Bring back 5.4.0 DS as a tunneling deterrent
It is crystal clear that the floodgates of tunneling opened when DS left survivors loadouts. Just like it used to happen every match back when a match with no obsession in play meant no survivors had DS.
While DS never stopped tunneling, it punished and the mear fear of such punishment always kept the killers on their toes. In a match where only 1 survivor had DS but they couldn't tell or even when the survivor didn't have DS but jumped on a locker.
I find it odd that eventually BHVR decided to make it so an obsession was always present in the match specifically to avoid the excessive tunneling happening in matches with no obsession but suddenly nerfing DS into uselessness was good?
DS was on a sweat spot after the addition of inconspicuous action and it required some minor tweaks appointed by the community, not a complete nerf.
The "alternative" introduced to DS, Off The Record, also doesn't work because killers will hit you within BT protection anyway. Not only they get hit of OTR immediately but it also disables a possible Dead Hard through Deep Wounds state. After that the survivor is just an easy prey that can be immedaitely rehooked unless he manages to get to a loop or something.
I understand that killers could tunnel through DS or slug you but that's still better than what we have now and some killers always avoided tunneling knowing the survivor would have DS.
Comments
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The "disables at endgame" element of the 6.1.0 DS nerf was pretty fair, so I wouldn't say revert it entirely. Bring back the longer stun animation, and it'll be fine.
OTR is a lot better than people give it credit for if it's used properly, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with having two strong, viable anti-tunnel perks in the game. In fact, the more the better, really.
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I think DS is fair how it is right now. Its still a great perk. The only thing that annoys me a bit is that you cant combo it anymore with Head On because the stun duration is too low.
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Generally I don't go for the tit for tat thing, but if you're gonna unnerf one of the old meta perks I feel it's fair that killers get one back at well. I don't particularly care which one as I never really used them, but giving back one of the strongest survivor perks and the other side nothing rubs me the wrong way.
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You know what the number 1 tunneling deterrent in the game is? Not going down in 10 seconds and being the weak link.
People will whine about the color of the sky and ask it to be changed instead of just getting better at the game.
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I wonder why killers feel pressured to tunnel- Maybe we should address that BEFORE piling more BS basekit buffs onto survivors? Like, seriously, at this point? The killer buff we got awhile back feels completely overshadowed by the REPEATED survivor additions we've been getting. I play both sides equally, and sadly, my view is that survivors as a whole teach killers how to play. Lose 3 gens in 1 chase? I have bad news. That killer will tunnel. Not just that game, but the next too. And then the next. Survivors chase around hook? That killer will camp. The same can be said for survivors. We learn how to loop, and counter certain things based on how the killers we face play. The only difference is killers aren't given hard counters for free like survivors have been recently. Encourage a healthier, more beneficial play style for killer via rewarding them instead. Not punishing. This game, despite lower MMR belief, is NOT killer-sided. They've brought Solo-queue up recently, which is what they balanced around. They gave survivors basekit BT, and didn't do anything to prevent it from being abused. They're planning on making a weaker version of unbreakable basekit, as awful as that system is. We need to start thinking about health for both sides, AS both sides. I know tunneling sucks, but bigger changes are needed. Like, OVERHAUL level changes. Game flow and otherwise.
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I agree, having it stay active in an endgame scenario was just unfair, and the stun as it stands right now is just lame.
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Gee I wonder why bHVR dont want you to combo stun the Killer.
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I think the current stun duration is mainly a problem against M2 killers like Nurse and Blight who can instantly catch up to you and down you before you make any distance. I find it ok against your average M1 killer with normal mobility. One way to address this could be to make M2 killers lose their power tokens when stunned and pause their recharge for a short time.
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DS suggestion
Stun for 3 sec, 3sec 150% bonus speed and 3 sec without scratch marks (for hidding)
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Well, the thing is that basekit BT was made precisely because tunneling become a problem. So, the more the tunnel, the more basekit perks for survivors, making tunneling even stronger.
That's why old DS was great, it punish that playstyle without being to oppressive. So we need old DS back, two uses, 5 seconds stun and disable at endgame
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Reverting DS wouldn't stop tunneling from being the best strategy. If you really want to reduce tunneling, give killers a reward for spreading hooks. Spreading hooks does not help control gens like removing a survivor from the game does.
