Tunneling is the meta, thanks to the devs.
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Tunneling isn't required at most pubs, high mmr is another story but 90% of the people dont belong in top mmr,, also tunneling someone at 4 or 5 gens is a whole other story than tunneling someone at 2 gens,, it's just easy ceap win,, what amazes me is those killers that tunnel while using 3 4 gen perks and still barely get 1 or 2 kills
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You didn't make any meaningful reply to any point I made. All you said was :
"you don't have any good arguments"
Tunneling is efficient gameplay for both sides. This is why survivors will take a hit when a gen is at 99% progress so they can finish while the killer is in the recovery animation. That type of play makes for very bad vibes - but it wins. The error in your thought process is that it is only a problem when a killer tunnels.
What does a survivor get for finishing a generator? You get 1/5 of your objective done. What do you get for one hook on a survivor? Nothing. What do you get for one hook on three survivors? You get nothing. What do you get for hooking one person three times? You get a kill.
Listen to what the big streamers say who play both sides. They say : the survivor sets the pace for the game. They are either chill or they blast gens.
Regardless of what you say you are - you have a disillusioned view on balance.
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Oh, no, I was replying to you calling me a Survivor main attempting to spread disinformation. I found that to be both amusing and very sad, as it shows you need to resort to ad hominin attacks rather than actually bolstering your argument. It is interesting to me that you and @ProfessorDunwich tried the same thing on the same day.
I never said tunneling wasn't a good or efficient strategy. In fact, I explicitly said that it was necessary if Survivors have decided to be optimal. You certainly can't expect to win against optimal players if you aren't also playing optimally.
The simple fact of the matter is this: most players are not good. You do not need to tunnel every game. However, tunneling is easy. It's simple, efficient and is difficult to counter. Players will always optimize the fun out of games, be they Survivor or Killer, and tunneling's prevalence is simply more proof of that.
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Ghostface marked me tonight and during the chase three gens popped. By the time the squad unhooked me another one popped. Man only had one and a half chases and lost four gens
I know I was a survivor but idk how that’s fair tbh
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-"calling me a Survivor main attempting to spread disinformation"
The way you were speaking it sounded just like that. Maybe you should be more careful how you say what you say - especially if you agree with my points. When I brought it up it was not to say : you're a survivor therefore nothing you have to say is valid; my intent was to say people who only have play one side really don't understand this game's nuance.
This forum and the steam discussion have always been filled with people yelling for knee jerk nerf reactions.
-"It's just surprising to me that people think Killer isn't the best it's ever been."
You also spew nonsense like this.
In some aspects killer was more fun in ~August 2016 than it is now. Why? Pallet looping didn't exist. Pallets were insanely weak because they had a delay before you got stunned and had something like a -40% hitbox for the stun compared to now. You died on hook much faster; on top of that a lot of people tried to escape from the hook as a regular event. NOED lasted forever, gave you 9% movement speed and was not a hex.
There was a lot of bad things in 2016 but it was a more fun experience overall - not because the game was new but because the game was just different. DBD used to be mostly about hide and seek not "chase me".
You could list all the really bad things in 2016 and that would be a fair counter argument. But then I would say what about in August of 2017 when we had super bloodlust? That was way more fun to play killer than now. Dead hard didn't exist yet so playing killer was still good.
Soon after we had the era of DH, DS, BT, unbreakable and that was not very fun to play against as killer.
Let me guess- like most people you didn't play DBD during either of those eras?
Read for yourself how strong old bloodlust was :
Notice that the decay was in no way tied to kicking a pallet so you could pallet break and then keep your BL.
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who's gonna make sure the killers are gonna play nice then?
Cause I remember even before all these changes I was tunneled, I was camped and I was slugged just as much as I am right now
what was the problem then?
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The problem is the same as a lot of competitive games--high ranks and low rank / solo is effectively two different games, and balancing both is near impossible.
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BUFF DS BACK TO FIVE SECONDS PROBLEM SOLVED
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this is not right because if it was right devs would never had implemented Decisive in 2016 when the game just came out, and many other perks that helps with tunneling even if old ds was dumb but remained till 2018 like that.
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about the 95% debatable many times 3 v 1 is easily winnable when killer focuses way too much in one, as long as tehre arent more than 2 to 3 gens is still very doable. unless is nurse or something very strong
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2 gens is just about max you can do especially with high mobility killers cause they will just tunnel relentlessly or slug not saying every game is like this but more than half I get tunnelled and my team just let me get tunnelled perks of solo q
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Mind games are just trying to be unpredictable and hoping it pays off. It's no more skillful than flipping a coin and guessing the correct side.
