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Why are Killers punished with Nerfs while survivors still haven’t?
Two perks I see in every single match.
Dead Hard & Adrenaline.
when will these two be nerfed effectively? I know DH isn’t as useful as it used to be but it is rather annoying when the survivors 180s into you and you instinctively hit them just for them to become the flash and bolt through you. Adrenaline is even worse! It ignores exhaustion so you can combo it with other perks to make it so you can cross map in the endgame. Not even mentioning it heals on hooks!
It just feels like Killers always either get terrible perks or the perks that we are forced to use against the survivor meta gets nerfed hard. Hex: Ruin is garbage now, NOED needed a nerf but is rather easy to get rid of now, and now eruption.
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at the moment 4 killer perks are much weaker than 16 survivors perks
but as soon as the killers become dangerous, the survivors start crying and the killers are nerfed to the ground
the developers are completely on the side of the survivors, they fully confirmed this when they said that hard of hearing survivors will receive special bonuses, but hard of hearing killers will not receive anything
Post edited by EQWashu on9 -
um? Cause survivors got kicked in the face when
DS, Boil over, iron will, Object of obsession, mettle of man, keys, insta heals, we’ll make it, balanced landing, exhaustion, sprint burst, self care, flashlights, toolboxes, entity blockers ALL got nerfed.
Oh but when killers one actually op perk gets nerfed its automatically WAHH WAHH they never nerf survivors they always listen to them!!! WAHH IM SO UPSET!!
Post edited by EQWashu on8 -
DS still is a good anti-Tunnel perk, Boil Over is currently being abused on some maps, and Sprint Burst is still highly viable not just in chase but to also cross map.
And all those other things either got nerfed because of game design changes (keys and insta heals) or because they stacked so well together it made it extremely hard to counter (flashlight spamming and Iron Will).
Toolboxes are still good. Especially in a StakeOut + Hyperfocus build since a tool box can trigger more skill checks than without one.
Selfcare did get a pretty heavy nerf but it’s sister perk COH is just it but better.
Yet none of these perks have been completely destroyed like how Eruption, Ruin, and Thana got “nerfed”. There is a difference between “oh we lowered its power so it’s not as aggressive” and “we made this useless and now we’re going to not buff any of the other things that could compensate it”.
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Really? DS is just bad, it can be triggered just once per match and is actually 2 seconds to run, with a killer like nurse or blight you can't do nothing.
Iron Will is only useful if you don't have any exhaustion perk, sprint burts forces you to walk, boil over only work if the survivor takes you to a corner and you can just slug.
Self care is dead an CoH needs a totem to work.
So I don't know why people are complaining, is just one perk, you still can use call of brine, overcharge, jolt, pain resonance (still good perk)
"And all those other things either got nerfed because of game design changes (keys and insta heals) or because they stacked so well together it made it extremely hard to counter (flashlight spamming and Iron Will)."
Yes, same with slowdown perks, they stacked so well together and that's why they's nerfing them
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If the DS was still 5 seconds, then the survivors would take it in the amount of 4 pieces along with off the record, dead hurd, adrenaline and this would be a new tank build, the problem in DS is not because he is strong because of 5 seconds, but the fact that it can stack with other perks and this creates an endless chase.
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"um? Cause survivors got kicked in the face when"
- Because survivors are getting nerfs ONLY if its too much obvious that they made it overpowered. Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- DS - In the right hands its very usefull. It was abused too much. Or you think it should have unlimited using and without skill checks? Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- Boil Over - Still very and very strong. Body blocking while you have boil over most of the time force killer to drop you. I´ve seen only one killer what was able to comprehend what to do against it. Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- Iron Will - I guess for you it was ok to have perk that completely counter specific killer and made you stealthy no matter what. :D Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- Object of Obsession - Having info about killer all the time was fine for you? And even then. Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- Mettle of man - Still not nerfed enough. Only slightly debuffed. Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- Keys - Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- Instaheals - Do you remember how long it took them to nerf it?
