An Onyro Rework
Almost everyone except for the diehard Onyro mains would admit right now that her Condemmed is near completely useless. At most, one or two survivors will bother to waste some time doing tapes. Compared to Freddys Dream World, Pig Boxes, or Doctors Snap Out, her passive ability doesn't buy her any time.
So my idea is pretty simple. Hitting a survivor with a basic attack gives the survivor one stack of condemned. 7 stacks they die like normal. Now you might think "Whaaaat! 7 hits and you just kill a survivor? That's crazy" but if you chase a survivor from injured to dying 3 times, and hook them after, thats only 6 hits total. So basically survivors won't be able to run around taking hits before healing up super quick, or they will be at risk of instant death.
Obviously, there could be some problems with this. Should endurance hits apply a stack? This would be a pretty good counter to DH, but could be pretty easy to abuse with basekit BT for tunneling. Should other sources of Condemmed like Teleporting or Tapes be removed or toned down?
What do the rest of you think.
Comments
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I think instead of making condemned more common, it should be more impactful if they let it increase. I mentioned in another post some ideas I had to make condemned have more impact before the mori. I'll paste what I said here.
At 2 stacks survivors near a tv when you teleport are hindered by 20% for 5 seconds (to give you an easier time catching up)
At 4 stacks basic attacks injuring survivors gives them deep wounds(so they are vulnerable even with dead hard, and it forces them to take time to mend letting you do other things if you don't want to chase them)
At 6 stacks whenever you manifest at all near them you get to apply the last condemned stack (that way even being at 6 is a risk enough that they will be forced to deal with the tapes).
These effects, along with swapping the cooldowns between survivors and sadako turning off the t.v., would make her power more impactful, and provide some innate slowdown if you are teleporting well. The only other thing I could think of that would help is maybe making the addons that affect survivors near t.v.s to have the same range as condemned. Right now they are too small so even if they are working on a gen next to the t.v. they won't be affected.
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Something that felt like it should have been part of onryo's basekit is that once you become fully Condemned, you cannot undo it along with suffering from perma exposed.
Would make getting condemned have a much bigger consequence for Survivors that allows themselves to become it.
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I mean not really "diehard onryo mains" but ones that have went against of as condemn build sadako, as it does make her unbelievably strong if you're not expecting it while on a 2 story map like the meat plant or RPD
But yeah basekit wise, her condemn does basically nothing. It's only a threat when paired with iri tape and ring drawing
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Condemn is already impactful. it allows you instantly mori a survivor. that is like most powerful debuff in the entire game. it is building up condemn that is issue.
Obviously, there could be some problems with this. Should endurance hits apply a stack? This would be a pretty good counter to DH, but could be pretty easy to abuse with basekit BT for tunneling. Should other sources of Condemmed like Teleporting or Tapes be removed or toned down?
When Oni hits a survivor with endurance, he does not get 40% of his power gauge. The condemn stacks can work like Oni's power meter build-up. it applies condemn when you lose a health-state. TP & Ring drawing are passive forms of gaining condemn. its little bit like freddy dreamworld that ticks you in dream after 60 seconds. Technically passive help you get more condemn stacks(just like passive helps put people in dream world) but you still have to hit people as freddy to keep people in dream world just like Sadako has to hit people to actively condemn survivors. TV TP & Ring drawing are more active forms of build-up then just a 60 second timer but the nature of these two forms of condemn is suppose to be supplementary. right now they are primary forms of condemn which is why it is hard to condemn survivors. too much survivor control, not enough emphasize on killer player.
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That would be powerful, but then again anyone who says otherwise remember we have nurse who can do that already
Just make the manifestation and demanifestation take a few seconds longer and it's fine
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Condemn is only impactful at max stacks, which as you said is hard to get. Making it easier to get condemned might not solve the problem, since as long as they don't specifically get to max condemned they are basically playing against a crappier wraith with a more limited freddy teleport. The mori is only a problem if you let it get to max stacks and then let yourself get caught (twice if you're healthy). You would get people doing the tapes JUST BEFORE max stacks, but for the most part they would remain unaffected meaning they would ignore it for gen rushing while you have almost nothing to show for it (which is how it is now). That's the best case scenario, worst case it works too well and games last way less time because survivors can't keep up with the fast condemned stacks leading to deaths with no need for a single hook. That's not fun to go against and is a fast track to her getting nerfed into the ground.
