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Balance Team MMR

Is there a balance team at BHvR?

They should release their MMR.

LoL has a balance team consisting of mostly highly ranked players (diamond/masters so top 2%). This means that the people who balance the game are very passionate and knowledgeable about it.

What is the average rating of the balance team at BHvR? Do they select for these things?

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Comments

  • Nirgendwohin
    Nirgendwohin Member Posts: 1,251

    They take 4 survivors, two well above the cap and two below, so that averages out to about the killer's mmr, at least that's how it feels.

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 5,136
    edited February 2023

    MMR isnt meaningless for anyone who isnt a sweating achiever in this game.

    For everyone else its actually helpful to finding good matches, for you probably its bad cause sometimes there are not enough equally skilled people on, it seems without the MMR Cap, you would wait for up the half an hour for a game. Do you want this?

    But I agree, bHVR should raise the cap again. Im tired of playing vs. sweatlords who has to be matches with me cause nobody else wants to or can.

  • Beatricks
    Beatricks Member Posts: 857

    IIRC there is one person in charge of the MMR math, so it might not be a team per se. Anyways, MMR is utterly worthless for anything, since it doesn't do what people claim it does (separate beginners with 10 hour in the game from the 10k hour monsters that never miss a blink or a rush). People need to treat SBMM like a functional thing and just accept it as placebo.

  • AmpersandUnderscore
    AmpersandUnderscore Member Posts: 1,769

    Their MMR is max, just like everyone else on this forum.

    They could come out, right now, and say their MMR is 7200. Cool. What's yours?

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    Yeah seen this dead hard thing floating around on these forums and i'm going to clarify that this is false

    With dead hard for distance it never was the distance you couldn't be hit that mattered but the burst of speed

    If you were heading to a window and knew the killer would hit you as you vault with old dead hard you could gain distance and clear the window no problem every time

    With endurance dead hard you could never clear that window, as long as the killer hit you while you vaulted or waited out the dead hard you are going down. Regardless of the invinvibility distance being the same

    Now 1 second was to generous and they rightfully changed that but in a lot of cases the for distance part wasen't nearly as much of a problem

    The community is filled with people with the dunning kruger effect where they think they are experts and know so much about the game while they really don't

    Now i'm not going to say that the devs are perfect and they do drop the ball often (ruin change for one) but in a lot of cases it really isn't that bad and most of their changes have solid reasoning

    People often say that the devs are clueless about the game but the sad truth is that it's the community that is clueless

    I have not seen any other game community that spreads so many falsehoods about the game they are playing

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397

    I don't understand the scenario you described and what the false thing about DH is.

    It seems like in your scenario the problematic aspect is distance and speed has little to no effect on this problem.

    Imagine the same scenario you described. Except instead of getting a burst of speed you would be invulnerable for the total distance traveled with the speed boost. This is still problematic right? The killer can't do anything so it's the same situation.

  • Pulsar
    Pulsar Member Posts: 20,781

    I would say it's almost meaningless.

    Obviously, if you're pushing 3K MMR or are under 500 MMR, that means something. However, for everyone in-between, I don't think it matters much. If I sit at 2300, I could be farming MMR off of people at 1300, you know? At a certain point, there's a preponderance of evidence saying that it DOES mean something but until that point, I'd put very little stock in it.

  • HugTheHag
    HugTheHag Member Posts: 3,140

    I don't really care for the balance team's mmr. If anything, I wish for it to be varied on different levels.

    If the game was balanced only at top level, it would be even more unbearable for casual players and beginners, which are the two demographics that DbD is struggling to retain, precisely because it's so discouraging starting out / playing too unfrequently to improve (which makes it a vicious cycle as people then aren't motivated to play when they know they aren't going to have a good experience).

    LoL may work as they think is best, but according to many of my friends who are or were regular players (one being a private coach), the game's been so overthrown by the ambition of making it a competitive professional game that it's barely playable as a casual or outside of meta, both because of balance and backlash from other players (an issue which stems, like most things, from balance).

    DbD being balanced completely around top 2% players would probably be the worse option commercially as much manier players would drop / not consider trying the game at all.

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397

    I see what your saying.

    I would assume, and this is a very bold assumption given BHvRs track record, that the MMR system accounts for large discrepancies between teams and adjusts accordingly. So based on this assumption I would think that MMR is a fairly good proxy for individual skill and thus understanding of the game.

