strange as this may sound, you get punished as killer for every chase you take as killer. The only reward you get for hooking survivor is 1 grey hook-state bar. Killer get no rewards for individual hooking for being successful at the chase. The only time they get rewarded for hooking is when they hook to get the kill. This is the reason in my opinion why killer tunnel because tunneling is fastest proxy to winning the game. This is why I find it amusing when survivor mains go down in first chase and then RQ D/C on first down hook at the start of the match. Their 1 hook is meaningless. There is always hope for survivor to comeback. Survivors lose the ability to comeback only when they are dead. When they're dead then there is no hope to comeback.
1 person on hook is not plenty of pressure. The hook might be no pressure at all. Even two people being hooked at once is no real pressure. 2 seperate hook-states does not mean anything. Hooking quickly for killer is not rewarding. What is rewarding is hooking the correct people quickly and killing them as quickly as possible. This is what otz is refering to when he is talking about the "Mr nice guy build" and when he is talking about perks like No way out, Make your choice, Grim embrace. You know, perks incentive hooking entire team, spreading hooks. I guess you can extend this to BBQ and Pop but these two perks are as good when you tunnel as they are when you do not tunnel. If you look at his demo match holistically, what did otz do wrong to lose? What plays did survivor make that were like -oh my gosh brilliant play!- where otz deserved to lose? Just for example, The first chase he has with Mikela is wasting a pallet(getting hit and putting pallet down), hold-w on the other side of the map and then going down the shack. His 2nd chase with Meg was just as fast. Yu jin chase was the same. all his chases were relatively fast and yet it did nothing. He got 3 hooks as quickly as possible and lost 3 gens. The end conclusion of his game is 3 people escaping. Did otz play bad in the chase? No he did not play bad. Otz explained why he lost. He did not successfully tunnel. What can killer learn from this loss when playing demogorgon? The answer is nothing. you learn absolutely nothing in regards to learning to play your killer better.
The only thing otz learned by losing this game as demo is that he should Tunnel his first 3 hooks on same person instead going 3 different people. It would allow him to kill 1 person at 2 gens and perhaps 3k-4k in the match. This is what otz learned from his demo game. The end result is that perks that reward the killer for spreading hooks(e.g no way out) are pointless and the best perks are those that allow killer to tunnel more effectively and win.
This is my interpretation of otz tunnel videos.
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Cant believe this guy is literally recommending a tunneling build and he's the face of dbd. Im honestly tired sometimes. What happened to having fun for everyone
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If you want my opinion on this whole things.
Generators are only faster because Survivors feel more inclined to bring Generator-Speedup because of Generator-Slowdown. Killers feel more inclined to bring Generator-Slowdown because of the increased Generator Speeds. Killers feel more inclined to Tunnel and Camp because of the Generator Repair Speeds.
I personally think the game will be more healthy if Speedup and Slowdown were nerfed or had diminishing returns when stacking. DBD has a lot of fun perks, but both sides feel as if they cant use them because matches are either too quick or too slow without meta perks.
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That’s always been the case. The difference is that, with mmr, more matches at the upper bracket are close to high level play. At high level, the killer usually has to tunnel in order to win. The game is imbalanced and broken the higher up you go.
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I mean
They made tunnelling really easy, like I know basekit BT, OTR etc. DS still helps, a bit.
But if you know OTR isn't there (There is a VERY OBVIOUS tell if a survivor has it), why wouldn't you go after the survivor who goes down in 1 hit instead of the one who takes 2 hits and can use the first hit to prolong the chase etc
Killers aren't scared of tunnelling anymore because it's way easier to deal with the consequences you might face for attempting it. Before you had to deal with the DS 5s stun on top of stuff like old DH. DH is still good, obviously but I think old DH was just unmatched.
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I think Demo is a good killer to use for this purpose as I don't think he's particularly strong or weak, but a solidly mid-tier killer that reflects player skill pretty well.