- We´ll make it - Super strong perk. Very clutchy. In match where every second is important its hilarious. Ihave it as a base perk in every single game. Speed is absolutely hilarious for whole 90 seconds. :D Yes. Definitely super nerfed. :D
- Balanced Landing/Sprint Burst - These perks are most of the time seen with Vigil. And Vigil for those perks is super strong. You can´t imagine how silly it is when you have vigil and any exhaustion perk.
- Exhaustion - Do you remember how long it took them to add it?
- Self Care - The only REAL nerf.
- Flishlights - Well... fixing a bugs is nerf? :D
- Toolboxes - BnP´s are still a thing most of the time when you are at high level of gameplay. I saw BnP and Engeneers toolboxes very often. I´m using it as well, because BnP have stupidly easy skillchecks. So nerfs in toolboxes? Where? I´ve noticed only questionable BnP nerf.
- Entity blockers... hmmm.... sure because infinites was not problem at all, huh? :D Do you remember how many infinites was at maps? :D Or you don´t want to?
"Oh but when killers one actually op perk gets nerfed its automatically WAHH WAHH they never nerf survivors they always listen to them!!! WAHH IM SO UPSET!!"
- Actually OP? Hmmmm.... so lets see... a lot of top players were consistently countering so called OP perks easily yet somehow it was OP. :D Sure. Yet somehow is fine when 5 gens in 4 minutes and 10 seconds is easy thing. How many people you´lle see with other perks than with perks what are actually usefull and not useless? Survivors have tons of combos of perks. A lot of perks cooperate with perks of others and yet killer´s are not. And when they do, then its nerfed. On killer side is nerf almost instant. On survivor side its after years of video proofs. Eruption was countered by getting good. Which is why people hate Eruption. They´re not good and thats a problem.
- And when I use your analogy... anytime when perk is a littlebit usefull its still WAAA WAAAA I can´t learn how to counter things what are easily counterable and isntead of it nerf it. I don´t want to earn my escape. I want easy escape. Killers are OP. NERF.
- Do you see how silly it sounds?
- Or when devs by your words are favoring killers so much can you explain why Twins needed 3 attempts to fix their camera bug? And even now its still questionably working.
But hey. :D Killers are the complainers what have no rights to complain, huh? :D And don´t forgot to use commonly overused argument how you are and how experienced you are and how you´ve never been beaten and have 4 kills perkless against TOP SWF teams.
Post edited by EQWashu on4 -
This post just shows you play strictly killer. Calling DS and MoM good perks requires.... A lot of imagination. Its exactly the same thing as calling current thana (not counting legion and plague) still a good perk.
Like DS became "loose deep wound once per match" perk. Nobody uses it for a tual anti-tunneling, because most killers can down you within 6s most of the time (you will not die next to strong-enough loop - you would not need DS and if there's not strong loop then DS is pointless).
Also there are miriads of things that got nerfed on survivors. Like whole hiding playstyle is not an option any more, because maps are now bright. And don't even start me on specific things that got nerfed (but sure - devs are surv sided - that's why odds are survivor get killed in any random match instead of how it used to be where odds were survivor escapes - definitely surv-sided changes)
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Yes. Thats why I have iri 1 on survivor every season easily. :D Sure. :D Something else?
"And don't even start me on specific things that got nerfed"
Start, please. I´m wondering how big is that skill gap between me what is able to easily counter Knight and you what is able to think that Wesker need nerf.
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Still see all of these perks often. They are not nerfed. They are still useable. Killer perks you physically cannot use or you lose. You are taking broken examples that needed nerfed. Like hex: undying, iri hatchet, pinky finger completely different lol
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But to bring up iri hatchet that took 5 years to be nerfed
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btw iridescent hatchet took 5 years to be nerfed you not going to talk about that? We still have tombstone, Spirits MDR, blights Compound 33 and Alch ring? Oh your going to ignore it to fit your mentality that we’re oppressed.
Post edited by EQWashu on5 -
Where did I write wesker needs nerf? The killer is pretty fine the way he is (sure, tunneling and infection could get fixed, but there are a lot more problems with other killers making wesker one of the best designed killers right now).