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DS should just go back to 5 seconds and also be disabled if you enter a locker
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Not true. 1 min not doing anything or eating DS is never a good option. So best strategy was to "tunnel" 2 guys instead of 1 (and swap between them). That's immediately more fair, because guy that is on a hook can try to hide while the other one is being chased. DS in practice was "guaranteed" to create longer chase then a minute - making it very suboptimal strategy. There was nothing else so impactful for high MMR (tunnel-wise) as DS nerf. Sure you can argue BBQ nerf did that too, but not in "sweat MMR"...
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Revert the stun time and DS will be a good perk again.
Nothing else about it needs to change.
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How is it great when you only get 2 seconds of free time? It does basically nothing and God forbid the killer have rancor too
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Not a fan of OTR personally. If the killer is tunnelling you hard enough that you don't get an opportunity to heal it usually means you're getting hit in that 10 second window anyways.
Plus, OTR doesn't work with DH
It also provides less distance than the 5 second DS stun. This is especially true against killers with STBFL or who have powers that let them not lose distance or gain distance quickly on hits. ie. blight, huntress, trickster, nurse.
f you down someone with old DS you had to wait 3 seconds for the hit CD (lower with stbfl) then spend 3 seconds picking them up and THEN you got stunned for 5 seconds, which was just the cherry on top of all the distance you were getting from it.
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because it can win you the game. 2 seconds can be enough to get you to a save loop. and if this happens, the kiler might just lose because of this. and having it longer would make it very consistent. And you have to realize that Killers are kinda forced to tunnel at the moment because its the best they can do to address genrush. So i think buffing DS is not the way to go about tunneling. weve had this in the past and it just made it so the killer will often slug 60sec and proxy camp around you. It got to the point that i saw people on twitch use stopwatch to wait out the 60 sec, thats how impacting it was. The best solution i think is to have fresh hooks give more blood points and have it slow down gens somehow.
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I have never seen anyone get any value out of those two seconds.
It's more often I would down them 10 seconds later.
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...in what world are you consistently getting value from DS in its current state, especially against killers like Nurse or blight?
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Yeah I have no clue what @VaporLion is talking about here. I think he's vastly overestimating how much time 2 seconds gives you
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im saying that it shouldnt get buffed because then it would be too consistent. in its current state, it is balanced because it is not consistent.
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In 2024,Survivers have 12 base kit parks.
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earlier it often happened that the survivors used ds and then ran up to the camera and start tbag, well if you don’t go tbag, and immediately start running away, then these 3 seconds will easily save your life
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Best way to address tunneling is make it so it isn't necessary. You do that by making it so that gens can't be completed faster than greased lightning. After that you implement more strict base kit anti-tunnel mechanics.
I always see people talking about punishing the symptom instead of treating the cause.
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Making it take longer to do gens isn't going to fix tunneling because people will tunnel regardless of what you do.
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Before the patch, it was more efficient to go for more than one survivor for a variety of reasons:
#1: Avoid the potential of Decisive Strike; killers actually respected the existence of DS whether a survivor maybe had it or not.
#2: The more pressure you spread amongst the team, the less efficient on gens they become.
I do think removing the activation of DS during end game is fair. The 3 second stun is not punishing enough and the 5 second stun was enough to make killers respect DS. Nowadays, its like the perk doesn't even exist so killers will easily tunnel at 5 gens.
If we want this game to survive and thrive, we need to be able to give newer players a good experience with the game. Spending maybe 5 minutes in a match and dying, over and over if you are new player is not fun. This game is not going to survive if we are ONLY focusing on existing players who have a lot of experience in the game. Survivors lost all of perks that were good deterrents that they had before, which were fun to use; like Iron Will, DS, old DH. But I'm only advocating for a 5 second stun for DS, which I think is fair. Even if survivors combo it with other perks, like OTR; and Dead Hard, that becomes a pretty strong anti-tunnel build, and the developers need to create a game flow that is fun for everyone.