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Lies and wishful thinking :D the only reason why killer tunneling hardcore now is because they no longer have to fear a DS i.e. free tunnel, most don't have a DS with them but if they also have it with them, the duration is so short that it doesn't matter, bad DS = tunneling meta, We had that before, when enduring had made the dust from DS to 2.5 seconds, people liked to tunnel, when DS were nerfed, people stopped playing DS, most of the matches were like this: no obsasstion = no ds in game and the killers tunneled hardcore, which is why bhvr made it so that there is always an obsesstion in the game so that the killers don't tunnel in completely xDD
"if bhvr really nerfs DS then i will tunnel so hard because you don't have to fear anything" and bhvr do that or why do you think people slugged the survivor for 1min when he was being tunnelled? simply that way ? no of course not! just because they didn't want to eat the DS, which is why the tunneling was also risky
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👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
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Perks do not fix core game design issues
BHVR considers tunnelling a valid part of the game, instead of changing that - they instead provide perks to help deal with it. DS was also a perk you had to fork out money for. It's not like DS was a free perk anyone could get
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Maybe you should not instantly attack people for daring to have a different opinion than you. If you had actually bothered to read instead of having a knee-jerk reaction, you'd see that I didn't advocate for any balance changes.
Killer is easier in 2023 than it was in 2016. You can have your rose-tinted glasses, but the rest of us live in reality.
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This mentality will slowly kill this game over time. And Killer mains will continue spreading this "must tunnel or guaranteed loss" like gospel until the game is changed to be much easier for them in other ways. Killers will endlessly post for more buffs and threaten to continue tunneling until they do, to the point where tunneling really isn't optimal but guess what? They WILL STILL TUNNEL. Tunneling will have to be literally prevented by some game mechanic for it to ever stop. Otherwise the goal posts will just keep moving and the "justification" to tunnel will never end.
Killers need to improve there ability to find Survivors and get downs, but why do that when you can use Lethal Pursuer and just pick your victim right away, and then just go in the loop of tunneling or punishing the unhooker? You barely have to skillfully chase or find anyone when you use such a tactic, and then wonder why you can't catch other players? Then you boost your MMR to levels you shouldn't be at, and start getting stomped...but that's okay, it's just the games fault right? It can't be a skill issue at all, right? I wish they never implemented MMR at all because it's just one more thing people crutch on to falsely build their flimsy arguments.
Hard Tunneling is simply the easiest way to secure a win, deeming it NECESSARY is just a flat out lie. I play against Killers all the time who win just fine without doing it, at least so fiercely. Maybe they'll do it to a hook or two when it's strategic to do so, but don't make it their first and foremost goal at 5 gens. When I play Killer I don't do it: I win some, I lose some. I like winning just like anyone else but it isn't everything, and losing can teach me a lot.
Hopefully something can change that actually makes Killers believe they aren't forced to tunnel (like gen speeds being changed without just slapping on more seconds), or some crazy mechanic gets introduced tha makes it impossible to do so without hurting the Killers chance of winning. Killers can definitely use a little help but I think the game is actually pretty balanced right now. But sadly I don't think that will ever happen. We are going to be stuck in this Killer vs. Survivor balancing hell for the rest of this game's lifespan, and that is just plain sad.
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The game would be in a much healthier state if they made it impossible to eliminate someone early (shared hooks maybe?) and then rebalanced gen speeds/killer strength/survivor objectives to compensate. Would make the game more fun for both sides.
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Shelter woods in 2016 vs shelter woods in 2023 says otherwise.
If you want to make it worse we can both play Billy.
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Tunneling is the Meta because its a 1v4 game. This has nothing to do with the devs.
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It is objective fact that the Killer experience is better now then it was many years ago though
Like there's no disputing it, it's a fact.
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Yes Killer is easier now then before the buff update but then we have a issue of skill vs skill. A Killer could have a ton of easy or equal skill matches early but then the skill gap become huge and then all those buffs don't help at all
That's where I was as Killer, I reached a area where the Survivor's skill level outmatched mine and with the number advantage I never got more than one kill. With how match making is done ATM the likely chance of hitting that skill gap isuch greater now.
Also don't get me wrong I am not in denial of my skill level I'm was a casual player when I played and if you would rate my skill from 1-100 I'm sat around a 60 but that's if I played a A-Tier+ Killer and wanted to take my games more seriously.
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In some ways yes, in others no.
Shelter woods in 2016 was more fun then than Shelter woods is now in 2023. There is a reason that map had a 76% kill rate. It was hide or die and was the only map with no infinite loops (after the first month when they closed one shack window).
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Do you not think it's more likely that after playing the game for so long you're just bored of it
The only reason DBD survived with all of the massive glaring flaws it had back then was because people hadn't fully figured them out. By the time the game had gained a decent following, people had figured out how to do all that and it was common place for people who weren't brand new
As much criticism as I give the developers, at least now they understand that stuff like looping is a core part of the experience now and they balance around it; for better or worse.