My suggestion makes it to where they have to pay much more attention to condemned, while not risking games becoming short because of an easy instant mori. It makes survivors have to consider which is more worthwhile: gen progress, or removing the debuffs from condemned.
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unfortunately this would just lead to a wraith scenario where you have to manifest to get them hurt/down and demanifest to avoid obstacles/catch up. They could put you in a loop of manifesting and demanifesting, trying to catch up when they place an obstacle and then having to chase them again because you took too long to manifest allowing them to reach another safe spot. it would take time that could have been saved just using brutal strength and destroying the pallet. Nurse is strong because when she bypasses pallets and windows she can attack immediately, wraith and sadako have to wait to be able to attack again letting survivors react.
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Condemn is only impactful at max stacks, which as you said is hard to get. Making it easier to get condemned might not solve the problem, since as long as they don't specifically get to max condemned they are basically playing against a crappier wraith with a more limited freddy teleport. The mori is only a problem if you let it get to max stacks and then let yourself get caught (twice if you're healthy). You would get people doing the tapes JUST BEFORE max stacks, but for the most part they would remain unaffected meaning they would ignore it for gen rushing while you have almost nothing to show for it (which is how it is now).
This is whole description can be a summary of why killer tunnel survivors when hooking them. Hook-states have no meaning until the survivor gains 3 hook-states stacks. Survivors only get punished for getting hooked when their hook marker reaches 3 which results in them getting mori when successfully placed on a hook. this is same logic your using for condemn stacks. condemn is not punishing mechanic because it is only meant to punish you when you get 7 stacks similar to how hook-state work.
That's the best case scenario, worst case it works too well and games last way less time because survivors can't keep up with the fast condemned stacks leading to deaths with no need for a single hook. That's not fun to go against and is a fast track to her getting nerfed into the ground.
Cheating hook-states is entire point of sadako's ability. Isn't popular perception that sadako is one of worst killers in the game? I would almost argue that sadako is virtually already nerfed to the ground seeing as her chase, stealth, mobility and condemn mechanic are completely dysfunctional at base-kit. The killer is only using ring drawing to slightly make condemn less terrible and iri-tape to make her mobility slightly less terrible(which indirectly improves condemn as teleport & building condemn are connected). I am sorry if these two add-on buff her base-kit too much that it is unfun for you. Perhaps they need deletion so you can escape 100% of the time.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
You are very much incorrect about hooks being useless. let's ignore all the perks that give you bonuses when you hook someone. the simple fact they can't do anything but wait for another survivor to get them off hook, functionally taking up the time of two survivors while you can go off to do your own thing, is very useful as long as you can capitalize on it. the difference between hooks and condemn is not only do you have to condemn far more times than it takes to hook someone, but you also don't slow them down in any meaningful way apart from chasing them off a generator. Much less valuable than just hooking someone. besides, I never said that sadako wasn't in a bad place, only that her ending matches too quickly (which is possible if you can just mori survivors after 7 hits, and they don't decide to use a tape at the 6th or 7th hit) would get most of the changes reverted putting her back to square one. Also, I never objected to the addons, you are putting words in my mouth. I absolutely agree that those addons are necessary for sadako right now. I would argue that the ring drawing SHOULD be basekit. However, as you said, it is a supplement that doesn't solve the main issue. My ideas make every two condemned actually do something, rather than be a poor man's hook state counter (honestly think about it, which is easier? hooking surivors 3 times or teleporting to exactly where they are up to a max of 7 times to kill ONE SURVIVOR).
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you say a mori is the most powerful debuff in the game in your previous post, and that cheating hookstates is the point of condmned. However, it takes just as long if not longer to condemn someone than another killer could just hook them. A power shouldn't be an instant win button, but it also shouldn't be inferior to just using base game mechanics. Trying to give condemned on every hit goes too far in the other direction, while just making it where condemned actually does something in the mean time like hooks can with perks is far more reasonable and easier to balance.