All I wrote is that you considering MoM broken speaks a lot about you. The perk is trash. It has too many downsides. Very similar to no mither (very strong effect, that just brings way too large negative for it to be useful).
And for nerfs - let's start with
- original version of DS the very first one. That thing was actually broken.
- Boil over - last time it got buffed it was also broken and basically guaranteed escape - as a result it got nerfed right the next patch. It's useless now if you are killer with at least 300hrs (it happened exactly once that BO saved against me hooking someone - and the main reason is still successful sabo and me just barely not making it to hook because I ran into it - because you can just catch rhythm and 95% negate the effect).
- Infinite window vaulting got removed.
- Infinite loops got removed.
- Permanent sabotages got removed.
- Trapper's traps can no longer be sabotaged.
- Pre-sabotaging got removed.
- Number of loops and pallets got removed.
- Double window at shack got removed.
- Actual pallet interaction got nerfed very badly once smash hit got introduced.
- Reverse stuns got removed (or at least reduced to high degree).
- Instant flash saves got removed
- Keys got butchered to oblivion making it most useless item in game.
- BNP got nerfed really heavily.
- Instaheals are no longer insta.
and so on. But still people will complain, that devs are survivor sided. Even if survivors complain from inception of this game about camping, tunneling and pokos hits and none of these got fixed to this date. Sure. Very much survivor-sided developers.
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DS: Took a few years
Boil Over: Better than it's original form
Iron will: Again, long time coming.
Object of Obsession: A better version that even alerts you to the killers location if they see you
Mettle of Man: I think even the survivors kicked this one. No one enjoyed it.
Keys: technically never got a nerf, the hatch did, but somewhat still valid
We'll make it: When was this nerfed?
Balanced landing: Still does quite a bit of stagger reduction and isnt useless like every killer perk in recent times.
Exhaustion: Valid
Sprint Burst: Again, hasn't been nerfed since the exhaustion change, dont double dip here to pad lists.
Self Care: This one actually confuses me a lot. I heard survivors complain that it was useless, and it got nerfed still. I dunno what to think about this one. Incompetence?
Flashlights: Boohoo you can't give people seizures for your enjoyment.
Toolboxes: Not a nerf. In fact new version is pretty neat and allows for emergency speedy repairs.
Entity Blockers: Are a ######### joke. I looped a wesker on one building because the blockers are so ######### easy to trick into not spawning.
Killers getting perks buffed, only to be nerfed to the ground is a consistent pattern that keeps happening, and I'm starting to become pretty confident its deliberate, though I dont know why.
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Sales probably. A “buy this pack to get the good perk” then they nerf it later so survivors and twitch streams come back.
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"but hard of hearing killers will not receive anything"
Yeah, this. It's all you need to know.
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"original version of DS the very first one. That thing was actually broken"
- Oh you think? I thought there is nothing for you, on survivor side, what is broken. You speak always like evrything about survivors is ballanced. Why do you think it was broken?
"Boil over"
- As was mentioned above still better than original form. I´m using it a lot and no matter what it always give killer difficult times. But I guess on your level, read low MMR, its something unacceptable.
"Infinite window vaulting got removed."
- After years. Or you forgot? Just because they removed it they deserve medal? On Dead Dawg Saloon is infinite around main building. You can do it for such a loong time when killer will be finally able to reach you. At this map I´m able to loop killer around main building for 9 minutes straight. Only highest level of Bloodlust give him enough speed to broke that looping. But then its over. Only high mobility killers have chance to get you there. And just because they removed it that justify that huge amount of time to "undone" these things?
"Infinite window vaulting got removed"
- Such a heroic deed. How long it took them to rewmove it? Just because they removed it that justify that huge amount of time to "undone" these things?
"Number of loops and pallets got removed"
- Pick Windows of Oportunity and check maps like Lery´s Memorial and another maps. Then go back and tell that once again. :D
"Actual pallet interaction got nerfed very badly once smash hit got introduced."
- Thats only skill issue, honey.