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It's not what they said in the perks overhaul patch notes and live stream:
"On the survivor side, there is a clear preference for perks that grant second chance. BT, DS, DH, and perks of that nature help a survivor avoid certain death [...] A benefit of these second chance perks is how they help prevent UNFUN situations, namely being camped or tunneled out of the game (repeatedly being targeted after being unhooked). In order to incentivize a meaningful change to the meta, it was clear that we needed to address these controversial tactics. Second chance perks should be nice to have, not essential to ensure ENJOYABLE GAMEPLAY.
[...]
With these base changes, we hope survivors can switch up their perk load-outs without fear that camping and tunneling will cut their next match short."
Yes, they addressed it and called it unfun and said they would try and mitigate that, they gave a whole lot of buffs to the killer and survivors in this patch to incentivize the killers to avoid camping and tunneling, cause they said they know it isn't fun, but it just didn't work out.
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Oh yeah I wasn't saying the devs have done nothing to help with camping/tunnelling
I'm more so saying that they won't really change the "core" of the issue because to them it's not an issue, if that makes sense. They've always said they want to allow killers to camp and tunnel because they consider it part of the gameplay experience
That doesn't mean they won't add things like perks to help mitigate it, it's just they won't ever yk directly do something about it like many people ask for.
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I think they will, eventually.
They don't want their player base to feel like the game is not fun anymore. As soon as they see people are miserable to the point of leaving they will do anything they can to change it. They did it a lot of times before, we just tend to forget the changes they make upon our feedback, we kind of throw it under the rug and focus only on the bad things
We did complain about maps, they're reworking them, we complained about gen speed, they reworked them (maybe it didn't fix the problem? but they did rework them), we complained about flashlight clicks, they "removed" them, we complained about nurse, they reworked her, we complained about perks, they're always changing them, etc etc etc.
The game is in constant change, it's just a matter of being optimistic or pessimistic about it.
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not saying anything i didnt know. u wouldnt create nothing to counter tunneling if u thought it was great and fine. u just dont want to deal with the hassle it means if u change it, so u change it indirectly.... now u also have the basekit 10 seconds BT after so many years of complaining, and to be fair i think there is more to come for tunneling.
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They probably won't do anything to totally remove Camping, Tunneling, or Slugging because they also said those are valid strats for Killers to use and it's a thin line because what ever Fix they do come up with, they don't want to punish those who use them correctly along with those who use them "toxicly" and they don't want the fix to become a abusable by either side
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-"Do you not think it's more likely that after playing the game for so long you're just bored of it"
I think I know my own mind. I enjoy the game more as an idea than a reality. The game has devolved at high levels of play to gen and survivor tunneling. It makes for very try hard games that are not fun.
The MMR system makes the game less fun.
The hud showing gen progress was a massive buff for survivors (one that is not necessary).
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Survivors running dead hard every game, and then wonder why they get tunneled. Probably because tunneling you off the hook, hitting you as you get unhooked so you get deep wounds, and then downing you while you can't use dead hard, is a nice counter to dead hard.
If you don't want to get tunneled, run sprint burst instead, because then you can sprint away. As a survivor, i generally run sprint burst and OTR. Basically, it means if they hard tunnel me, i get another 2 health states and a fair chase where i got a headstart to get to something. In those situations, i like getting tunneled because holding M1 is boring.
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they just released a ptb with an anti-slugging feature for us to try. They're definetly not so pro-camping/tunneling/slugging as you guys make it seem. They are and will still keep working on ways to addres these stuff. Nothing is set stone.
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no it isn't... i'll say only this: i started play in 2019 and once i was one of the killers out there that considered tunneling for unskilled people since i had no problems to play "fair" and did well most of the times... the game seems more fair overall, without BS perks (except ds), items or basekit stuff... now well, if i don't want to being genrushed i must tunnel from the beginning since there's no way to stop survivors to do their objective without playing in a certain way... the game was more fun in the past than now, and it was easier since the various map loadout had only a couple of troublesome spots (infinites), but everything else was FINE more or less (except keys)... if survivors wanted to play with broken stuff such as instaheals (which in those days they were a lot more rare since the bloodweb rework now spawn them like they were brown stuff and encourage to use strong and unfun items/addons all the time) you had valid counters to make them pay for that (old mori that require a single hook before killing someone or the good old instasaw billy), now most of the times the most expensive addons for killers are extremely underwhelming and the ones that are somewhat useful are brown oe yellow (it's sufficient to think that killers like demogorgon, twins or knight have their best addons placed in the brown/yellow section)
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And it failed miserably too, hence why it was back shelved and taken back to the drawing board because it failed one of the three categories I said. Slugging helps create pressure in the match same goes with camping or tunneling to get down to 3v1 instead of 4v1.
The Devs themselves don't want to totally remove any of those but rather find ways that would give incentives not to. One of the best ways I have seen is make hooks count for something like giving a stacking buff/debuff for how many hooks the Killer gets.
