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Why Dead Hard is Unreasonably Powerful

birkineer
birkineer Applicant Posts: 80
edited February 2023 in General Discussions

So in a previous post I had a comment where someone tried to argue that waiting it out is valid counterplay in all situations, and I ended up writing an essay about how wrong they were. Thought it was worth a post.

I know this is kind of long, mb. Read before you comment please! I promise I'm not just an entitled killer player!

In summary, Dead Hard is not balanced because against nearly all killer powers, it can completely deny value in an unskilled reactionary manner, and is uncounterable on pallets. (which survivors will most certainly be playing around.)


Dead hard is an unfair, unbalanced, and in many situations, uncounterable perk. People argue that theres prediction and skill in DH, however this is untrue. Theres only any prediction involved on vaults and deadzones, in which the killer will just typically not swing. In that aspect, waiting out DH is possible and I commend any dead hard landed there because its genuinely good play that took brainpower.

However when it comes to pallets, the things survivors stick to like glue and are on most loops, the "wait it out" argument is utterly pointless.

Survivor is looping the killer, injured w/ DH. They make a loop around where the killer in theory could lunge and down them, however the killer wont do that because DH exists. Meaning the survivor gets closer and closer to the pallet, and they DH straight ahead.

Only 2 things can happen here.

  • Survivor dead hards, killer doesnt swing, pallet is dropped. Distance, chase reset.
  • Survivor dead hards, killer DOES swing, survivor continues looping the undropped pallet.

The survivor could drop the pallet on a successful dead hard, but its unlikely if their smart. and even if they do that the pallet is still dropped and they arent down, refer to outcome 1.

This means effectively, the killer has absolutely 0 options against a dead hard user on a pallet. Not to mention the very existence of dead hard can and has often given non DH users a pallet, because the killer assumes they have it (at first) and treats the chase as so, causing option 1 just without the dead hard.


And of course theres the blatant fact that many, many killer powers are just removed by dead hard. This is gonna be a looonnnggg list.

Billy- Very easy timing due to clear telegraphing, cant be waited out because he will get stunned and has very low turn rate.

Nurse- Harder to time, but if done right the nurse cant do anything. Can only be waited out if you make a perfect direct blink to the survivor, which will likely never happen because of double backs and LOS denial. Secondary blinks have no chance.

Huntress- So easy its sad. Visual+Audio cue, and the hatchet flies fast enough that DH will almost always catch it. How to wait? Just dont use your power, but then your a slow killer with no power.

Myers- DH denies exposure downs as well, refer back to the DH on pallets section.

Bubba- Very telegraphed, refer to billy minus the turn rate.

Pig- Literally an extended lunge that stuns her if she misses, either the dh lands or pig actively tries to miss to avoid on hit burst.

Spirit- IN THEORY, an absolutely cracked player could dh her, buts its unlikely and a real show of skill. I debated her inclusion here.

Plague- Very, very telegraphed. Audio+Visual cue, corrupt purge now works like a nemmy tentacle.

Ghostie <3- Refer to myers.

Demopupper - Shred is also very telegraphed, and has enough of a travel time to be DHed via reaction time. Cant wait it out unless survivor dumb, therefore cant use shred.

Oni- Refer to billy.

PH- Very loud audio cues, and baitable. DHing this is rather challenging but it still cant be countered (except mid animation hits).

Blight- Now requires 3 rushes to hit an injured survivor, leaving room for mistakes, plays, and pallets. Can be waited though and isnt a huge issue.

Twins- Pounce isnt removed from the game bc of DH, however ranged pounces are. You now have to walk up to a survivor and hold pounce until you think its safe.

Trickster- Refer to huntress, though because of his large blade count he can just keep firing.

Artist- The antiloop birds are stationary, and show their path to you directly. You can simply DH while going through that path, and those birds will not hit you no matter what. HOWEVER, I would like to mention that DHing a crossmap is actually so impressive and I love to see it, keep up the good work (talking to you meg).

Sadako- TV teleport speed bonus now means nothing as you have to wait the DH. Manifestation mindgames can just panic DH on a loop, refer to DH on pallets.

Dredge- Remants, like artist birds, how their exact location and where their facing (due to seeing when dredge began charge up). Can be waited, but that just takes the fun out of dredge remnant TPs. And this is a game where fun is king, so...

Wesker- Refer to demopupper. Can bait with first dash, but the repositioning can scuff up your second, leading to distance and possibly a chase lost.

Knight- Guards just attack when your close, so just run at one and the E key becomes the sprint burst key.


Okay, Now say it with me. Dead Hard is unbalanced, unhealthy, unfun, and in many situations, uncounterable.


Edit: I was actually curious just how much time a successful dead hard guarantees in a chase, so I did some calculations.