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i think hooking provide little to no slowdown in 4vs1 because chasing 1 survivor, 1 person for unhook and 1 person on the hook occupies only 3 survivors therefore 1 survivor can still be doing generators. This is assuming killer is perfectly successful at every single chase. A single misstep will result in a fast loss when 1 or 2 generator are remaining. One or two generator is inevitable for the killer because of how early game plays out with killer in regards to large gen spread and all the strong pallets that exist at the start of the match. The killer only gets good map pressure through hooking in my opinion in 3vs1's because no one can be on generators as long as killer is successful in winning the chase. you have to outplay the killer in the chase to physically progress generators as opposed to the 4vs1 where survivors can continuously can be poor at looping but still progress the objective at relative pace. this largely summarizes why killers tunnel. In sadako's case, slugging replaces hooking because hooking a survivor makes you lose condemn stacks since unhooking a survivor does not grant condemn stacks but healing someone off the floor does.
that cheating hookstates is the point of condmned. However, it takes just as long if not longer to condemn someone than another killer could just hook them.
of course it takes longer because the only two method to increase condemn stacks is to a) heal another survivor(when ringing draw is used) and b) be next to a television within 16 meters when a teleport is used. both of these actions are controlled by survivor. In order for TV to grant condemn, the survivor has to actively ignore active televisions when repairing generators. survivor will ignore televisions when their condemn status is low but if their condemn status is high, they will take a tape out of the TV in effort to remove condemn stacks which turns off the tv. you cannot teleport to a tv and it is significantly harder to gain condemn stacks on moving survivors that are not on generator that actively avoid being near TV's. The other way to gain condemn stacks is healing another survivor however the ring drawing add-on is very easy counter with self-healing actions. You get another survivor to heal you to 99% then just use med-kit to 99 the complete heal. Even a brown med-kit has 16 charges... so that is 16 chances to avoid condemn by 99% healing. The other very common meta perk that unlocks self-healing action is circle of healing and that works infinitely so the add-on is very easy to manipulate for survivor. The only way for you to force condemn stacks with ring drawing is slugging but that process is very slow and sadako is basic m1 killer who is very easy to loop. Getting m1 downs is not exactly easy when you have near non-existent chasing power. The condemn mechanic is badly balanced towards the survivor's favor. Survivors is controlling the effectiveness of the killer power. A killer whose power is entirely controlled by survivor can never be strong. The killer is lacking input in their play to influence the effectiveness of the ability.
A power shouldn't be an instant win button, but it also shouldn't be inferior to just using base game mechanics.
I disagree. I think powers are suppose to be instant win buttons when survivor is unsuccessful at countering the ability and the killer is using the power at peak performance simultaneously. In Onyro case, her power is the mori and mori either work or do not work at all. Onyro power is an all or nothing ability.
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Comparing her condemned to other slowdown powers is disingenuous asf. Dream world can be safely ignored, pig boxes are limited in quantity and can be pretty reliably removed, and snap out doesn't lead to a mori.
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To be fair, two out of the three killers whose powers you mentioned are considered not good (I don't know about doctor or how good they are considered). I think this is more of a case that Sadako isn't the only one suffering from behavior giving non-chase killers little to no help over the years. Freddy's power gives you less stopping power than Trapper's beartraps and you can't even use them as consistently, Pig has become the butt of DBD's most notorious joke because of how overnerfed she is, and sadako has a teleport..... and not much else. Seriously, her stealth powers are inconsistent at best and the mori takes forever to happen that you have to use an iridescent addon just to get the dang thing to be remotely a threat to good survivors. The main take away from this is even if her slowdown isn't particularly standout bad compared to other slowdowns, that's only because most slowdowns in the game are awful in their own right.