With the new zoning killers we have like Knight and Skull Merchant, tunneling is just easier with that killer playstyle. I think a lot of survivor players would agree that the game was more fun before the patch. Killer may have been harder; but that's the role of a 1 v 4. When a majority of the player base is survivor, but you make that portion super unhappy with the game, they are just going to play something else. Same goes with killer.
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This was tried in patch 6.1. Your theory was proven to be absolutely wrong. The only way how to deter tunneling is to not making it most rewarding, easiest and consistent thing to do in the game with least risks (aka no risk considering current state of DS) associated with it. That's it.
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DS is currently mediocre, much worse than OTR, AND it still has a TINY skill check that's too hard to hit on laggy PCs/consoles. AND, if you miss the skill check, DS is dead for the rest of the match, you don't even get to try again after the next unhook. Unlike OTR, which activates both times. I'm still baffled by how the devs don't want to increase the skill check to be hit-able by everyone. It's as if they want to encourage tunneling...
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DS wasn’t even supposed to be 5 seconds for as long as it did. Only went to that duration cause old Enduring would shorten the time, they just never reverted back until way after Enduring was reworked.
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They killers feel pressured to tunnel because there's nothing stopping them from tunnelling anymore unlike pre-patch. DS? Nerfed, OTR? Hit them on hook and DH also disables too.
Survivors need more gens to do in general to make games last longer if popping gens is too quick. or something new entirely.
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As in increase the intensity of the anti-tunnel mechanics so much that the killer physically can't do it until EGC. A restriction like this is fine if and only if there actually is a respectable and reliable amount of time to conduct chases during the trial before gens hit 100%.
Tunneling, camping and hard slugging alike are events that ultimately happen because the generators can be done fast. Over time, players learn that if the killer does not create some kind of situation to jam up the gen progress, they will lose.
One good path forward is to take steps to insure that matches cannot end cartoonishly fast so there actually is time to "just be good." Overlay this with very strict anti-tunnel/camp/slug mechanics and further nerfs to gen-slow...Now the only thing for a killer to do is get good at earning hooks and conducting themselves in a more "healthy" manner.
I hope that's a better job at painting that picture
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As an assassin, I've never come across this perk since my playstyle is not the current rat meta. And the old days when DS was strong I liked more. DS did not interfere with me, but he just did punish toxic tunnelers because of which players leave the game.
I agree to return it, even perhaps it is better to build it into the base of survivors after rescuing from the hook.
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That's not what I said. I said nerf it so, that it's not the most optimal strategy to play the game. Right now the best strategy to win the game ASAP is to chase a little all survivors (or at least watch them a little), try to figure out weakest link and tunnel that one out ASAP - once he is hooked, proxy camp him and zone other survivors out of the hook and nearby gens. Once you do this, repeat with the remaining 3 survivors. After this, if there are 2+ gens left, you just won. Otherwise try to catch any remaining survivor in a game.
Notice I never mentioned specific killer, specific situation, specific map, specific killer/survivor build, or any other conditions. This is killer's most optimal strategy no matter what (and no matter how many gens are remaining). It's boring, so you will not see it EVERY game. But you will see it much more often then not in higher elo at least.
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My thoughts exactly and tunnelling is basically most games now ds isn’t a threat it’s good to have deterrents to stuff like tunnelling
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Even just making it 3 seconds from the moment the survivor actually gets control of their character would be nice, which would put the total stun time at 4-point-something seconds if I remember right. Losing ~1 second to just getting off the killer's shoulder with no ability to run away is huge, and it's a bigger fraction of the total stun time when it's 3 seconds vs when it was 5 seconds.
But yeah, DS got hit with one of the kinda bizarre double changes similar to Ruin, Calm Spirit and some others. Disable at endgame? Brilliant change and a much discussed and requested one. Reduction in stun time? Bizarre change that to me at least just screamed "Hey, you're supposed to use OTR instead now"
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They could however make DS have a longer duration. The longer duration wouldnt be broken because the survivor cant do anything useful for the team, however it will prevent that the killer can slug you after down for a bit, hit another survivor and come back to you while DS runs out during that time. So i think that would be fair it was like 90 seconds.
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They should literally just use old DS but keep the deactivation on EGC.
That's literally all they needed to do.
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Specifically ruin! Mainly the regression speed aspect as the other would help incentivize NOT tunneling.
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