On-hit burst last 1.8 seconds, moving at 6.6m/s. I'm going to count the killer as standing still because they might as well be. I went and made an equation for this.

(1.8 x 6.6)+(2.7-18)4) / 0.6 = 25.8

(1.8 x 6.6)+(2.7-18)4) / 0.4 = 38.7

I could be wrong, mightve made a mistake or two down the line. But according to this if a survivor runs in a straight line after their burst, it will take the killer 26 seconds to catch up at 115%, and 39 seconds at 110%. Dont take this as fact though, I'm not amazing at math. I was just curious and though it was worth the inclusion.

Post edited by birkineer on

Comments

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    congratulations, that is what's meant by waiting it out. And if you do that regularly, the first instinct to dodge will be correct and you'll eat it anyway.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,949

    Sometimes, people just get lucky. Sometimes, they read you.


    It's why I try to get a good idea of how everyone plays. I'll always swing immediately though by default, people have learned to wait for the swing, they never expect the instant swing.

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    If it's after five seconds or something on first chase, I think it goes beyond reading. Maybe I'm being too paranoid, but perfect timing on weird outliers like that when such cheats are possible REALLY bugs me.

  • legacycolt
    legacycolt Member Posts: 1,684

    Nah, dead hard is very counterable now that it’s nerfed. I’m sure you swing into it more often than you should. Playing killer isn’t easy, just keep practicing.

  • Piruluk
    Piruluk Member Posts: 995

    Actually this is the most common cheat used by the so called subtle cheaters. I always suspect it when no matter what you do there is always the perfect DH reaction

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    It's a little bit of both. That really good or lucky gameplay is indistinguishable from cheating because it's reaction based is what leaves it open to this.

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 2,227

    "uncounterable"

    Then why 90% of the killers that I get always wait for DH to the point that I stopped using it? 😂

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,900

    The only thing that's gone is 'DH for distance'. In its place we have 'wait till you get close enough to the pallet, then DH and hope the killer won't hit you in the 0.1 seconds window between DH and pallet drop'. By the way this is highly depending on ping as well so no, you actually can't time it as killer. You just hope to get lucky.

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,900

    I highly doubt they went back on it all the way. I still get hit validation at pallets every now and then.

  • Gamall
    Gamall Member Posts: 487

    "Uncounterable"

    Yes, if you have less than 10 hours

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,522

    It still favour killers more I sometimes get hits which I don't even hit and have gotten hook grabs after unhook has happened.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 7,997

    While I agree with the idea that DH at pallets is obnoxious and unreasonably difficult to counter (though, it is possible, for the record), I think some of the killers on your list are pretty misleading there. In fact, most killers can either realistically bait or just play around DH some other way- the only real exception I can think of is Huntress, there's not that much she can do beyond bringing anti-exhaustion perks/addons.

    Like, take Bubba, for example. He's on this list because he has a tight window to damage and can't wait it out, which is true! But... what then? Let's say you're on a survivor, you rev, you swing, they hit E... you keep swinging, you down them. Bubba doesn't give half a solitary damn about Endurance, it's part of what makes him such an impressive facecamper- doesn't matter if you had Borrowed Time pre-6.1, he can just swing through it.

    Similar concept with Plague. Yeah, she's not likely to avoid hitting Dead Hard with her red puke, but... then she just readies it again, and unless they ran in a straight line out into the open, they're still gonna be close enough to get the next hit a few seconds later. There are a few killers on this list that can't avoid hitting Dead Hard, but also don't care about hitting Dead Hard.

    Like I said, though, you are right about Dead Hard at pallets- minus glossing over the counterplay that does exist, but I don't think it's consistent enough that it'd really undercut your point, so, mostly still right. Addressing that would leave DH in a much healthier spot, balance wise.

  • ThanksForDaily
    ThanksForDaily Member Posts: 1,307

    Keep listening to streamers and wait out Dead Hard when you can just insta quick M1. Survivors cannot even react to that.

    But keep listening to them and wait out in open field giving them the chance.

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  • Gamall
    Gamall Member Posts: 487
  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237

    I agree. Granted it isn't as bad as it used to be, but that doesn't mean it isn't still problematic. The fact that it's uncounterable at pallets means intelligent players are going to position themselves to use the perk where they know they're in close proximity to a pallet. You're going to try and use your perk where you know the killer can't do anything. If you aren't, then you're not using it that well. If you're playing on maps with high pallet density like the game or RPD with more than one dead hard, you're in for a bad time. It's easy to bait out when you're chasing someone into a dead zone but that's not happening that often. And all the while you have to make sure you don't get juked out or get your camera abused while you're attempting to force them to use it. Oops, I spun the wrong the way and they reached the pallet anyways. Bummer.

  • Gamall
    Gamall Member Posts: 487

    Using dh on pallets is literally the only use you can make of it.

