Balance Team MMR
Is there a balance team at BHvR?
They should release their MMR.
LoL has a balance team consisting of mostly highly ranked players (diamond/masters so top 2%). This means that the people who balance the game are very passionate and knowledgeable about it.
What is the average rating of the balance team at BHvR? Do they select for these things?
Comments
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Why would you want to know?
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mmr is a joke lmao stop obsessing over it
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They only play survivor
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So I know how much trust I should afford them in their decisions.
The first version of DH in the PTB had a 1 second duration.
The goal of the rework was to address the problematic aspect of the distance gained by DH. This is straight from BHvR.
The 1 second duration is a reduction of distance of 5%...... Completely negligible in almost all cases. This passed by multiple devs, and was signed off and approved.
They wasted weeks of valuable feedback and testing time. What a poor decision. It did the absolute bare minimum to address the issue they wanted to solve.
Then the Eruption change happened. People complained and they rightfully removed the Incap effect but kept the % total regression.
How are they so far off the mark so consistently?
The flashlight video is a perfect example of them being unfamiliar with their own game. Project lead gets rekt, 1 month later they complete gut flashlight blind speed. It's gone. Wow. If only they noticed this months or years before by some method of observation like playing their own game.
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Uh....okay.
So, you're complaining about changes?
MMR is almost completely meaningless.
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I'm complaining about the thought processes behind these changes. It can be a change I disagree with, but if I can understand the reasoning behind it and think it fair then that's fine. Maybe, if the person making the changes knows more about the game and can explain it to me, I might even change my mind!!!
Given the past record, it doesn't seem to be the case.
MMR is meaningless because of the cap. It still represents the overall skill level of the player. Right? That's what you were saying in the other thread? Or is it completely meaningless?
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They take 4 survivors, two well above the cap and two below, so that averages out to about the killer's mmr, at least that's how it feels.
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MMR isnt meaningless for anyone who isnt a sweating achiever in this game.
For everyone else its actually helpful to finding good matches, for you probably its bad cause sometimes there are not enough equally skilled people on, it seems without the MMR Cap, you would wait for up the half an hour for a game. Do you want this?
But I agree, bHVR should raise the cap again. Im tired of playing vs. sweatlords who has to be matches with me cause nobody else wants to or can.
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IIRC there is one person in charge of the MMR math, so it might not be a team per se. Anyways, MMR is utterly worthless for anything, since it doesn't do what people claim it does (separate beginners with 10 hour in the game from the 10k hour monsters that never miss a blink or a rush). People need to treat SBMM like a functional thing and just accept it as placebo.
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Their MMR is max, just like everyone else on this forum.
They could come out, right now, and say their MMR is 7200. Cool. What's yours?
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Yeah seen this dead hard thing floating around on these forums and i'm going to clarify that this is false
With dead hard for distance it never was the distance you couldn't be hit that mattered but the burst of speed
If you were heading to a window and knew the killer would hit you as you vault with old dead hard you could gain distance and clear the window no problem every time
With endurance dead hard you could never clear that window, as long as the killer hit you while you vaulted or waited out the dead hard you are going down. Regardless of the invinvibility distance being the same
Now 1 second was to generous and they rightfully changed that but in a lot of cases the for distance part wasen't nearly as much of a problem
The community is filled with people with the dunning kruger effect where they think they are experts and know so much about the game while they really don't
Now i'm not going to say that the devs are perfect and they do drop the ball often (ruin change for one) but in a lot of cases it really isn't that bad and most of their changes have solid reasoning
People often say that the devs are clueless about the game but the sad truth is that it's the community that is clueless
I have not seen any other game community that spreads so many falsehoods about the game they are playing
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I don't understand the scenario you described and what the false thing about DH is.
It seems like in your scenario the problematic aspect is distance and speed has little to no effect on this problem.
Imagine the same scenario you described. Except instead of getting a burst of speed you would be invulnerable for the total distance traveled with the speed boost. This is still problematic right? The killer can't do anything so it's the same situation.
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I would say it's almost meaningless.
Obviously, if you're pushing 3K MMR or are under 500 MMR, that means something. However, for everyone in-between, I don't think it matters much. If I sit at 2300, I could be farming MMR off of people at 1300, you know? At a certain point, there's a preponderance of evidence saying that it DOES mean something but until that point, I'd put very little stock in it.
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I don't really care for the balance team's mmr. If anything, I wish for it to be varied on different levels.
If the game was balanced only at top level, it would be even more unbearable for casual players and beginners, which are the two demographics that DbD is struggling to retain, precisely because it's so discouraging starting out / playing too unfrequently to improve (which makes it a vicious cycle as people then aren't motivated to play when they know they aren't going to have a good experience).
