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Slowdown Perks SHOULDN'T BE NERFED!
Listen, I played Docktah and several other killers on maps like Garden of BS, ARTIST MAP, and so on... Like come on. Without slowdown Perks, it's a 0k pretty much every game. Most of the maps are entirely too big and have so many tiles that combo you're left defenseless. I'm playing on console since I have more unlocked there and it's a pain not being able to use mobility killers. (not billy... He's terrible now.)
Map design eventually HAS TO GET ADDRESSED!
Comments
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Two things can be problematic at once.
Is map design bad? yes, astoundingly so.
Are certain perks also unhealthily designed? Also yes.
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If they do a total rework of the maps, the problem of some perks that are too unbalanced will most likely disappear. The problem is that they will never make a sensible rework of the maps, just look at Eyre who from bad has been made less bad or the most recent of all, Decimated Borgo which shows how bad the level design of the maps is
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I think the current slowdown perks are very unhealthy. The fact that you can drag on a game for an hour is just stupid.
However, after experiencing how bad running no slowdown can get (games over in less than 5 minutes), I think gen speed also needs to be gutted. Ideally both regress and speed should both be toned down. Neither should be as extrem. Perks, addons and items should help but not guarantee wins against anyone who doesn't run the strongest stuff, because otherwise what's the point in there being more than 10 perks for both sides?
Map design has always been an issue and BHVR's design team are doing a great job when it comes to visuals but horribly bad when it comes to balancing. Eyrie, RPD, Garden of Pain and Borgo all look great but playing on these maps feels awful. Eyrie changed for the better but it still has the same issue it had before. A survivor could stand in the middle of the map and no matter where they go, they will waste a huge amount of the killer's time just by dropping a few pallets.
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I disagree, I think some maps are to small. Knight for example can just 3 gen forever nowadays
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skill issue
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There you can se how much is regression perk needed in tha games. This is how average high level game play looks like. And I experienced this mtaches many times. If I´m not meeting sandbaggers what are lowering their MMR on purpose.
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only eruption needs to be gutted
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I hate when people link videos and I'm not allowed to criticize the person playing in it.
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Maps like Eruption should be "game ruining" as long as perks like CoH and Dead Hard exist in their current form. Not only should Eruption exist but it should be buffed so that it affects SWF and solo players. What kind of buff should it have? Eruption ideally should just make all generators the killer kicked not be able to be stopped regressing for 45 seconds (the new cooldown timer for the perk).
Dead Hard should probably get a nerf on the order of : mending and healing take 100% longer. So now you can't afford to play with a "3rd health state" and to use DH you need to play wounded.
CoH should probably allow for 2 heals while it is in place and then needs to be reset. All dull totem locations should have the bones destroyed if the killer kicks them while a boon is active. Or the killer should be given a 5th perk slot that is for "hex related" perks only.
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Said in a different way - I am mediocre player, but I want to win even against Hens's squad 100% of all games. No thank you. This is not healthy at all
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Said in a different way :
Killers should have a base high level of regression
Perks like DH shouldn't be 50% or more effective than other exhaustion perks.
Eruption should affect SWF and solos equally (same for overcharge which people often forget is 100% negated by SWF but also destroys solo players).
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You already have 1 hour games until server shuts down. That clearly indicates REGRESSION PERKS are overtuned. And many killers can hold the game way longer then is healthy. This 100% needs fix.
On the other hand - sure. Survivor games should not last 5 minutes of genrush too (but keep in mind camping bubba case, survivors should still be able to 3-man out against afk camping bubba, or saves should become possible - don't forget huntress/trickster/pinky finger clown if your fix changes just killer).
I already said, that correct solution would be to nerf all regression perks and buff base regression (so stacking multiple regressions will overall loose power, but 0-1 regressions will feel better).
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Why do we have one hour games?
- A large majority of the killer cast is forced to play 3 gen or gtfo on most of the maps. I refuse to play Lerys or RPD "normally". You win when you 3 gen and you lose when you don't. This is a reflection of poor map design and overly safe loops with too many pallets/windows that can be chained together.
- Survivors have way too much gen progress addition compared to the killer's base kit. On top of this you can have way too many thing to make a 90 second objective be 20 seconds if you do XYZ. The 90 second objective should pretty much be at best you can make it an 81 second objective.
- Some people enjoy trolling to drag out the game to make the other side miserable.
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Why? Simple. Because horrible killers that can't catch anyone can decide to delete any progress survivors do. And I mean completely delete it. So if they can't catch anyone and nobody can progress gens, then the game continues until one side looses temper and gives up or game shuts down. There are 0 other reasons.
This is also the reason why I wish knight was deleted from the game. He is not super strong. He is not even super weak now. He is just super predictable and probably going to hold you in game for 30+ minutes.
