The problem isn’t skull merchant
So with merchant’s release there’s been a lot of discourse over her ability to camp a 3 gen. This similarly happened with knight (I’m sure you’ve all seen the hens video)
But I feel like a lot of people are placing the blame on the wrong thing. The number 1 cause of this issue is not these killers but the current gen kick meta. Fact is without overcharge, CoB Jolt and PR this strategy wouldn’t really work. CoB and overcharge are solely designed for defending a 3 gen which is not something a perk should be designed around
Once the meta shake up was released we began to see complaints of killers camping 3 gens from the start of the match giving survivors no room to counteract it. These perks incentivise kicking the same gens repeatedly while not interacting with the survivors which was not true of the other metas.
These killers definitely aren’t engaging to play against but this is more an issue with current regression meta than the Killer’s designs. By creating a more engaging regression meta I guarantee this strategy would become rarer than a twins main
Comments
-
no, it's really a problem of Skull Merchant very much as well, because camping a 3 gen is her only option.
It doesn't help that this strategy is already very obnoxious and powerful (although I personally don't see an issue with general 3 genning, apart from a few characters doing that like Knight or skull merchant), it's that skull merchant can do only 3 genning if she wants to be at least seemingly effective.
It's like Pyramid Head's power was nothing but torment + cages and the latter were in their first iteration. Literally the killer only good for tunnelling.
Or Bubba before rework. Only good at facecamping.
Although even these killers would at least be powerful, because efficiency of their power isn't fully under survivors' control.
So yeah, Skull Merchant is a huge problem on her own that just so happens to multiply the severity of the other issue.
25 -
Knight is still better at locking down a 3-gen so I don't know why people are only now complaining about it.
6 -
But in that case isn’t knight the way worse offender? Obviously both are effective at it but knight is way worse. Hell even plague is better at it
Fact is any killer can 3 gen due to the strength of these perks. Killers like trapper and hag also excel at this (Trappers main strategy is either camping the basement or a 3 gen)
2 -
This killer made me miss playing thanat legions and twins and this speaks volumes,, once again great concept / design horrible execution,, i kid you not EVERY single skunk merchant i meet loves making love to their gens,, if devs want killers to play like this they might as well add killer bots,,
5 -
Just curious but what builds were the merchants running? Again perks like CoB, Overcharge and jolt heavily incentivise just camping a 3 gen since that’s literally what they excel at
The same kinda applies to merchant but without these perks it would be reasonable to counter her set up. The insane free regression combined with drones is what makes it an issue
2 -
I feel like it's a combination of both though. With the current meta, most of the killer roster is able to patrol a 3 gen quite well, but killers like Knight and Skull Merchant seem to have the best powers in regards to 3 genning. At the minute, the only thing you can do is remove a drone, but by the time you've done that, she's already come back and put another one in the exact same spot. Even without the current meta, that's painfully boring to play against.
9 -
No, the problem is with the killers, because both of them have abilities that prevent a survivor from returning to the gen immediately. This in turn means that the supercharged regression is basically guaranteed to eat a chunk off the gen.
You can counter COB + Overcharge by being quick to run back and tap the gen. It's not nearly as much a problem on other killers, and going after those perks would be a terrible idea given the general lack of viable alternatives at the moment.
0 -
I think it’s a problem with both.
3 -
So if they didn't do the 6.1.0 would it be any different?
0 -
So you want every good regression perk to get nerfed and make every killer especially the weak ones suffer immensely? Hell to ######### no! Call of Brine and Overcharge are fine perks which are very much needed for other killers besides Skull Merchant to stand a chance. Take them away, and killer will be in a very abysmal state with no good perks period, for 3 gens or not.
3 -
Probably. Pop and ruin were meta and neither of which were particularly good at 3 gens
We also had perks like BBQ which encouraged constant chases
5 -
What killer actually needs either? If anything PR and jolt are better for general gameplay assuming you’re not going in with the intention of camping a 3 gen
1 -
It’s definitely boring no doubt (like literally every other killer camping a 3 gen) but without the insane free consistent regression from CoB and eruption it wouldn’t really be possible (Unless the 3 gen was super tight like haddonfield but again any killer can do that
1 -
People that need to kick gens especially without overcommitting to one chase to get a down for their perks. Base regression and base 2.5 damage suck, so people want good perks that increase those, and of course, Pop is mediocre, so that’s not an option either.