"Reverse stuns got removed (or at least reduced to high degree)"
- Removed or reduced? Choose between them, please. :D
"Keys got butchered to oblivion making it most useless item in game."
- If you don´t know how to use them, then sure. Its pointless to use it on levels where people are living in a world where Knight is uncounterable. :D
"BNP got nerfed really heavily."
- You mean they finally are not utterly broken? And heavily you mean easy skillchecks what I can do even if I would be drunked? Yes. Such a huge nerf. Thats Why I have them against me as a killer most of the time. :D They are easy to use even for people with horribly slow reflexes. Its not difficult at all to get maximum from BnP. Anytime I can do them easily no matter what. It should be much much faster and skillchecks much more smaller. Now its too easy to land skill check. But its a NEEEERF, right? :D :D It displays your lack of knowladge about the game when you don´t know what you can do and how to maximize potential of all addons and items for survivors.
"Instaheals are no longer insta."
- Wow. Another heroic deed where I can kneel before BHVR and thanks them for removed instahealing what shouldn´t be even thing. :D But yes.... Again. How long it took them to undone it?
"But still people will complain, that devs are survivor sided."
- Adding visible terror radius for HARD HEARING survivors. For HARD HEARING KILLERS .... oh wait.
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Dead Hard already got a nerf and outside of VERY SPECIFIC KILLERS can generally be played around.
Adrenaline is a perk that has no value unless you last to the end of the game, so it has to be powerful.
Nerf something that actually appears in almost every game like CoH.
Post edited by Rizzo on4 -
I am pretty those perks might be nerfs if seen in Meta rooster next Mid chapter patch, and if it was up to me to nerf it.
Dead Hard could be reworked and nerf, so that it no longer allows you to used a action command and requires the killer to hit you regardless; no skill required just have no exhaustion and deep wound status effect. Once you get hit, you will not be able to used any interaction for 2 seconds, along with the broken status effect. No touching gens, no interacting with exit gates, and no dropping pallets. No healing and possible applying a ultra red add-ons to tank another hit or heal until two seconds are over. If you want to nerf it some more, maybe make it 60 seconds instead of 40, of exhaustion recovery at tier 3.
As for Adrenaline, they could allows to have both, but never both at once. If you are healthy, you get a speed boost even if exhausted. If you are injured, you can heal instantly but no speed boost. If you are hooked, no heals and speed boost. If the nerfs is too much, I will be down with giving one benefit in which Survivors whom are hooked and got off, can fully heal themselves without a medkit; like built in self care... with the additional benefit of not being effect by any Mangled/Hemorrhage status effect. A free 16 seconds of Healing themselves without a medkit during Endgame.
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The devs only mentioned two perks, I doubt they're limiting their changes to just them in the near future.
Eruption was just public enemy no. 1 for making solo queue absolutely hellish, 3-gens were basically an instant win condition rather than just a very advantageous position.
Really I'm more upset at how Eruption got nerfed. I don't think it's a very enticing information perk, and 10% of current is... pathetic. It could probably be run on killers like nurse and oni, I suppose? I'm sure BHVR can come up with a lot of interesting ideas for it, and I wish they'd taken more of a risk for its redesign.
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So to sum up your response - yes you are right. They did all that. But it took them too long and they actually did it so no devs are survivor sided.... like... ????????
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Why do people have it out for Adrenaline so much?
Normally I understand the positions that pop up a lot for certain perks, like- Dead Hard I get, even if I disagree on a lot of the specifics people talk about. Prove Thyself and Circle of Healing I also understand, even if those perks really aren't even all that good on their own, because they're sort of the face of wider speed problems in the game, but Adrenaline? It's strong, sure, but it's far from OP. What's going on there?
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I really hope adrenaline is changed so it doesn't work when a survivor or being carried or hooked
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more like "why BHVR can't buff/nerf at once for both side?"
Like, it shouldn't be that hard to do one nerfs/buffs for each side when we have countless problem out there.