LoL may work as they think is best, but according to many of my friends who are or were regular players (one being a private coach), the game's been so overthrown by the ambition of making it a competitive professional game that it's barely playable as a casual or outside of meta, both because of balance and backlash from other players (an issue which stems, like most things, from balance).
DbD being balanced completely around top 2% players would probably be the worse option commercially as much manier players would drop / not consider trying the game at all.
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I see what your saying.
I would assume, and this is a very bold assumption given BHvRs track record, that the MMR system accounts for large discrepancies between teams and adjusts accordingly. So based on this assumption I would think that MMR is a fairly good proxy for individual skill and thus understanding of the game.
I just want to know the direction this game is headed. The meta shakeup was good, I was excited, I loved that they were finally making substantial changes. I thought these would be fairly consistent, bring the game to a better state, and introduce new ways to play the game.
Today I see that's not the case. There aren't consistent meta changes (at least things substantial that isn't just a perk here and there), some of the changes are questionable, and it appears that based on the process of these changes that BHvR doesn't understand what's going on. So who's making these changes or directing them and what can I expect? Knowing their MMR and thus understanding of the game will help me decide if I want to get back into this game seriously or just play for a few weeks every couple of months or so.
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The thing about chases is that total distance traveled doesn't matter that much
What matters is the distance between you and the killer.
Old dead hard increased that distance cause for a short time you were faster then the killer. So you could safely vault the window 100% of the time before the killer could reach you
New dead hard doesn't increase the distance between you and the killer. It may last longer but the killer will be right on your tail.
And seeing how you can't activate dead hard while vaulting all the killer would have to so was wait untill you vault or untill you are done dead harding
The only way out of that situation would be to get lucky and time your dead hard well the killer would pretty much always down you.
If there was no pallet near that window the endurance could last for 5 seconds and it still wouldn't matter
Old dead hard increased the distance between you and the killer, new one doesn't. So as far as windows are concerned you could never use the new one for distance
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I agree that distance is the problem. But in both situations you described it's distance to a point. If there is no pallet does the speed increase matter? You can't go anywhere and the killer will eventually catch you.
Endurance gives the same effect as the speed boost. The survivor gains distance to a point. They can make the pallet.
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There's never really been an indication that BHVR focuses on the competitive/high level aspects of the game. In many cases they seem to have a blind spot for it more than anything else. Matchmaking alone is evidence of this. Yes, on occasion they mention high MMR, but they release multiple perks every year that are broken in the hands of good players on either side.
That being said, I think it's fine if the devs don't grind DbD for thousands of hours in their spare time. I certainly don't come home and do my day job for fun after work until I go to bed. But I think they need to be more receptive to input from high level players and reach out to them before they sink full content cycles into DOA content.
The mid-chapter UB/mori experiment should be happening regularly. You don't need to dedicate a mid-chapter PTB to that. Actually use high MMR Fog Whisperers to play on test builds and provide feedback. You could have saved yourself a whole lot of headache with Background Player months ago, for example.
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Based on how bad the balance is and the changes for balance we get you already know what the results of that question would look like unfortunately.
The game is currently balanced around a solo queue group of survivors with about 50 hours in the game each. Hence most the balance issues and confusing changes we see.
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The MMR for DBD is pointless. Why?
There is a max MMR at ~1600. Essentially anything over that only reads as 1600. This is stupid because there is a big difference between 1600 and 2000 Elo with Chess. DBD is like nah.
They don't do proper match making because it would : feel bad as you wait for long wait times for accurate matches.
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It matters if there is a window there, which are way stronger then pallets cause they don't get used up
In the situations i descibed one is a 100% escape and the other a 100% down and vaulting a window isn't exactly an uncommon occurance
With pallets it's not really the same either, it is possible to hit between the endurance ending and them throwing the pallet but it's a tight window, there is also the point that you need to use it at the exact right time. Old dead hard you could pretty much use whenever you had a straight line. With the endurance one using it too early or too late means you could very well get hit
The distance you were invincible might be the same but the invincibility never was the problem with old dead hard. They could have completely removed that and it still would have been broken.
The problem was that it created distance between you and the killer on demand and new dead hard just doesn't do that
Not saying new dead hard is fine but it doesn't compare even slightly to the old one, even if it was a full second endurance
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I think I see what you're saying now.
Under the old DH the distance gained by the survivor is roughly 3 extra seconds of travel time for the killer. This translates to 12m of total distance gained by the survivor assuming we are at a max range lunge.