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i was never able to get the demo, but playing against them ive had a mix of good and bad demos. the person i was replying to called em weak, and i was just saying playing nice on a "weak killer" proves that playing nice isnt exactly in the best favor of a win con
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I mean, it wasn't just killers. I think when the perk overhaul was announced, everyone went in having expectations (including me).
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I said the same thing a few months ago that Otz did, and people poked fun at me and my opinion saying "No the current meta with Eruption actually entices killers to go on chases."
But now that a big streamer said it, suddenly it's a valid observation.
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Well, if they weren't worse before they certainly will be now at any rate. As someone else pointed out, Otz is pretty much the face of this game. Regardless of what he was trying to say (he's apparently put out a tweet trying to clarify), the sentiment over the past day seems to be that he's validating tunnelling, even promoting it now (edit to add: that's not how *I* interpreted it, it's the way a number of other players seem to be interpreting it). I've been off the game for a couple weeks due to a bad ear infection, so I'm interested to see what my next several games will show at any rate. I could be wrong.
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Whataboutism.
A. The survivor meta is more varied than I think it ever has been. Killer...not so much.
B. We aren't talking about survivor builds here.
C. The issue isn't people running stuff like BK or DH. It's the HSFP 4man SWFs that can blow through 5 gens in less than 5 minutes and know where you are at all times.
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How did they make tunneling 'really easy' as opposed to before?
Tunneling is only really an issue against solos, and now you at least have baseline BT, which you can chain into multiple second chance perks.
Tunneling is weaker now, on average, than it was before 6.1.0.
The difference is that killers have fewer options now - gens move faster, Eruption is going to go bye-bye, regression got nerfed hard, Garden of Joy is an abomination.
DH had no influence on tunneling.
DS...eh. It's fine at 3 seconds. I thought that it wouldn't be, but I was actually straight wrong on this.
Huh?
I don't...think so.
- Generator-Speedup wasn't that much of an option pre 6.1.0. You had PTS, toolboxes and crap.
- Now you've got HSFP which is pretty decent solo and evil in SWFs.
- Generator slowdown was gutted in 6.1.0, with the only exceptions being Eruption, Thana, PR and PR+DMS. Thana was nerfed to complete uselessness - worse than it was before the buff. Eruption is going to be Thana'd. PR+DMS will be next, watch this space - the second Eruption goes bye-bye, the QQ train will pull into PR+DMS until that gets nerfed too.
- So now, gens are potentially faster than pre 6.1.0, and killers have weaker regression to deal with this. Now, with Eruption going - what do you expect them to do?
You'll note that @Firellius claimed this multiple times in the thread, but dodges every time someone asks him who 'killers' are. Because this is objectively not what 'killers' as a whole, wanted.
They wanted more viable choices and perks. Not less.
They wanted slower gens, not faster gens.
But, BHVR nerfed Thana, Ruin, Overcharge, PR, DMS and soon Eruption. Which means we'll soon be at a point where the killer perk meta will have less variety than it did before the meta shakeup.
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To further explain my opinion:
I think the DS and DH nerfs made tunnelling a lot easier because before DS got nerfed, if the killer wanted to tunnel somebody they had to take a big gamble; either eat a long DS stun and then have a long chase afterwards or slug them and leave them on the floor.
Now typically if you're going after someone who was just unhooked, if you hear grunts of pain then you just wait a bit and you're basically guaranteed an instant second stage, unless they have either DH and can time it well or they have DS which I will say is still a decent perk since it can allow you to keep a chase going.
But if a survivor has none of the above, they are extremely easy to get rid of if you play it right. I often find myself wishing my team would just leave me on 2nd stage for as long as possible if a Killer is hardcore trying to tunnel me out. Drag it out for as long as possible yk?
It is kind of a circular argument though, like what you said about survivors chaining multiple second chance perks is true as mentioned earlier but survivors say "well i run these perks because I get tunnelled by a killer with 4 slowdowns" and... Yeah you see the problem.
I will say that tunnelling has def increased due to the regression perks and the other as otz put it "nice-guy" perks being changed, that I don't disagree on. I just think that they also made it easier which leads to more people doing it as well.