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(TLDR at the bottom)
I see your points, and they are good ones (though I do disagree about the hooking thing, even if there is still a survivor on a gen- it's less survivors than there would be if they didn't have to worry about their ally dying without help). However, I am not saying sadako isn't a dumpster fire right now. Nor am I saying what I suggested is a complete solution to sadako's problems. I just think making condemned be applied on a hit is too much. If it were something like a hit specifically after manifesting (or hell just manifesting next to a survivor within a close distance) I'd be much more agreeable. But survivors would have little counter to a condemned stack every single hit, especially when you consider to get rid of condemned you have to grab a tape which increases your condemned progression and then get to another t.v. while your condemned passively goes up (granted it's pitifully slow so that's not really as big of a deal as the instant condemned a person gets when grabbing a tape). Imagine teleporting and then hitting a single survivor. Sounds fine right? Except if there's even a single survivor nearby then you've just applied 3 total condemned to two survivors. Even if they loop you for long enough for the other survivor to get rid of their condemned (which they likely wouldn't because that time removing a single condemned would be better spent doing gens even with how much more common said condemns would be) that's still 2 condemned from a single teleport. Worst case scenario if you dedicate after every teleport it will take you at maximum 4 teleports to make it a 3v1. Which even for sadako are odds the survivors will struggle to come back from if they have less than 2 gens done. That's assuming you don't run into anyone and hit them which would increase the condemned you have placed even more reducing the amounts of teleports you would need to kill that specific survivor down to three if they haven't received any condemned yet.
All of this would make sadako not just a snowball killer, but one who you couldn't stop from getting the ball rolling. The moment you found your first survivor through teleport and hit them, that survivor is basically screwed if you try to tunnel them out (which condemned lowkey incentivizes as it is) because you can prevent them from removing condemned with constant chases and teleports if you play your cards right. Before if you tried this, it would cost you the game because the other survivors would be doing gens while you slowly got condemned one at a time. Now? They would be lucky to get 2 done before the survivor gets mori'd because you could consistently get a minimum of 2 condemned per teleport assuming you don't hit them more than once and they are alone (and survivors WILL get hit if you focus on them after teleporting, it's just a thing that has to happen eventually in an even remotely balanced dbd match).
condemning on hit would turn sadako into a monster if it worked the way the person describes it. it would bring the minimum amount of teleports needed to kill a survivor that you target and tunnel from 7, down to 4. This is assuming you don't get multiple survivors with a condemned teleport or that you manage to hit survivors more than once after teleporting. The ring addon makes this worse because even if they can 99% healing, not every survivor will do that -and there are counters to self healing that you could take advantage of. The speed at which you could kill survivors would far surpass their ability to do gens. Especially since you could just teleport right to a gen through a t.v. to scare them off. and you would easily scare them off because If they don't leave, they've got a guarantied 2 condemned on them now and they are at risk of the new-sadako tunnel. You would have so much pressure so quickly, it wouldn't be slowdown anymore- it would just be a waiting game to kill a survivor. This is all without considering that condemning gets easier the more gens get done since there's less guessing involved in where survivors are. Less gens=more likely to hit multiple survivors with a teleport condemned.
There's a difference between an instant win because you outplay them, and an instant win because they CAN'T outplay your power.
TLDR: The amount of time it would take to fully condemn and mori a survivor would be reduced too much if you applied condemned on hit because of both how consistent it would be and how much faster the condemned would add up from each teleport. This would lead to a 3v1 quickly which is much harder for survivors to come back from, especially if you already have some condemned applied to the others (which is likely). Would this make sadako better? yes. Would the Devs ever let it get past a ptb? Doubtful.
I want sadako to be good, I really do. But making every single hit apply condemned is too much even before considering the ring addon. as you said- her mori is an all or nothing. But what you suggest means that the 'all' aspect will be the most likely scenario far too often. Having condemned slowly apply more debuffs keeps the power from being unstoppable. incentivizing survivors to remove condemned consistently without applying it so often that they have no chance of removing it fast enough to survive ( therefore providing slowdown like it's supposes to if they remove it, and making them more vulnerable/ easier to deal with if they don't).
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All of this would make sadako not just a snowball killer, but one who you couldn't stop from getting the ball rolling. The moment you found your first survivor through teleport and hit them, that survivor is basically screwed if you try to tunnel them out (which condemned lowkey incentivizes as it is) because you can prevent them from removing condemned with constant chases and teleports if you play your cards right.
i have to say. I was laughing hysterical when reading this entire post. Your post is complaining that Sadako is able to tunnel. Here is some a news flash. Most of the other killers are able to tunnel and secure kills with varying degrees of success. If all other killers are allowed to tunnel, why is Sadako suddenly special treatment?