The new DH provides only provides 2m. However, because of the endurance effect if the killer triggers it the result is significantly worse for them. They will move 6.6m/s for 1.8s for a total of 11.88m.
Assuming ranges of 6m from killer to survivor and 6m from survivor to pallet.
Before the best option for the killer was to take the lunge. There was no endurance so even if they missed they would at least make distance to the pallet or vault before the survivor could trigger the action. Now the best option is to not swing, if the killer triggers DH its basically a guaranteed transition to another tile unless there's a dead zone.
In fact, because of the Endurance effect there is now a safety buffer zone in place. A good survivor will use DH when they see the killer trigger the lunge animation and won't fall for a flick. So at 6m, a Killer's lunge would be easily detected and countered as there is around a 1 second window for the hit to connect. Plenty of time for a survivor to react and dodge. To have an ample chance at actually hitting the survivor, the killer would need to be within 4m. This cuts the reaction time to about .66 seconds which is still alot. but at least they're more likely to fall for a flick.
This still takes around 3 seconds to catch up. So really, it's just the same situation as before, right? What am I missing? The total distance moved by the survivor in both scenarios is the same I think.
I agree that the previous distance was created on demand by the old Dead Hard. But here, it just exists always. Getting the Endurance proc is terrible EDIT: for the killer.
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I think the misunderstanding we are having is that i am talking about windows and you about pallets
With pallets you are correct, if you could hit them at the last second they can dead hard and be mostly safe. You can't hit the dead hard and when they reach the pallet you get stunned and don't get the hit
With windows it's different. You don't get stunned. You can hit them while they are vaulting. They can't have dead hard endurance during the vault. Unlike pallets there is nothing stopping you from hitting them.
With old dead hard the distance they gained meant they were out of your reach so you couldn't hit them while they vaulted
Do want to remind that i'm not arguing dead hard is fine now. Just that saying that the devs accomplished nothing by changing DH from dash to endurance isn't really correct
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Actually...yes. I'd be very happy to have longer waits in exchange for a better game. Especially for killer, since if they get an MMR glitch of a game, they're trapped in there for the whole game, even when it's very obvious they have no chance of winning.
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Then go make a new Feedback post about it, a new big fresh one, Arguing for your point.
its the only way to make bHVR reconsider their previous changes.
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MMR is basically non existent so this is irrelevant
Anyway most devs are too busy working to consistently play the game since game development is a full time job and not an easy one
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Then how does Riot find these people?
Shouldn't the devs play the game at work and in their spare time because they enjoy it? Not saying they should be forced to devote their spare time to it, but they should be enthusiastic enough to actually play the game.
There are basic QoL features still missing after nearly 7 years.
Where is the search function for perks?
Why is pickup and interact the same keybind for killers? Can't they separate it?
Why are so many perks allowed to be so useless?
There are people who enjoy the game and are devs, maybe in other areas of software development. But it really seems like this game is lacking in people who understand how to make things fun and interesting. Gen regression meta isn't interesting anymore. Not after more than 6 years. It's time for a change.
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Their SBMM made me laugh today. I'm in low MMR hell atm as I just started survivor from scratch on the PS5. I got matched with 3 very new players in one game, which is fine and expected. They were missing skill checks new. The Huntress we got matched against though was hitting people from across the map lol then the very next game, I got matched with 3 experienced survivors who ran circles around the obvious baby killer. I don't even know anymore lmao
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yeah I noticed that whatever side doesn't have the BP bonus has some pretty wild variation in games. as killer you can get baby survivors and 4 man bully squads.
as survivor you can get afk killers and sweaty nurses.
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What's wrong with the balance in League?
I haven't played in years TBH, but I just took a look at the win rates (this is data collected by Riot that is provided through an API, BHvR take notes!!!!) and 130/162 champions have a 50 +/- 2% win rate. That's 80% of champions!
Since the stats were last released, 16/29 Killers have a kill rate of 60 +/- 2%. That's 55%.
In DbD a players kill rate is related to how sweaty they want to play. If they want to tunnel the first person they see, they're more likely to get a 4k. BHvR doesn't release the stats on hooks per kill so we don't know the extent of tunneling and camping going on. Based on the games I play as survivor, probably around 33% of them result in tunneling or camping.
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Here's an example why MMR shouldn't be viewable.
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That second match is most likely three survs who had been dodged a couple of times. When that happens the "acceptable" MMR gap widens badly or is outright ignored, in favor of faster queue times.
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It's not as much the balance that's wrong but that the game is not enjoyable.
Players are so chained up to the meta that playing a champion you like but that's not meta will get your game dodged or your teammates swearing at you in the chat and throwing because they don't expect you to play your role well.