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"Here have some loud cgase music to appreciate our chase music instead of being able to locate survivors"
Remember when they addd sound occlusion (or however its called) and now you cant hear gens through windowed wooden walls.
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so much crying here lmfao
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If DS is so bad, then why is everyone taking it?
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We have not even seen the nerfs to survivors yet. Can we wait for PTB yes?
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Dead hard is good now ,,
Adrenaline will never be touched because essentially you play with 3 perks until last gen pops,and even then if you aren't in chase or injured it's useless
Ds got destroyed it's practically useless in most cases now ( it had to cuz it was absurdly strong)
Iron will is just not worth it anymore with the exhaustion condition
Circle got nerfed twice (rightfully so) and word around the forums is it will be nerfed again down the line
Killers got universal buffs in the meta shakeup patch
What i would like to see for survivor nerfs is prove/hyperfocus/bnps gutted and thrown into outer space
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Please check the name of this thread. Maybe you will actually understand the response on which you are reacting. OP literally asked in title: Why are Killers punished with Nerfs while survivors still haven’t?
To which the answer was - survivors were "punished" way more then killers (but I will agree with you, that a lot of those nerfs were deserved - but it does not change the fact, that eruption + other kick gen perks combo was just as broken as old 100% BNP - so in fact threads like this one are part of the problem).
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"Killers got universal buffs in the meta shakeup patch"
- Can you elaborate how killers got buffs?
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All they need to do with DH is give it some extra properties and it can be balanced. Probably a revamped incapacitated? No pallet throwing or vaulting for five seconds? Just something to lessen its impact outside the third health state. Adrenaline in my opinion is like current NOED. Hyper annoying. But unlike NOED it has a lot going for it. It has a heal, speed boost, and can defy the hooks if you’re taken off of them. If they just tweaked it a little so that it doesn’t do two on top of each other then it would be fine. You hurt? Have a heal. You healed? Have some speed. But it shouldn’t affect you in certain situations, in the killers grasp or on the hook.
Most killer end game perks require you to build up to them (besides NOED but that’s NOED) like No Way Out or Remember Me. Hell Blood Warden Requires you to put someone on a hook after the gates open. The gates that can be 99.9999ed to the point that the animation doesn’t play.
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didn't they get faster recovery from hits / faster pallet breaking and some other minor stuff ?
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Like by .3 seconds on some of them? Or at least that was what I remember reading. The buffs didn’t fully help the way the Devs made it sound. Because “reducing the animation time by 10%” on a 3 second animation is just… 2.7 seconds.
Kinda like how alot of the “Current progression” kick perks suck because 10% of a 20% done gen is 2%. Bring it down to 18% than can be fixed in… like 3 to 4 seconds on the gen? So almost the same time it took to kick you can fix. Now at higher progress it’s has harder it hits but if 7, 8, 9% of a Gen is considered “harsh” then they really need to rethink what that word means.
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Ooh i never implied it was smth major ,weren't also the sprint bursts survivors get after gettin hit reduced as well ? My point was it's not just killers gettin the nerf hammer
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It became a true anti-tunnel perk. Which is great and I love it that way, and you’re 100% correct.
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it did I believe. From 10 to… 7 I think? Or perhaps 8?
And the math was more there to explain that those “buffs” aren’t that grand. Especially compared to the thing that did help killers which was the extra ten seconds on the gen timer.
lastly I do know survivors get the nerf hammer too, it just feels like the killers perspective is never looked at when it comes to these things. Like who actually looks at these Eruption changes and thinks “That’s a good perk!” It sucks for both sides. It’s going to cause slugging and gives you information at a time when you don’t need it. Now if it did something alongside the information then that could be interesting. Increased movement speed? Exposing the gen survivors for a certain amount of time? Blocking Vaults or Pallets around the gen for while? There is a way to make this nerf good but not irritating for survivors or killers (The Exposed one can definitely work now that Nurse can’t nuke you with her blink attack)
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Oooh surely ,,i hate eruption deeply and all the meta built around it but my only issue was the incapacitated effect,,generally speaking devs often miss the fine line between nerf and nuke ,,,i'm just glad the drop chase/ kick gen fiesta is gonna stop soon cuz it's borderline as interesting as watching paint dry up,,and as stated by Mandy more perks will be revisited down the line and i kinda feel it's gonna be mostly surv stuff
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Oh I know. I hated pure regression builds and never really ran it. My only problem is my M1 Killer build had eruption in it to help slow down the game because they refuse to help those poor souls out. My Trapper is going to be worse than Dark Theory if he can’t slow down the game.