    I just want to know the direction this game is headed. The meta shakeup was good, I was excited, I loved that they were finally making substantial changes. I thought these would be fairly consistent, bring the game to a better state, and introduce new ways to play the game.

    Today I see that's not the case. There aren't consistent meta changes (at least things substantial that isn't just a perk here and there), some of the changes are questionable, and it appears that based on the process of these changes that BHvR doesn't understand what's going on. So who's making these changes or directing them and what can I expect? Knowing their MMR and thus understanding of the game will help me decide if I want to get back into this game seriously or just play for a few weeks every couple of months or so.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    The thing about chases is that total distance traveled doesn't matter that much

    What matters is the distance between you and the killer.

    Old dead hard increased that distance cause for a short time you were faster then the killer. So you could safely vault the window 100% of the time before the killer could reach you

    New dead hard doesn't increase the distance between you and the killer. It may last longer but the killer will be right on your tail.

    And seeing how you can't activate dead hard while vaulting all the killer would have to so was wait untill you vault or untill you are done dead harding

    The only way out of that situation would be to get lucky and time your dead hard well the killer would pretty much always down you.

    If there was no pallet near that window the endurance could last for 5 seconds and it still wouldn't matter

    Old dead hard increased the distance between you and the killer, new one doesn't. So as far as windows are concerned you could never use the new one for distance

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397
    edited February 2023

    I agree that distance is the problem. But in both situations you described it's distance to a point. If there is no pallet does the speed increase matter? You can't go anywhere and the killer will eventually catch you.

    Endurance gives the same effect as the speed boost. The survivor gains distance to a point. They can make the pallet.

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,356
    edited February 2023

    There's never really been an indication that BHVR focuses on the competitive/high level aspects of the game. In many cases they seem to have a blind spot for it more than anything else. Matchmaking alone is evidence of this. Yes, on occasion they mention high MMR, but they release multiple perks every year that are broken in the hands of good players on either side.

    That being said, I think it's fine if the devs don't grind DbD for thousands of hours in their spare time. I certainly don't come home and do my day job for fun after work until I go to bed. But I think they need to be more receptive to input from high level players and reach out to them before they sink full content cycles into DOA content.

    The mid-chapter UB/mori experiment should be happening regularly. You don't need to dedicate a mid-chapter PTB to that. Actually use high MMR Fog Whisperers to play on test builds and provide feedback. You could have saved yourself a whole lot of headache with Background Player months ago, for example.

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 13,590
    edited March 2023

    Based on how bad the balance is and the changes for balance we get you already know what the results of that question would look like unfortunately.

    The game is currently balanced around a solo queue group of survivors with about 50 hours in the game each. Hence most the balance issues and confusing changes we see.

  • DBDVulture
    DBDVulture Member Posts: 2,437

    The MMR for DBD is pointless. Why?

    There is a max MMR at ~1600. Essentially anything over that only reads as 1600. This is stupid because there is a big difference between 1600 and 2000 Elo with Chess. DBD is like nah.


    They don't do proper match making because it would : feel bad as you wait for long wait times for accurate matches.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    It matters if there is a window there, which are way stronger then pallets cause they don't get used up

    In the situations i descibed one is a 100% escape and the other a 100% down and vaulting a window isn't exactly an uncommon occurance

    With pallets it's not really the same either, it is possible to hit between the endurance ending and them throwing the pallet but it's a tight window, there is also the point that you need to use it at the exact right time. Old dead hard you could pretty much use whenever you had a straight line. With the endurance one using it too early or too late means you could very well get hit

    The distance you were invincible might be the same but the invincibility never was the problem with old dead hard. They could have completely removed that and it still would have been broken.

    The problem was that it created distance between you and the killer on demand and new dead hard just doesn't do that

    Not saying new dead hard is fine but it doesn't compare even slightly to the old one, even if it was a full second endurance

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397
    edited March 2023

    I think I see what you're saying now.

    Under the old DH the distance gained by the survivor is roughly 3 extra seconds of travel time for the killer. This translates to 12m of total distance gained by the survivor assuming we are at a max range lunge.

    The new DH provides only provides 2m. However, because of the endurance effect if the killer triggers it the result is significantly worse for them. They will move 6.6m/s for 1.8s for a total of 11.88m.

    Assuming ranges of 6m from killer to survivor and 6m from survivor to pallet.