It's perfectly primed for competitive/professional play, with the realm of possible plays clearly defined, good system of bans and such, but it's extremely sweaty as casual and the devs care more about their tournaments being flawless than their players enjoying the game.
Virtually no one I know who currently plays really enjoys the game, and that's at various levels of experience. (I personally don't play, never have and never will, but close friends and some family do and their experiences lign up)
They are extremely hyped about esports tournaments and follow them religiously, but actually playing the game ? It's too frustrating and not worth it. Some have quit, some play periodically, but few play regularly anymore.
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What purpose would this actually serve other than encouraging elitism? One person's opinion is no more valid than someone else's just because their MMR is higher. Both of you are people playing a video game, we should be doing what we can to ensure that both of you have a good time. To say that only someone who's among the best in the world should have a say would imply that the opinions of the vast majority of people playing in the middle of the pack don't matter, which is incredibly selfish.
I really can't begin to stress how rare it is for someone to be near or above the matchmaking softcap for MMR. Far more people claim to be 'max MMR' when in reality, there's nowhere near that many people up there.
That said, that's what the community team is here for; to take feedback from everyone, including the people who are up there.
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I don't think the poster is saying that only people at the very top of MMR should have the only say in how the game is balanced.
But it is fairly clear to most of the people actually in the top percentage of players in this game that the balance team doesn't seem to have that insight from top players that the poster says LoL devs have.
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Am i the only one that thinks that LoL really shouldn't be set as the standerd?
They might have had the "insight" to balance for top play but everything bellow that was miserable from what i remember it.
They had nerf Irelia just as DbD has nerf pig
I haven't played in years so i don't know how it is now but from what i remember i prefer DbD's balancing.
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"I really can't begin to stress how rare it is for someone to be near or above the matchmaking softcap for MMR."
That's going to sting for some people here
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Every other ranked PvP game I play has visible ranks (MMR ranks). And it’s not just for elitism. Some people just want to know where they are in the rankings, and some people spend more time playing the game because they want to raise their rank.
And hiding ranks just makes other types of elitist posts, like when players say “good killers can easily counter X. You must not be a good killer if you are having problems with X”. People can make all sorts of wild accusations on these forums, specifically because no one can prove what their MMR is.
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Oh no!
My galaxy-sized ego :(
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Did he just say they balance a PvP game around the loudest voices on a forum?
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Not to mention all the problems that hiding progress creates. There's zero culture of improvement in this game. None. What do players do when they start losing consistently? Work on their power usage or pathing? Work on their game sense? None of the above. They assume they're at the hidden MMR cap and declare it a balance issue.
You have a PVP game where a sizeable chunk of the community straight up refuses to self-reflect or improve. Other PVP games have entire forums and channels dedicated to coaching. Players talk about spending hours in aim trainers. DbD players often stand in a corner or go AFK the second they have a rough match.
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd like to think many of those players might view it differently if they saw that they were actually *exceedingly* average and not top MMR demigods.
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Id love to know my mmr on spirit because i did have a streak of like 35 3-4ks as i got better with her. Now i have started getting those teams that know the ins and outs and are very good at what they do, so I've had to change up as well. Im guessing me and who i am facing are probably very evenly matched now while before i was lower than what i should have been. So i have just been trying to get better than i currently am. Self reflection is a nice way to get better. Just not everyone sees it that way especially in a asymmetrical game with so much stuff that can influence a genuinely fair matchup (coal tower vs coldwind, iri addons and certain perks, ect). It would just be cool to see how far up i am though. I know im probably nowhere near the cap but id think from how my matches play currently i'm probably above average.
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The balance team balances for all elos based around what is problematic for each elo. If you have a high skill champ that is broken in top mmr you have to nerf it even if it affects low elo players. If you have a low skill champ that is broken in low elo but bad in high elo you still nerf it. Low mmr has not suffered because they balance 10 champs around pro play.
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mmr only works with chess and other similar 1v1 static environments anyway.
even microsofts trueskill rating is mostly bogus in terms of identifying skill for larger dynamic teams.
Player 1 could be high tier, but players 2-5 might be low tier in a 6 man team. you'd have to average a person's estimated skill over an increasingly high number of concurrent matches in a short period of time and take into consideration how much a person affects the team's ability to win. and at a point it all breaks down.
especially since smurfing, account sharing, casual players, and professional gamers all share the same queue pool to an extent
videogames are always going to be about elitism. whether that's overall completion, expensive cosmetics, or ranking - players will create a meritocratic environment. unless game developers choose to remove one of the key components that makes consumers want to play their game: progression.
but it's a nice thought and i'm all for not actively encouraging it.