2 -
So what should they do? 3 gen is a legit strategy, why is it anything that works as intended on killer has to go? You know there ARE some people who only prefer to play killer, can we think about them before deciding we should nerf all the perks that got buffed/already nerfed during the “killer sided-patch”?
5 -
Strong slowdown:
Pain Res, Corrupt Intervention, Deadlock, No Way Out
Decent slowdown:
Git of Pain, Jolt, Dead Man's Switch, Eruption, Plaything + Pentimento, Ruin, Pop Goes the Weasel
Viable but low-tier slowdown:
Coulrophobia, Sloppy Butcher, Thrill of the Hunt in a totem build, Oppression + Surveillance on a mobility killer
You have many strong options that aren't CoB or Overcharge. Stop being overdramatic.
2 -
Cool... so we can start asking for reversions???
Cause I think that if they backtracked on some of the changes it would be better in the long run
3 -
It's extremely strong for slugging, and is decent for general slowdown. Seriously, try it out.
Survivors pretty much can't pick up survivors in your TR unless they are 99.9%'d with Unbreakable.
It's viable in it's niche, it's just not a perk you see most run.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
This is why I run Deja Vu as Survivor.
1 -
Well, if you don’t, especially with weak killers, you lose.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Definitely should. I’d take old ruin and pop over this anyday
0 -
Doesn’t help if the killer camps from the start
3 -
maybe that Vitto perk that lets you charge up?
0 -
Go watch some of the literal thousands upon thousands of videos people have made where they win while using bad perks or even straight up no perks. Not even against bad survivors, against strong survivors on strong maps.
Try playing without perks for a few games and see how well you do. The difference is not that big in most cases if you are playing sweaty and trying to win. In pub matches, you can just kind of do whatever and win most of your games if you know your killer.
Comp is the only time that you need meta and skill to win. Most of the time you can do fine with just skill.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
Potential energy has some use but can’t win the war of attrition against Cob Overcharge reliably
1 -
Hmm i don't know if i particularly agree with all of this take. I just reached a 40 4k streak on spirit (first to admit even with that im not the best). I did experiment with jolt and PR but at my mmr at least people know to move away from the gens in chase or power through jolts regression and the people on them hop off once pr is guaranteed to happen. And of course make a mental note of which hooks have been shown to be PR hooks. As well as items being on the increase like medkits and toolboxes removing some of the regression quicker or making you securing a down more difficult. Survivors can keep a constant pressure with low downtime with the right setup. Not to say PR and Jolt aren't bad but they can be a lot easier countered and played around than perks that are entirely in your control to kick and return and always able to be applied. I also like that i can kick a gen then get a nearby survivor and hook them, that keeps a constant pressure while the gens also being ticked down with 275-400% regression (sometimes gens gone to 0% with these two). I assume Jolt and PR can be worse for m1 killers since they don't even have the catchup midchase spirit does as the survivor can really stall if they have the resources and knowledge, i don't know if jolt and pr have the reward.
(These are just findings of my playing, this is not a full fact of course as everyones games are different. So feel free to inform me of your findings)!
0 -
Strong Disagree, it's not just the perks.
I've seen Skull Merchants with no gen perks hold a 3 gen for quite a long time. The perks just make it even easier
There's a few reasons why:
- Her power heavily rewards you for using drones near objectives - normally this isn't an issue because she has 4 drones to protect 7 generators and survivors can disable the drones while she's off elsewhere but in a 3 gen that never happens
- Her power has like 3/4 different types of tracking and in a 3 gen scenario that almost guarantees she knows where everyone is. You ignore the drone to try and push the gen, she knows where you are. You remove the drone to counterplay her power, she knows where you are then comes and puts the drone back up instantly.