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They seem to be in an endless cycle of pleasing a player base that will never be pleased. Unless they're gaining players as fast as they're losing them they aren't drawing new players in. So trying to balance or cater the game to new players is a bit silly. If anything it seems there's a slow leak.
As someone else said a 4k should require sweat. But 1ks and 2ks shouldn't, which quite a few of the killers do unless you resort to what everyone calls "unfun" tactics. They have "balance", but it's probably not because a few survivors die each match it's more likely they have a bunch of full escapes and 4ks balancing themselves out with a smattering of 1-3ks when it should be the other way around.
Getting 4ks all the time due to slugs/camping/tunneling isn't as much fun as getting a random assortment of kill amounts from 1-4 with a few full escapes because you were all enjoying the game. Just like it can't be fun running 4-man sweat squads to a full escape every match night after night. That's why the flashlight tea-bagging stuff started. Out of boredom. The game is too easy as the survivor. You literally have to face killers who can ignore game mechanics to struggle. And that's why those killers are the most played.
Maybe they could start trying to balance the game more evenly so that it's fun and fair for both sides.
Just a baked perspective is all. Nothing vitriolic here.
✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️✌️
I come in peace!
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We had this realisation in my rant-thread, too. I am equally as amazed, that you seem to be experiencing nothing of this frustration and pressure, that a lot of us other killers seem to suffering from these last couple of weeks, but this just shows how very diverse and individual DBD sessions can be. Well, at the very least, I am happy for you.
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And I, in turn, am very sorry your experience has been so poor.
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I can agree that proxy camping hooked survivor (scourge if possible) in an area of 3-4 unfinished gens and then tunnel him to grave is META (plus foolproof). However, I completely disagree that you can"t win as a killer or have a decent outcome by not doing that. There are so many killer aura reading perks, gen regression perks that can buy time and find survivors. But if you cant finish chases soon enough to cash in on those it is a skill issue.
Some Twitch streamers with 7k hours in the game may have given illusion that 4K is the normal outcome. It is not and shouldn't be like that.
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Wholesome :) e-hug ;D
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which doesn't mean they don't want to change it like most of you said, right?
my original post was about people's comments saying the devs never addressed tunneling, camping and slugging and that's totally not true. They've acknowledged these "strategies as not fun a few times already, and they're working on them.
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Not fully ture there are plenty of maps still that have many strong loops were multiple chases and downs just won't happen fast enough aginst decent survivors. There's items and perks that can make the first few gens go by so fast that wit in 2 minutes your already almost at end game and you've only had one chase.
One big misconception is only top survivors are a real problem when thos is not true because most killer player aren't otz we are just some person thay like playing killer for a few hours and don't want to have a sweat fest every game.
I see alot of casual player stuff thr9wn around on these forums and in videos but it's almost never talking about the casual killer. Most survivors shouldn't have to have every map memorized to play effectively, I agreee but why is it expected for every killer to know every map by heart or they just suck and need to get better.
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I would argue that in casual gameplay, the game actually leans into the Killers favor.
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I would argue other solely on hoe easy gens are to do. If just one person on a team is decent in chase the other 3 can just sit on gens. I'm not talking about God survivor in chase just 30 second in chase is over half a gen times 3 assuming the time it took just to find a survivor. What if the killer only plays a couple hours a day maybe 3 days out the week are they supposed to know every map and know how to run every tile. If you want causal then both sides need to be balanced as casual. Think about all the times a killer addon has been nerfed or changed because killers at a high level are using it and it's really effective at high level play.
I do want to point out that in 90% of cases tunneling isn't need I totally agree on that point.
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Yes but acknowledging that they are unfun and working on them doesn't mean they will totally get rid of them.
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but who's saying they will totally get rid of them, tho?
I don't think I ever said that...
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Yea your right looking back you never said that and I misunderstood what you were saying but dosnt change what I said but I shouldn't of made it directed to you as if you said it. Sorry bout that
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It's been the meta since 2016.
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Average players should not be able to win a large majority of games. People who put serious time into the game should be able to. That's how investing time into anything works. Otz just did a week of strict no tunneling and no busted builds where he won 81% of his games. I watched a comp player do an even harder challenge where he didn't tunnel, camp , or even slug. He 4k'd on all killers except two. I think there is sufficient evidence to say that it's not necessary to tunnel if you are sufficiently skilled. Some people don't want to admit it because it bruises their egos. If people want to tunnel because it makes the game easier then fine. I just want some players to stop lying and saying it's necessary when it's clearly not. I want people to admit they do it because it's EZ MODE.
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Then after they remove slugging they can address those builds.
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All killers should gain a 30% regression pop after hooking a survivor as basekit, this would incentivate killers to patrol gens and not stay camping.
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