    When are you going to use it? In a completely random dead zone?

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  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    The fact that it acts as a time sink in those situations is the annoying thing about it.

    The pallet play being super reliable as far as these things go is what makes it really strong.

    And the way it synergises so perfectly with cheating (because it has no delay before it goes off) is just a third problem.

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  • GannTM
    GannTM Member Posts: 10,894

    You can definitely play around new Dead Hard. Its older self was way more unbalanced.

  • IlliterateGenocide
    IlliterateGenocide Member Posts: 6,030

    compared to old dead hard? this deadhard takes much more skill.

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,463

    I basically disagree with the entire post. It absolutely has counters at pallets, and I get hits through DH at pallets at least half the time. You have to read the survivor. They're going to use DH 99.999999% of the time if they're looking back at you as they go through the pallet and they haven't used an exhaustion perk yet. It's a game sense thing you have to have as a killer. If they're looking back you, they're playing YOUR distance, not the pallet's distance relative to them. You can tell what their intent is by where their character model's head is facing. If they don't have DH, they're going to care much more about how quickly they can get the pallet down, so they'll be looking at that most of the time. Sure, sometimes their timing beats my timing...but then we're basically complaining about exhaustion perks in general, not DH.

    As far as countering killer powers, again, it's a matter of reading the opponent and adjusting your power usage. GF has an insta-down, so DH is literally a non-factor half the time. A good Nurse laughs at DH. The blink windows have plenty of time to wait on it, especially if you're accurate on blink 1. Demo can straight up hold his shred until they use it. I can go on.

  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237

    Well, one, that isn't true. There are multiple clever uses of deadhard where the killer is essentially forced to swing. One such case is when a generator is almost complete. Has anyone ever been about to interrupt a generator very nearly done, and a teammate body blocked with dead hard? It's a sick play don't get me wrong but are you going to do, spin around for 5 seconds waiting it out while that gen gets completed? The opportunity cost in not just simply swinging is too great.

    But also, why are people saying "only" or "just" pallets like it's some small thing? It's the most common resource available to you on the map. Old dead hard was bullshit 100% of the time but new dead hard is bullshit only 75% of the time! Lol, like come on.

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  • Wahara
    Wahara Member Posts: 237

    Did you make the debate team with that one

  • Xernoton
    Xernoton Member Posts: 5,900

    So 90% of the people who play killer are just bad? Wait it out every single time. No big deal. After all you know it's coming. Then, why exactly was Eruption problematic, if waiting out perk is no big deal? I seem to recall that more importantly than balancing this was unfun. It's not fun to wait. No one wants to wait for a perk to be out of the way so that they can play.

    The majority of survivors use DH again. Are you gonna say they don't have a clue what they're doing? In most cases you get screwed when the survivor uses DH at a pallet. That is not a skill issue but an issue with the perk itself. Think about how much time you have between the pallet drop and DH. Maybe 0.15 seconds (pretty generous). Now time the hit so you will hit them in this little window of time. For that you need to know exactly how far you are from the survivor and how fast your lunge is. Most people have no clue about the actual numbers and that's fine because you shouldn't need to know the exact numbers that are not even listed in the game.

    Next, everyone knows that you need to wait out DH. No matter, if the survivor looks behind them or not, as long as they're not exhausted you need to wait it out. Every. Single. Chase. That also means you have to watch the survivors perform a dance routine that'd probably win them Dancing with the Stars, shatter their ankles in an attempt to turn so fast the centripetal force saves them from tripping over their own toes, develop a deep understanding of their motives and family history before swinging and potentially still hitting the DH. Nice. How long do I have to wait? 5 seconds? 6? 7? Every chase on every survivor?

    DH is so prevelant that killers need to respect it even, if it isn't in the game. Just queue up as survivor and spin a few times. The killer will most likely wait it out because you could have it and they can't afford to go on a chase with a good survivor with 3 health states.

    A perk that prolongs chases by granting you a third health state on command will always be problematic. I've seen survivors stay injured to avoid insta downs with DH. If that doesn't tell you that this perk is ######### I don't what will.

  • RainehDaze
    RainehDaze Member Posts: 2,573

    Well, you can try and mindgame it in future chases by swinging immediately, and then third time wait and they'll probably panic and do it immediately. It can be worked around in open space.

    But then you run into the hackers. And the pallet loops. Or unsafe unhooks, those are a weird edge case (dodge into hook from stationary, sure).

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  • ACleverName4Me
    ACleverName4Me Member Posts: 450

    I hate dead hard with a burning passion. We still have the issue of every player having that perk even though they don't. It's like old DS. Dead hard needs to be reworked into a different exhaustion perk entirely if they want people to use another perk.

    Dead hard is unhealthy and BS

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