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Of course, before you could just eat the potential DS anyway, and DH wasn't a third health state. And some people didn't have DS. Plus people not running BT for god knows what reason.
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Eh...
I think the DS and DH nerfs made tunnelling a lot easier because before DS got nerfed, if the killer wanted to tunnel somebody they had to take a big gamble; either eat a long DS stun and then have a long chase afterwards or slug them and leave them on the floor.
Not really.
DH was no more/no less an anti-tunnel tool than it's new incarnation is.
DS - 3 seconds and 5 seconds aren't that different if you use it carefully. Again, I thought this perk was butt now, but it's actually fairly decent. You just need to go down somewhere that will allow you to get to safety in 3 seconds.
Now typically if you're going after someone who was just unhooked, if you hear grunts of pain then you just wait a bit and you're basically guaranteed an instant second stage, unless they have either DH and can time it well or they have DS which I will say is sitll a decent perk since it can allow you to keep a chase going.
Watch Ayrun's solo survivor streak.
It was batty how strong OTR, DH and DS can be when you layer them.
It is kind of a circular argument though, like what you said about survivor chaining multiple second chance perks is true as mentioned earlier but survivors say "well i run these perks because I get tunnelled by a killer with 4 slowdowns" and... Yeah you see the problem.
You misunderstand me.
I wasn't complaining.
The only perk in there that I have a gripe with is DH. I'm fine with people running stacked anti-tunnel stuff.
The people who scare me are the ones who run in a 4man, send you to Gideon or GoJ with some combination of Stakeout, Fogwise, Hyperfocus, PTS, DH and COH on everyone - who'll do gens in about 4-5 minutes maximum and will always know exactly where you are at all times.
Want to know why killers generally tunnel?
They got stomped and told to uninstall by a group like this at some point, and are trying to never repeat the process.
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You could but most didn't, it was a ingrained mentality and 'fear' of decisive that led to people slugging survivors they were trying to tunnel.
As for DH, it wasn't a third health state but it had less counterplay for the majority of the roster and you can't use the new DH if you are deep wounded, so if you're hardcore trying to tunnel someone who just got unhooked you slap them and now their perk is useless.
Not really.
DH was no more/no less an anti-tunnel tool than it's new incarnation is.
DS - 3 seconds and 5 seconds aren't that different if you use it carefully. Again, I thought this perk was butt now, but it's actually fairly decent. You just need to go down somewhere that will allow you to get to safety in 3 seconds.
I'd argue old DH had more anti-tunnel potential considering it worked while deep wounded. The fact new DH is useless while deep wounded is something a lot of people forget
And yeah on paper the DS stun numbers aren't that different but people were heavily conditioned by it, again using Otz as an example he often mentions how the strongest perks condition people to change how they play even if they aren't there. (Speaking from my experience here): Killers never hesitate when picking up a survivor anymore unless they are under a pallet or know a FL survivor is close by. Those are the only time I ever see killers wait before picking up
Watch Ayrun's solo survivor streak.
It was batty how strong OTR, DH and DS can be when you layer them.
Oh I know how strong they are put together, a survivor with those 3 perks is incredibly hard to tunnel but
A survivor who isn't running that specific build can be easy pickings when it comes to tunnelling. In the same vein that killers who don't run gen perks will lose gens very quickly if that makes sense
Want to know why killers generally tunnel?
They got stomped and told to uninstall by a group like this at some point, and are trying to never repeat the process.
Tbh, that isn't why Killers tunnel. I don't think Tunnelling is a taboo, its a tactic that works and wins games
That's why I do it in my games, I know if i make the match a 3 v 1 my chances of winning increase exponentially (no pun intended)
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Really? I saw plenty of shrugging and being willing to eat the DS if it wasn't that urgent.
Yeah, you can't use DH now if BT comes into it. Not having to deal with DH is probably just one of those minor things that makes tunnelling a better strategy.