Also from my perspective as survivor main. Please delete both RPDs. The maps are very killer sided even considering large number of pallets (exceptions exists - poor huntress) + considering the new main - pure and utter disgust whenever I notice it's this map, delete Borgo even if it has many pallets - the map always feels awful to play. Delete lery's as it's super killer sided yet again (even if it contains good number of pallets). And while we are at it - delete midwitch even if it has like 24 pallets. The map was never ever ever even remotely good for survivors. This about sums up my experience with (some) maps that have many pallets. And I think there's no redeeming them. I don't want remake. I want delete button
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you realize that knight cannot down anyone currently with his power in isolation? Like physically those games being that long show radical problem with how bad knight's chase efficiency is in regards to winning. The killer should not take 30 minutes to win games because their power is so ineffective at downing survivors. Also he is not only killer to able to 3 gen. almost every killer can 3 gen and a lot of other killer are a lot stronger at it then he is at 3 gen. Also, not every 3 gen for survivor is auto-loss. a lot of maps, you can break a 3 gen depending the map and how close proximity the 3 gens are.
I wish people would stop calling stuff they dislike as unhealthy designs. not everything is black and white. there is grey zones. Unpopular opinion, but eruption is not that bad. not every map is badly design either. it depends the killer and what tools you have to work with to win the match.
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Shattered Square is ######### design.
Garden of Joy is awful.
Eyrie is still pretty bad.
RPD is a crime against God.
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People have whined about slow down since the release of OG RUIN and the problem is still there... GEN SPEED. MOST M1 killers are utterly garbage WITHOUT slowdown. Pain Res & Jolt have saved a million games for me as Docktah.
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But that's the thing. There are slowdowns which are absolutely perfectly OK (corrupt, DMS, deadlock, ...) with one exception that is less problem of those/that perks and more of the killers (and I already talked about camping killers).
Also jolt and pain res are perfectly OK regressions. POP is a bit underwhelming, but still goes into same category of being OK perk.
The problem are the perks that allows killer's regression become so close to survivor's progression (without really chasing anyone), that killer is able to regress gens more then survivors can progress them. And for those "intelligent people" that now comes with math and show 1s progression is still more then 1s regression - I can only say go back to real world. You can't compare 1 to 1. Survivors can't force killer away from an area. Survivors can't stand next to killer and just do their gen. It will never be 1s against 1s. It will always be about how close regression is to progressions and if it's viable to throw away 3-4 gens to survivors for free and just camp my 3-4 gens from the start to an end of the game. And right now it's possible with some killers on some maps
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-"Also from my perspective as survivor main. Please delete both RPDs. The maps are very killer sided"
Delete all the farm maps except abattoir, Badham, Garden of Joy, Ormand and the knight's map for a start. Every single map on that list is massively survivor sided.
And we could only allow Nurse, Blight, Pyramid head, Nemesis to go to a map like The Game. Wouldn't that be fun?
There should be zero maps in the game that are 3 gen or gtfo. Every map that needs to be played like that needs a complete rework that will make the map smaller or make the loops way less safe.
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it's you who is complaining about maps. I just made a response. RPD's are killer sided even without 3gen. That 3gen is just insult to injury and devs made the map even worse. Also a lot of pallets means nothing if the map does not have any other resources. This is most visible in the game. Even Otz considers it killer sided (check his map tier list).
Also I would take abbatoir every day when that would mean deletion of rotten fields (yes map you consider strongly survivor sided).
Also we both agree on knight's map (I already mentioned borgo) is just terrible. I wonder who actually likes the map?
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If you do it in civil manners why not? Or there is a rule where you can´t say absolutely nothing about gameplay you saw in video?
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It's a strict enough rule that I'd rather not risk it
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Really? Or its because you have no argument against what happened in the video? My facts are that video. 4 minutes and 5 gens. And if you check Ace´s gen at the beggining what super fast progress it had, which was obvious BnP than thats ok I guess. Yes. Definitely killers does not need slowdowns. :D
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That knight was absolutely bad. He lost every single time on even LT. That video proofs just one thing. MMR can be VERY broken sometimes.
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It show AVERAGE HIGH MMR level of gameplay. These teammates are very average (in terms of frequency of having teammates like this in your team) at this level. And as I adressed. Knight has so many counters. Free escapes from his grasps by him and his summon and more. I lost against knight only few times. Its very dissapointing to see that people are still consider him as something uncounterable. DH counter his chases completely. One perk on survivor side completly delete Knight´s special power while chasing. Only Nurse, Blight or maybe Oni can compete with good survivors. And even then. Only survivor´s skill decide about if killer gets something or not. Killer can help it by mind games, but if survivor know what he is doing and can constantly loop killers then killer is in position of deciding about if leave it adn hope that another survivor will be worse at looping or take a risk and tunnel survivor out. This video was an example like it looks like when you know what you´re doing. Killer is not power role here. Its survivor what do mistakes big enough to give killer option to control match a little bit.