    Before the best option for the killer was to take the lunge. There was no endurance so even if they missed they would at least make distance to the pallet or vault before the survivor could trigger the action. Now the best option is to not swing, if the killer triggers DH its basically a guaranteed transition to another tile unless there's a dead zone.

    In fact, because of the Endurance effect there is now a safety buffer zone in place. A good survivor will use DH when they see the killer trigger the lunge animation and won't fall for a flick. So at 6m, a Killer's lunge would be easily detected and countered as there is around a 1 second window for the hit to connect. Plenty of time for a survivor to react and dodge. To have an ample chance at actually hitting the survivor, the killer would need to be within 4m. This cuts the reaction time to about .66 seconds which is still alot. but at least they're more likely to fall for a flick.

    This still takes around 3 seconds to catch up. So really, it's just the same situation as before, right? What am I missing? The total distance moved by the survivor in both scenarios is the same I think.

    I agree that the previous distance was created on demand by the old Dead Hard. But here, it just exists always. Getting the Endurance proc is terrible EDIT: for the killer.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    I think the misunderstanding we are having is that i am talking about windows and you about pallets

    With pallets you are correct, if you could hit them at the last second they can dead hard and be mostly safe. You can't hit the dead hard and when they reach the pallet you get stunned and don't get the hit

    With windows it's different. You don't get stunned. You can hit them while they are vaulting. They can't have dead hard endurance during the vault. Unlike pallets there is nothing stopping you from hitting them.

    With old dead hard the distance they gained meant they were out of your reach so you couldn't hit them while they vaulted

    Do want to remind that i'm not arguing dead hard is fine now. Just that saying that the devs accomplished nothing by changing DH from dash to endurance isn't really correct

  • icedrake402
    icedrake402 Member Posts: 145

    Actually...yes. I'd be very happy to have longer waits in exchange for a better game. Especially for killer, since if they get an MMR glitch of a game, they're trapped in there for the whole game, even when it's very obvious they have no chance of winning.

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 5,136

    Then go make a new Feedback post about it, a new big fresh one, Arguing for your point.

    its the only way to make bHVR reconsider their previous changes.

  • Phasmamain
    Phasmamain Member Posts: 11,531

    MMR is basically non existent so this is irrelevant

    Anyway most devs are too busy working to consistently play the game since game development is a full time job and not an easy one

  • Nazzzak
    Nazzzak Member Posts: 5,599
    edited March 2023

    Their SBMM made me laugh today. I'm in low MMR hell atm as I just started survivor from scratch on the PS5. I got matched with 3 very new players in one game, which is fine and expected. They were missing skill checks new. The Huntress we got matched against though was hitting people from across the map lol then the very next game, I got matched with 3 experienced survivors who ran circles around the obvious baby killer. I don't even know anymore lmao

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397

    yeah I noticed that whatever side doesn't have the BP bonus has some pretty wild variation in games. as killer you can get baby survivors and 4 man bully squads.

    as survivor you can get afk killers and sweaty nurses.

  • Basement_Bubba420
    Basement_Bubba420 Member Posts: 397

    What's wrong with the balance in League?

    I haven't played in years TBH, but I just took a look at the win rates (this is data collected by Riot that is provided through an API, BHvR take notes!!!!) and 130/162 champions have a 50 +/- 2% win rate. That's 80% of champions!

    Since the stats were last released, 16/29 Killers have a kill rate of 60 +/- 2%. That's 55%.

    In DbD a players kill rate is related to how sweaty they want to play. If they want to tunnel the first person they see, they're more likely to get a 4k. BHvR doesn't release the stats on hooks per kill so we don't know the extent of tunneling and camping going on. Based on the games I play as survivor, probably around 33% of them result in tunneling or camping.

  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 9,212

    Here's an example why MMR shouldn't be viewable.

  • JPLongstreet
    JPLongstreet Member Posts: 5,856

    That second match is most likely three survs who had been dodged a couple of times. When that happens the "acceptable" MMR gap widens badly or is outright ignored, in favor of faster queue times.

  • HugTheHag
    HugTheHag Member Posts: 3,140
    edited March 2023

    It's not as much the balance that's wrong but that the game is not enjoyable.

    Players are so chained up to the meta that playing a champion you like but that's not meta will get your game dodged or your teammates swearing at you in the chat and throwing because they don't expect you to play your role well.