The speed at which you could kill survivors would far surpass their ability to do gens. Especially since you could just teleport right to a gen through a t.v. to scare them off. and you would easily scare them off because If they don't leave, they've got a guarantied 2 condemned on them now and they are at risk of the new-sadako tunnel.
So one of build-in mechanics in sadako's kit is that her TV emit directional audio cues when the sadako emerges from a television. This audio cues is global if VCR add-on is used. This is another one of those extremely bad designed mechanics that I do not want go into but my point is that if survivor is playing well vs sadako, Sadako should never get a hit from television teleportation with current balance. You can shift-W from TVs. The only way you can get hit by this is if the survivor is deadzone which itself is mistake made by the survivor. In my opinion, TV should not have any directional audio cue because this sadako is suppose to be stealth killer but whatever.
You would have so much pressure so quickly, it wouldn't be slowdown anymore- it would just be a waiting game to kill a survivor.
Right. that is how every killer is. It is how it is suppose to be. your not suppose to be able to survive the killer endlessly. your suppose survive against the killer long enough to complete all 5 generators. In sadako's case, your trying to survive the 7 days similar to lore.
But what you suggest means that the 'all' aspect will be the most likely scenario far too often. Having condemned slowly apply more debuffs keeps the power from being unstoppable. incentivizing survivors to remove condemned consistently without applying it so often that they have no chance of removing it fast enough to survive ( therefore providing slowdown like it's supposes to if they remove it, and making them more vulnerable/ easier to deal with if they don't).
This is just my opinion but I think that Condemn is already very rewarding mechanic for the killer that does not need potency buffs. I think your changes towards condemn mechanic are little bit like developer update killer buffs. They're buffing that do nothing and help nothing. Placebo changes. When I suggest changes, I am thinking of changes that will put a killer into a strong powerful position. Not 0.2 pallet breaking and other meaningless changes like GF, Clown changes etc. The change in my opinion would soft-fix sadako. I still think her stealth in chase, her directional lullaby, Long cooldown on TV, directional TVs make her a weak killer however I think she would be a lot stronger at base-kit and less add-on reliant(Add-on would still help her though). They would need look into those other elements in her kit if they were looking to improve to A-tier-S tier level. Just a simple change of adding 1 condemn stack on injure/down would make the condemn mechanic a lot more threatening. Like I said, I do not see them buffing her but I am fine with suggesting changes to improve her.
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If making sadako do condemned on hit wouldn't stop her from being weak, then why not just fix the stuff that makes her weak in the first place rather than make her ability to mori survivors easier?
Also, My problem isn't that sadako CAN tunnel. It's that her kit is DESIGNED around tunneling. doing one or two condemned does nothing to a survivor. You have to do it over and over to get anything out of it, focusing on only one survivor with no regard for the rest of the game. I like having the choice of whether or not to tunnel, not being hemmed in because a killer is so bad they have to turn a 4v1 into a 3v1 to actually stand a chance.
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that is kinda the game. 1-2 hooks does nothing, 3 hooks gets kills. same thing with condemn. I think sadako get more incentives to chase to injure and spread pressure with ring drawing compare to most other killers though.
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I love this!
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I agree ☝️ she’s needs some love 💕
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As a humble Onyro Main, respectfully she needs some love! 💕🙏🏼
Doesn’t have to be anything crazy but she needs help. Chases take way too long and condemn needs to be more threatening imo 📺
tvs need to be more high risk high reward. Forcing survivors to actually interact with the tvs instead of completely ignored.
Just my thoughts :)
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I feel if it was passive buildup from the start of the game (like very slow, 120 seconds for 1 stack kind of slow), but the time required decreases significantly (45 seconds to gain a stack) when within range of an active TV playing the Cursed tape
Then mabye have a debuff for holding onto a tape too long as well or if at certain thresholds of stacks (like 4, 5 and 6)
Then buff the remote control addon to actually be Iridescent worthy: Survivor auras are revealed for 3 seconds whenever they gain a Condemn stack
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