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The purpose is that players who are in the top percentiles of MMR have a better understanding of the game. They invest more time and effort into learning the mechanics. Thusly, when changes need to be made they will have a better understanding of what exactly needs to change, what the options for change are, and what the expected outcomes of the change will be.
I am not saying that only the best players should have a say. It's just that what they do say carries more weight than the 2 day old baby Dwight complaining about Trapper. For baby Dwight, the solution to Trapper isn't to nerf him. It's to learn the strategies to counter him. Check possible loops ahead of time before doing a gen. Check the ground at key points during a chase. Memorize where traps can go inside the terrain and become invisible. Learn what the different addons do. Work with your team to disable traps for them while they are in chase. These are all good solutions that don't involve mechanical changes to Trapper.
Yes 2% of the top rated players is rare. There's 3 million copies of DbD sold. AFAIK, there's around 1 million daily players. There's a pool of 20,000 in the top 2%. Certainly, one can gain feedback from them.
Some of these balance changes just don't make sense. The initial version of the Eruption change was awful. The Incap effect was the problem, it could have been removed or reduced. The regression wasn't an issue. Under the old Eruption, a survivor lost around 30 seconds of gen time. 10% regression on the generator, 20 seconds of incap. The first PTB version the survivor lost at most around 10 seconds from the % current regression. That's if the gen is at 99%. I guess the average would be around 5%. That's around 5 seconds. So it's around 1/6th of the previous slowdown.
This was a MASSIVE nerf and killed the perk. Thankfully the % total regression was returned. However, you didn't need everyone on the PTB screaming to learn this would have been a bad idea. One person who understands the game well on the team could have looked at this and said "Hey, if we make this change it isn't a regression perk anymore, so why even keep the regression? Let's just rework it entirely into something else then." And that's a totally fine change to make.
Maybe the perk could be more interesting, maybe it inflicts blindness and oblivious for a while making rescuing harder. Maybe it starts regressing and locks down pallets and vaults in an area around it for some time period forcing survivors to get out or deal with the killer but still having the opportunity to work on the gen if its close to being finished.
Many of the perks we have are bad, not interesting, and most importantly not fun. It seems like if the game is going to be in a more healthy state with more varied builds there needs to be people on the development team that play it thoroughly and understand it.
This isn't elitism, this is about making changes to a game that's been around for six years and making them optimally. If I am looking for someone to construct my house I'm not gonna choose Bob The Builder with 1 year of experience making sidewalks. That's not Elitism. I am looking for someone who has experience in building houses and who has shown their capability. There's nothing wrong with that.
You can still listen to feedback from average players. Just have a good starting point with changes to gather feedback in the first place. This comes from experienced players who have a vested interest in the game. Maybe the experienced player has some bad takes, okay, but these bad takes will be less frequent than someone who is just starting out.
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Of course they don't. None of the Dead By Daylight developers are even remotely close to being as good at their own game as someone like Otzdarva or Tru3ta1ent is. There are some LoL developers that can for sure compete with pro players, but there are always 10x the amount of people working on LoL due to it being a much bigger cash cow than DBD can ever hope to be.
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i’ll second what the guy above me said. Someone who doesn’t know the game very well doesn’t have much meaningful to contribute to a discussion on balance because they don’t know what’s going on, other than that they are upset at losing.
You also have said numerous times that you don’t balance around top level play, yet have nerfed killers such as Nurse, Deathslinger, Billy, and others even though the vast majority of players were not good enough to unlock their potential, and they were not a statistical problem. If you were truly balancing around “everyone “, those killers wouldn’t have been nerfed.
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Yeah, I don't understand why BHVR released statistics that said Nurse wasn't overperforming overall, and Nurse wasn't overperforming at the top 5%, but then she needed a triple nerf anyway? Are balance decisions being made based on how many complaints something gets, regardless if the complaints are valid? If the statistics were correct, then a lot of players have obviously found decent counterplay for many of the Nurse players they face.
Are balance decisions being made because the game refuses to let people see MMR values? If matchmaking matches survivors with a Nurse player that is way above their MMR range, and the survivors lose badly, will the survivors think Nurse is overpowered, when in reality the Nurse player won because they had a much higher MMR rating?
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They already said why Nurse was getting changes. They found hotspots at the low and high end in regards to add-ons. If they heard lots of complaints then there is reason for those complaints. When they pulled up the data they found places where it was showing there was a large disparity with running certain add-ons vs not. They change those add-ons and now there is no complaining about Nurse. Still a top killer that is now in a more healthy spot.
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A lot of complaints doesn’t mean the complaints are valid.
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