    It's perfectly primed for competitive/professional play, with the realm of possible plays clearly defined, good system of bans and such, but it's extremely sweaty as casual and the devs care more about their tournaments being flawless than their players enjoying the game.

    Virtually no one I know who currently plays really enjoys the game, and that's at various levels of experience. (I personally don't play, never have and never will, but close friends and some family do and their experiences lign up)

    They are extremely hyped about esports tournaments and follow them religiously, but actually playing the game ? It's too frustrating and not worth it. Some have quit, some play periodically, but few play regularly anymore.

  • Sonzaishinai
    Sonzaishinai Member Posts: 7,976

    Am i the only one that thinks that LoL really shouldn't be set as the standerd?

    They might have had the "insight" to balance for top play but everything bellow that was miserable from what i remember it.

    They had nerf Irelia just as DbD has nerf pig

    I haven't played in years so i don't know how it is now but from what i remember i prefer DbD's balancing.

  • supersonic853
    supersonic853 Member Posts: 5,541

    Id love to know my mmr on spirit because i did have a streak of like 35 3-4ks as i got better with her. Now i have started getting those teams that know the ins and outs and are very good at what they do, so I've had to change up as well. Im guessing me and who i am facing are probably very evenly matched now while before i was lower than what i should have been. So i have just been trying to get better than i currently am. Self reflection is a nice way to get better. Just not everyone sees it that way especially in a asymmetrical game with so much stuff that can influence a genuinely fair matchup (coal tower vs coldwind, iri addons and certain perks, ect). It would just be cool to see how far up i am though. I know im probably nowhere near the cap but id think from how my matches play currently i'm probably above average.

  • Sava18
    Sava18 Member Posts: 2,439

    The balance team balances for all elos based around what is problematic for each elo. If you have a high skill champ that is broken in top mmr you have to nerf it even if it affects low elo players. If you have a low skill champ that is broken in low elo but bad in high elo you still nerf it. Low mmr has not suffered because they balance 10 champs around pro play.

  • wydyadoit
    wydyadoit Member Posts: 1,145

    mmr only works with chess and other similar 1v1 static environments anyway.

    even microsofts trueskill rating is mostly bogus in terms of identifying skill for larger dynamic teams.

    Player 1 could be high tier, but players 2-5 might be low tier in a 6 man team. you'd have to average a person's estimated skill over an increasingly high number of concurrent matches in a short period of time and take into consideration how much a person affects the team's ability to win. and at a point it all breaks down.

    especially since smurfing, account sharing, casual players, and professional gamers all share the same queue pool to an extent

    videogames are always going to be about elitism. whether that's overall completion, expensive cosmetics, or ranking - players will create a meritocratic environment. unless game developers choose to remove one of the key components that makes consumers want to play their game: progression.


    but it's a nice thought and i'm all for not actively encouraging it.

  • jordywordy
    jordywordy Member Posts: 99

    Of course they don't. None of the Dead By Daylight developers are even remotely close to being as good at their own game as someone like Otzdarva or Tru3ta1ent is. There are some LoL developers that can for sure compete with pro players, but there are always 10x the amount of people working on LoL due to it being a much bigger cash cow than DBD can ever hope to be.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,779

    Yeah, I don't understand why BHVR released statistics that said Nurse wasn't overperforming overall, and Nurse wasn't overperforming at the top 5%, but then she needed a triple nerf anyway? Are balance decisions being made based on how many complaints something gets, regardless if the complaints are valid? If the statistics were correct, then a lot of players have obviously found decent counterplay for many of the Nurse players they face.

    Are balance decisions being made because the game refuses to let people see MMR values? If matchmaking matches survivors with a Nurse player that is way above their MMR range, and the survivors lose badly, will the survivors think Nurse is overpowered, when in reality the Nurse player won because they had a much higher MMR rating?

  • Trollinmon
    Trollinmon Member Posts: 691

    They already said why Nurse was getting changes. They found hotspots at the low and high end in regards to add-ons. If they heard lots of complaints then there is reason for those complaints. When they pulled up the data they found places where it was showing there was a large disparity with running certain add-ons vs not. They change those add-ons and now there is no complaining about Nurse. Still a top killer that is now in a more healthy spot.

  • woundcowboy
    woundcowboy Member Posts: 1,994

    A lot of complaints doesn’t mean the complaints are valid.