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Any 115% killer should be able to get LT without using ANY power for 50%. In real high MMR - ask specifically about this loop any streamer with at least 2k hours. But that guy in video lost EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. IDK maybe survivors were "high MMR". But the killer got filled to that match or he was sleepy or he had such a bad luck, that he should maybe invest in lottery (if his luck changes to even things out, he should win now).
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Yes, really.
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Do you know what I read from your post? This. "OR" "OR" "OR" "OR" "OR" "OR". There is no "OR". There is prime example how it looks like in high mmr. By logic of certain complainers there is not a single chance to escape killer and especially Knight. These people, in the video, have 6000+ hours most of the time. They know EXACTLY how to loop killer for eternity. Thats what my teammates looks like and its pretty common to see them at high MMR. That "OR" is excuse and not argument at all. Give me EVIDENCE that he did it wrong. I can make these excuses as well. For example...
- Theese videos about nerfing Eruption are wrong. The killer mayb had luck. OR the survivors were just bad. OR if survivors played better than it would be absolutely different match. OR htey were just filled to hig MMR because of soft gap. OR they had bad luck. OR killer was absolutely unbeatable which wasn´t survivor´s fault.
Thats not how its working. You can see how it looks like in HIGH MMR. Your "OR" is just hope that would with big maybe work. Yet its ONLY THEORY AT BEST. Theory about what "IF" isn´t something what can be considered as something provable.
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Sure. Survivors can loop BAD KILLERS for eternity. That's how it's supposed to work. If beginner killer with precisely 1hr could 4K easily against survivors with 10k hrs each, then maybe the game has design problems. Any good killer should win on LT's in 50% chance. Heck very good killer should still have some small chance against very good survivors even on long wall (and I am not even counting killers like blight, spirit, nurse, artist, ....).
Also your proof is: Ask any of the streamers as I already said. Even killer mains will tell you
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I think Map Rebalancing [Not graphical updates] should be a problem to address as well, as well as Generators speeds at the start. There should be a Endgame Collapse system, that also effects the begin of the game; that completely hinder or deny any potential gen rushing potionial that is made. It should be basekit, and make it so that Killer, especially low tier has a shot of wining possible 4k or securing a good amount of hooks; before the Survivors do can pick themselves back up and be able to apply pressure and complete objectives faster.
It can be as simple as making Generators at the start the Match be completely useless, until they find a gen part to hook it up; it can be that the Entity blocks the gens that is closely to the survivor spawn point and pushes them to the center of the map and face to face with the killer (Basekit Corrupt Intervention). It can be anything that makes Survivors working on gens less of a first priority and at least delay the killer or completely a different first objective; before they can touch the gen and hurry on repair it.
Sure, there is the problem of camping and tunnelling as the fastest and efficient method of eliminating a Survivor from the game; but we could implement new mechanics such as "losing a Survivor, will mean buffing the others survivor in gen speed, faster movement speed, and healing, etc." It can also be buff so that if a Survivor or more dies, some of the built-in basekit slowdown/gen requirement/or even objectives be reduced significantly. As result of a killer camping and tunnelling, and instead of going for different hooks and waiting for them to die in the end; they would instead end up giving the Survivors more opportunities to escape instead of efficiency of killing.
Just a interesting thought, maybe as results of these changes, we can then nerf the gen regression perks or rework fo do something else; as well as survivors perks that increases their survivability and gen repair speeds. Map changes would be nice, but if my proposal of reworking the core base game mechanics of how Killer win efficiency as well as survivors win efficiency; we can see healthier and more fun changes to the game, as a while. It's not going to be easy, as if we buff a side, the other side is going to complain about it; and vise verse.
I think Map Balancing, Core Gameplay mechanic such as Gen Repairs, and Camp/tunnelling needs reworks and nerfs; as well as the introduction of some sort of incentives for killer to hook everyone and for survivors to do something else that is fun and engaging to make their boring Gen repair fast and easier; yet rewarding for the killer to give them more time to pressure and secure hooks and kills without perks!
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"-RPD's are killer sided even without 3gen. Also a lot of pallets means nothing if the map does not have any other resources.
" Even Otz considers it killer sided (check his map tier list)."
Otz is a very smart/good player but everything he says is not automatically true. Plague is not fun on RPD if nobody cleanses and they loop the pallets well. It's very easy to blast gens and finish the map quickly. You have enough pallets so that she can't really ever apply much pressure.
RPD is maybe Nemesis, Nurse, Blight and Pyramid Head sided. That's nothing different than The Game map. Pig sucks on both maps and it's not fair to say that those maps are favorable to her. That's just not a true statement.
Rotten field would be a lot more interesting if it were a 9000m² map.
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I would love to see official stats for kill/escape rates on both maps. I am pretty sure you will be surprised how even the game in fact is and how killer sided RPD is overall (but sure, there are killers that will have problem on it)
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The last patch made it so west rpd almost never had more than 1 gen in the main room. I think the devs saw that and said : this map needs 2 gens in the main room like east.
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I think they acknowledged this was a bug. And good riddance. They both are killer sided even after this bug is fixed
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