- The main "counterplay" to 3 genning aside from not getting 3 genned in the first place is being healthy, taking a hit and zooming to the opposite end of the map, getting healed and then keeping the pressure going. Her power negates this if you ignore it
- A lot of maps have built in 3 gen scenarios from minute 1. Examples: Family Residence, Haddonfield, Resting Place; these maps due to their layout and gen spawn encourage 3 genning from the start of the match and Skull Merchant can do that extremely easily
That's my perspective at least, having watched the playstyle in action from both sides
7 -
"perk is slightly nerfed, therefore it is completely unusable garbage trash"
Try running Ruin or Pop for a few games. They are still decently strong. Ruin more so, Pop less so.
I find that Ruin is great since you can be more efficient with your time instead of stopping to kick gens all the time. Lets you tie up more chases earlier in the game, putting exponential pressure on the survivors since you are chaining downs AND the gens are regressing for free.
Pop is more questionable, but I've seen a lot of the best killers in the game run it in high stakes games and come out on top.
1 -
Well I dont use those perks so I would not know. Whats does that combo give?
0 -
Basically makes gens regress super fast the moment they are kicked
And you can't just gen tap to counter it because the Overcharge skillcheck is there, adding more risk for the survivor
0 -
The problem is a combination and not limited to Skull Merchant as there are many Killers whose only viable options against similarly skilled survivors are 3 genning and/or camping and tunneling. I don't think they're necessary if the Killer has played long enough they regularly get less-skilled survivors but, if their skill is on an equal footing, game mechanics favor survivors over the weaker Killers.
For people learning who will quite often get equally skilled survivors or survivors of greater skill their only chance with many Killers is to 3 gen and/or tunnel and camp. I'm newer than a lot of forum posters as I have about a year and a half in the game but that's just how it is. Survivors gloating and teabagging doesn't help the situation either.
If any game mechanics are introduced that directly counter 3 genning (which I don't care about) and/or camping and tunneling (which I hope gets nerfed to the ground) they have to be accompanied by buffs to the weaker Killers so players don't lose at the character selection screen.
I think either reverting the nerf to Ruin or eliminating the hex aspect and restoring Pop to its old glory would be a great option.
1 -
yeah how fast
0 -
It's a problem with both the killer designs and the perks themselves. PGTW was healthy because you had to succeed at something for that level of regression. And Ruin at 200% was healthy because it required active gameplay and was counterable by cleansing. You couldn't have that regression indefinitely. The devs made the mistake of not examining the "why" before they addressed the "what".
CoB/Overcharge is an unhealthy synergy because the killer doesn't have to succeed at anything to get a great level of regression and it doesn't go away at any point in the trial. It's possible from the start until the end, and it only requires a gen kick to achieve with no preconditions like a successful chase and hook. It leads to a very boring and overly long game.
5 -
Keep in mind though this comparison doesn't factor in the small amount that gets knocked off each time a killer kicks a gen, which if survivors are constantly contesting will slowly add up over time.
5 -
Because it’s being abused to a ridiculous degree. These thirty minute attrition games are not it. I really don’t understand how people can defend it. It’s not even rare anymore. Games like this are very common now and are frankly a waste of time. I personally have other things to do and don’t have time to sit in multiple 30+ minute matches every day. That’s why you see so many people just give up against killers who hard commit to a three gen.
4 -
There’s no way to eliminate 3 gen strats without severely tilting the game into the survivors favor. That leaves us with either.
-Stop designing trash can killers who are only good at defending gens.
-Nerfing CoB and Overcharge.
No one would be upset about the 1st option occurring, but the 2nd one’s a problem because assuming nothing else is added as compensation, killer will be left in a very miserable state as there’ll no good perks left for controlling gens, making playing for hooks and playing M1 killer’s completely unviable.
1 -
Actually the problem is entirely the skull merchant,
I mean what exactly does anybody expect when she has no chase power and only detection/territory threat?
If you leave your triangle to go on an M1 chase, you're screwed because of how safe maps are against M1 killers.
She has to be able to do something real in-chase and being a master at Em-Wun Fu isn't going to cut it.
For real, Deja Vu is an anti 3-gen perk.
0 -
Interesting, weren’t you the one that insisted Eruption was the problem and that “CoB and Overcharge aren’t in the same stratosphere as problematic design because they don’t give them all their time back with 0 counterplay”?