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Yeah some people didn't really care but it was def something that was ingrained in a lot of people (Hell it was ingrained in me for a while)
Plus this was also during the time where Decisive didnt deactivate if you did conspicious actions. So if you found the survivor who got unhooked again and they were on a gen, they could still have it and you'd be punished. It was horrendous.
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I could swear you can stack OTR and DH, and the endurance of OTR won't prevent DH.
I'd argue old DH had more anti-tunnel potential considering it worked while deep wounded. The fact new DH is useless while deep wounded is something a lot of people forget
I may be going nuts, but aren't the endurance effects of OTR/BT non-exclusive with DH?
Killers never hesitate when picking up a survivor anymore unless they are under a pallet or know a FL survivor is close by. Those are the only time I ever see killers wait before picking up
Not because DS is weak - trust me. It's because survivors think DS is weak, and don't really run it as much. Note - part of this is also because survivors have new perks to bring that are way scarier - Hyperfocus+Stakeout+Fogwise is just...so gross.
A survivor who isn't running that specific build can be easy pickings when it comes to tunnelling. In the same vein that killers who don't run gen perks will lose gens very quickly if that makes sense
Sure.
But they were easier pickings before.
Tbh, that isn't why Killers tunnel. I don't think Tunnelling is a taboo, its a tactic that works and wins games
That's why I do it in my games, I know if i make the match a 3 v 1 my chances of winning increase exponentially (no pun intended)
Think of it this way.
I play for BP, so I'm mostly concerned with getting my BBQ stacks and then 2 hooking. Winning is secondary.
-> BBQ nerfed.
Yeah okay, still playing a bit chill. Not going ultra sweat.
-> Get roflstomped by a HSFP squad who are insanely rude.
Nope, no more chill.
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If you are deep wounded, DH won't work. Legion, Deathslinger and (Sometimes) Knight can completely circumvent DH before the survivor even has a chance to use it
The only way you can use DH and OTR together is with a perk that heals a health state somehow. Like Renewal/Second wind or Adrenaline. Alternatively, if the killer downs you, gets DS'd then you can use your DH when you're freed because you go from the dying state to injured with no deep wound.
I was playing Knight and because a survivor got injured by Assassin, he rendered their DH completely useless and idk why I just find that so amusing.
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The endurance effects are exclusive, but as noted, anything that would remove mending somehow lets them combo.
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i like otz's videos though sometimes i disagree with him. only very rarely has he ever had some truly crap videos - and those are usually streams where the viewers are toxic and derail his points with side conversation.
i think it's important to remember how effective healing usually is. it's not even so much the generator rush issue, but more so the fact that 12 hooks and 12 health states takes a lot of time away from kicking generators. it only take 90 seconds to solo complete a generator without perks, skill checks, or items. and most of the time you spawn at the start of the match near a generator or totem. with survivors being able to see exactly how much progression each generator has and a distinct "being chased" icon it's easier to ensure that at least 3 people are working gens. and that makes it easier than ever to ensure a 210 second (3 gen@90s+2 gen @ 90s+2 gate@20s) game.
and if i have to go through endurance (dead hard+hook saves), deliverance, boon totems, medkits, flashlight saves, pallets, and mettle of man - not to mention the loops and speed boosts from injuries themselves just to get a down to even hook a player...
i'm better off making sure that player stays dead.
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The thing I found interesting about the video was saying that camping was less viable and tunneling more. If true, that's a trade I'd gladly take. When I get tunneled I at least get to play the game.
I really don't see a way that you can ever make it so a killer shouldn't tunnel (i.e. an unwise strategy decision), barring making this something other than an elimination game. Getting a survivor out will always be the most obvious strategy. Really the only reason not to as the killer is to try and make the game more fair outside top ranked MMR (which is a weird thing to ask someone to do, but that's were we are). They can make it harder (such as giving a speed boost to whichever survivor has been hooked the most), but it will always be powerful as you are taking out 1/4th of the opponent's power.
It does surprise me though that survivors on death hook don't play more cautiously, especially with the new hud. If you get hooked twice before anyone else be really cautious until you see that someone else is being chased.