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M1 killers don't need help from perks cuz those help the already stronger killers as well,,i wish they sit down and look every M1 based killer individually and give them targeted buffs, like trapper starting with more traps on him ,better trap spawns ( on swamp you can literally finish 3 gens if you rush before they are done settin up )
Edit poor wording,,,they shouldn't rely on perks like eruption to make up for inherent major weaknesses
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Trapper can be so easy to buff too. Give him all his Traps and turn his bags into movement add-ons for when someone gets trapped. Give him Haste for 5 seconds for the green and 10 for his purple. It would do him wonders.
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I think adrealine should not work off the hook anymore. I have games where i minimun see 2 of them usually so getting off the hook healthy is a little overkill. Now with the new survivor hud survivors have learned to time it well.
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Yes it did absolutely nothing. It's only a miracle that immediately after the buff killers had 3,5 out of 4 kills on average and once the dust settled their killrate went from 49% to 61%. Absolutely invisible insignificant buffs that did nothing.
Especially nerfed DS that (obviously) raised the amount of tunneling thru the roof (so much that it's kind of rare to see killer NOT tunnel any more) - because devs said they will help with camp&tunnel and nerfing DS is obviously way to go (and don't even start me on best-designed perk OTR that works as antitunnel perk only if killer does not really tunnel - because otherwise you get hit within first 2s out of hook).
But this is just a cherry-on-top. There are multitudes of changes out of which killers always find just one so they can downplay the effects and outright ignore kill rate change.
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So You’re upset that the kill rate went from 1.94 (around 49%) to 2.34 (around 61%)? That’s just a healthy amount. That means on average two survivors get out of the gates every match. With at least 8.5% of the time only one gets away.
but that’s just following the math to logical conclusion. In practicality these numbers probably don’t fully reflect most games due to outlying factors like DCs or Hook Suicide.
Also the meta shake up scared people away from using the old meta but after it was clear that the nerds weren’t as bad as people thought they went back. Its pick rate is still super high. I think I saw a video from a week or two ago where they showed the stats from like 188 games? DH was in 40 odd-ish percent of them, that’s 75 matches. DS was only in like 15% of them. So like 28-30 matches in total? which is low but like another person pointed out to me “It’s no longer a run to the corner for a free escape perk”.
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i didn’t even play this game till 2018 and infinites from the videos I saw were incredibly unfair.
nice to assume huh
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Why does every discussion of buffs for Killers have to include the insinuation that Killer players are constantly being victimised? Just offer some suggestions to improve the QoL for Killers. Don't preemptively wrap yourself in a martyrdom blanket and throw yourself off the roof.
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In a game where mmr exists 61% sustained "winrate" (remember killer is playing 4 matches at once) it's hell of a unhealthy thing. It means 200hrs killer will probably at least tie 5k hrs lobby. Also the killrate was way above 61% until things settled. Also DC's don't count into stats (as devs already said) and suicides are more then covered by merci escapes and farming killers.
So yes. It is problem. And you first saying "it didn't help" while it changed killrate by 12% speaks very loudly about your opinions.
Also if DS nerf wasn't so bad... Why did killers start to tunnel that much more then before patch 6.1? Why no killer ever respects DS? And why would survivor get downed in a safe spot and not actually use the resources (because dying in deadzone means DS is just bleed-resetting perk for DH)?
Meaning perk that is designed to combat one of the most utilized and most optimal strats most of killers do... This perk is by your numbers used in about 4% of survivors. Makes you wonder if the perk is not actually bad at it's sole job.
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