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
Pop isn’t necessarily bad but is laughably outclassed by Pain resonance. 15% total is better than 20% current in most cases and you don’t even have to kick the gen (Plus it’s synergy with Dead man’s switch)
2 -
Yeah, I agree. Pop isn't bad, there's just a lot of better options.
I do think it's weird that people don't run it with CoB/Overcharge tho. It has decent synergy with them.
0 -
It takes awhile for CoB+OC to do anything meaningful. So unless the killer sits there staring (in which case you have free rein on the other gens), just tap it when they leave. Literally sit on gen until the killer comes, then run away. Killer wastes time kicking the gen. If the killer continues chasing, you've got a massive head start, if not you just go back and tap the gen. This strat relies entirely on survivors being scared of the killer for some reason and hiding instead of doing gens.
Skull Merchant's drones are terrible. It doesn't slow repair speed, so the only reason to kill the drone is to avoid exposed, but that doesn't matter if you run DH. The killer knowing where you are is irrelevant because there's 4 survivors and no killer can pressure everyone all at once.
1 -
Then the devs need to buff those killers. Gen perks shouldn't stack in my opinion.
4 -
In response to @Phasmamain, @Brokenbones
Okay so I just tried holding down 3 gens. So I was on a new map and the survivors landed 3 Dead Hard before I got my first hook. So I was like well fug that, so I started patrolling gens, kicking (without any gen reduction perks), sooner or later all the pallets on one side of the map was gone and they were picked out slowly one after one.
It was surprisingly easy, the Survivor team didnt know what to do for sure, idk if bHVR can tell us what they were supposed to do.
But I ended up with a 3K.
Itsreally powerful, but really boring for me, then again getting DeadHardDenied is also boring, so it was either plague or cholera.
1 -
Thanks for taking the time to try it for yourself, I appreciate that a lot
It really is just a war of attrition if you play like this.
4 -
bHVR should put SOMETHING in the Survivor HUD that helps with dealing with 3Gens.
Something that informs the other survivors of whats happening.
Skull merchant is really really good at 3gens, and SoloQ survivors are not. But many Killers can do 3Gens if they are bad chaser.
I think @Phasmamain is right, Skull merchant is just the latest offender, this is a problem SoloQ'ers need help to identify and have a strategy to do about.
0 -
Why not just add basic specific in-game messages like Identity V has? You can even let people pick out a perk they have and send a message like "I have Kinship!". Would fix the issue with perks like Kinship and counter camping + tunneling.
If you're worried about spam, add a cooldown. Simple.
0 -
perhaps. I think you are right that SoloQs need to transmit what perks they use to their teammates in other ways than looking at tally screen.
0 -
Mostly call of brine /overcharge /nowhere to hide/jolt /eruption /save the best for last and on different combinations,, they just patrol their 3 gens while droning up, refusing to even chase a tile away
0 -
Fair points especially in regards to maps. Haddonfield is ridiculously easy to camp a 3 gen on.
Merchant’s power excels at holding a 3 gen but I’d still argue knight and p,ague are worse offenders if used well
0 -
If SM was any good outside of holding 3 gens that would as much of an issue. Wesker was released into this meta as well and people don't camp 3 gens with him over anything else.
Though CoB + Overcharge are a problem. The 2 strongest regression perks only work to their full potential when the killer camps a 3 gen. With Pop you would regress bunch of progress at once and had no need to stay in the area so that survivors can't touch the gen to stop the regression and you needed a hook to activate the perk. Ruin only worked when you could pressure people away from gens. Both of these perks forced the killer to chase and down survivors and would reward them in return.
CoB + Overcharge do the exact opposite. They force the killer to not commit to chases outside of the selected 3 gen. I don't think simply nerfing these perks is the way to go though. Without them the only 2 options left are Pain Res (not as reliable) and Surge / Jolt (isn't good on all killers). I would like to see them reworked to incentivise chasing and hooking.
I think the solution isn't to only bring back old Ruin and Pop but instead creating more perks like these and limitting their synergy. For example a gen could not lose more than ~31% in 10 seconds (old Pop + gen kick + 10s regression).
0