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this is what happened last time that i tried to play for the memes with the trapper with padded jaws and nothing else: found a full premade with 2 bnp and 2 instaheal who deactive every trap and make my match miserable... i had again the luck of finding those brats again 1 week later and i was using leatherface... i'll let you imagine how it went (hint: it ended with 3 dc and a kill for how much fun they had)
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The first paragraph is my exact sentiment.
I do wish the 'distraction' BP/emblem points were a bit more generous, but if I'm getting tunneled - unless it's a killer that can just ignore/negate the BT effect completely (Clown, PH, Cenobite and a few others) at least I can play.
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I finally got around to watching the game. Yes, the survivors were efficient, but how are players eating these Dead Hards? I think one of them wasn't blatantly obvious. There was no reason to swing at every other DH when he did. Are players struggling that much when it comes to reading movement?
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I understand the headspace.
Either there's a lot of survivors who can hold their DH perfectly and only release it on a hit, or there's a lot of auto-DH in the wild right now.
So either I get to waste ages trying to bait it out, not knowing if they even have it or I can just swing, eat it and chase.
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I concur. It is, as far as I'm concerned, the most viable strat in most of my matches and I really don't like it.
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He regularly loses/draws on any killer, even Nurse. He's closer in terms of skill to the average player than to the top ones.
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we are talking about survivor builds here because I want to talk about survivor builds here
I do not care how "vast" survivor meta perks are, that's not the point, the point is: survivors have many, many, many perks we'd love to run to have fun in the game, but we have to choose either we Queue to win or to have fun.
Either we sit on generators the whole match or we kiss that hook until we're out of the game. End of story.
If I want to run this build there will be 10 topics the next day here about how people don't do gens and how useless survivors are...
The hypocrisy is REAL!
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Absolutely true against good survs. We're just wishing it wasn't so.
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It's kinda annoying seeing "Otz says this", "Otz says that" lol there are better, less known DBD players whose opinion I value a lot more than his
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Okay
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Man I wish there weren't "mains" in this game, just players enjoying both roles. Too much us vs. them going on. I swear if most got up to and maintained a competent level in both roles, there'd be enough empathy going around to work out most issues.
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...
No.
Just...no.
- You don't get to hijack a thread about one thing and then say 'well, I want to talk about something else now so sod you'. Make your own thread if you want.
- Do you...not know what 'varied' means? It doesn't mean 'vast'. It means that you have far, far more viable builds than killers do in the current meta.
- Do you think it's fair to focus on buffing a handful of crap survivor perks when killers have far more crap perks?
- Plunderer is a perfectly fine perk. As is Pharmacy. They aren't top tier, but they don't have to be.
- Yes, doing the gens is what survivors are supposed to do? That's like saying 'well, killers need to be chasing and killing survivors to win'. It's not wrong, but also...duh?
- I spend a lot of my survivor matches interacting with the killer. I still win a goodly amount, and that's in solo queue. I like being chased.
- That makes absolutely no sense. No, seriously, what on earth are you on about?
- What hypocrisy?
Not sure if I'm being baited here or what.
...Okay?
It's not me agreeing or disagreeing with his video, it's just using it as a springboard for a discussion.
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still you followed
so what's the point? did we or did we not talk about survivor perks? So? did the world end? Did I make your life a little more miserable?
"hijack a thread"
And yeah, of course you found the best way to play the game and your idea of "fun" definitely is the absolute one, so we should follow, right? Interesting.
Good for you!
🙄
Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
But nothing about the Survivor gameplay loop interests me. It's based around the type of game I don't play. :T
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Ok... so a couple things I re-read
1) Gen regression isn't ruined (pun intended)... all that got the nerfed was Ruin (from 200% to 100%) and Pop (25% to 20%)
And Gen regression got a small (not good enough) of 2.5% of progression lost for every kick
2) And Gens went from 80 charges to 90 charges... which means Survivors that want the Gens done will bring Gen progression perks and not getting off of Gens to do nothing
And new Gen perks being released and Survivors are trying to make them work (with experiences ranging from "it's garbage" to "it's to powerful"
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