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Giving up against Merchant doesn't prove anything
I play Merchant and I keep getting players that give up 4/3 gens in.
Just gonna say this: her three-gen strat isn't as powerful as you think. If there's 2 survivors left than yeah it's nearly impossible. Any more survivors than that can have one loop/distract her. If she comes back to proxy gens, she technically isnt making progress by downing survivors.
Long story short, it's a skill issue. Not a design one.
Comments
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my guess is that a lot of players are really not interested in playing a 45-minute slog-fest trying to crack a three gen. Repair, get hit, run to other side of map (because killer won’t chase outside of 3-gen), get healed, repeat. I’ve been in matches like this and they make me want to hit the “leave match” button
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Exactly this. It isn’t a skill issue nor does it take skill for her to maintain the 3 gen. It’s very boring all the way around. After 20 minutes it’s like okay just kill us.
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All matches don't take 45 minutes.
They don't take 10 either, but those are too short for most killers.
I'm finding a game that focuses more on what generator to do at what moment to get it done far more fun than which tile to loop around and for how long.
I don't know why they DC, too rigid in their approach?
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Even if I wanted to give up against her I can't because I've only played against 1 Skull Merchant since her release. Haven't seen her at all since day 1.
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She's been pretty popular for me.
Maybe 1/4 of all matches in the last 24 hours.
Its not Wesker popular, but not absent.
I'm coming to look forward to games against her.
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No it's definitely a design issue. It is a skill issue to give up but pretending a competent killer hold a 3 gen with her power isn't a design flaw is wild
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Not sure in what universe you live in if you think her 3 gen is not as strong as it seems. Her camping ability is arguably much stronger than knight even.
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Nothing is stopping me from escaping against Merch I'd just rather have a more engaging game than try to provoke the killer to leave the 3 gen strat to actually chase me to not have a 30 minute game. The only thing keeping me in that game is how much I value my time at that moment and spite.
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You're expecting more coordination than solos have, especially when Skull Merchant's power combines gloriously with CoB/Overcharge because you can't immediately go back and tap the gen - she knows about it and you'll get oneshot. So she constantly eats chunks off gens, making divide and conquer that much more difficult.
I disapprove of survivors giving up, but I absolutely understand why they're doing it. Cracking her 3-gen is miserable. It's like the old Thana Legion and Forever Freddy - you can win, but you won't have any fun doing it and all you want is for the match to be over.
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That's the issue with this strategy. That if they refuse to chase anyone, you can stay at a stalemate until the game force-kicks you out. And no one wants to play a game of gen tippy-tappy for an hour. Even if her winrate was literally 0% no one would want to play against her regardless.
You can call it a skill issue all you want, but no one logs in to this game to spend the next hour sweating like this is an e-sports. Why do you think people would rather d/c and go through the penalty rather than doing that.
As much as you guys think everyone's here to pr0 gamer stratz and ridicule the other side, people just play because the core of the game is fun. What the Skull Merchant brings to the table isn't.
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They just need to work on 2 gens at the same time. She cannot pressure both, if she injures you and goes to the other one that is being done, the injured can comeback to the gen.
Maybe I'm asking too much for the average survivor.
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The thing that makes it self-sustaining is how CoB/Overcharge interacts with her power. She kicks the gen and sets up a drone. Normally, you counter CoB/Overcharge by returning to the gen ASAP. But with her, if you immediately dive in to tap the gen or disable the drone, she's right there and her power tells you you're there, so she comes back instantly, hits you, and kicks it again. If you wait a few seconds and then ignore the drone, she will come back, Undetectable, and oneshot you. So you're forced to wait, disable the drone, and get maybe ten seconds of repair on the gen before she comes back and repeats the whole process. And in that waiting, the jacked-up regression from those perks deletes a greater or equal amount of gen progress than what you just put into it. Hence, stalemate. It's probably easier if you coordinate, but I'm a solo and I can't make my teammates even stay in the game, much less handle things effectively.
What also hurts is that she can easily stake out a tight 3-gen from the start of the game (especially in solo, where people will just do whatever gens look easiest, but she can force the issue pretty hard even when survivors are trying to crack it early) where the travel time between gens is so short that pulling her around between gens isn't enough to get significant repair time in. If she refuses to chase anyone, you're stuck.
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I've had people give up on a 2 gen before as legion even though there was another gen miles away.
They just stubbornly tried to finish those 2 until they gave up.
I'm not saying SM doesn't need work but this is an example that the survivor mentality can also be to blame. I do play both BTW.
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How is her camping stronger? The drones deactivate if they are near a hook.
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If this is truly the problem, then the answer is simply making the killer more deadly on these scenarios. She is actually so bad rn you basically hinge on the 3 gen gameplay that is just as boring on the killer side and even then doesn’t even guarantee a 2K because the attrition is still in survivors favor here unless somehow you’ve already gotten two kills by this point. If those gens are done, you might as well go stare at a wall tho.
IMO make expose baseline faster so Survivors are essentially forced to deal with it, but exposes have greater potential for effecting a match(alternatively no longer show borders of zones to survivors, make them pay attention to their tracked meter), in exchange make it so drones have an actual cooldown so they can’t just be insta spammed once they go down, I don’t like it but it’s the compromise it would need imo.
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There's no way to loop/distract her because a 3-gen killer isn't leaving their 3-gen. That's the point.
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I just had a match against skull merchant that I was happy to give up after 20 minutes. There was a clear line on the map from the game start that she wasn't going to pass. At one point we got one of the 3 gens at about 50%, but that was as close as we got. We were pretty organized for a soloQ - we tried different strategies, such as taking out the drones, ignoring them, etc. If we'd been a SWF maybe, we wasted a lot more time trying to find each other for heals than a SWF would have and it was never clear which of the gens we were attacking.
I stuck around until one of the other survivors gave up, I wasn't going to abandon my team as long as they were willing to play, but once one did I was happy to get out of the game.
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it's not about how strong it is i rather not waste 40 minutes of my time slowly picking away at a 3 gen
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I find it funny that people complain about 40 minutes match when a survivor match ends right when he dies on hook
so instead of keeping running and hiding for 40 minutes in a match just go for the generator, if the merchant comes after you, loop her, if she doesn't, then just die trying to do the generator...
It's not only the merchant that holds your matches for 40 minutes, you hold your match for 40 minutes too.
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The forums are full of people saying that after having a couple long matches like that they're no longer going to play through it and yes, they are going to just let themselves die. The problem is that most people play video games to attempt to win, not to get so bored they'd rather lose and move on. But that is what we're seeing, a lot of players who'd rather quickly lose than have a long drawn-out win.
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1: This assumes she engages in the loop. Doesn't work the same if you go, she chases, retreats, kicks, repeat. Sure as survivors you can win via slowly making progress, but what people are saying is its just not worth the time. Especially in soloQ were its a lot harder to coordinate breaking the 3 gen.
2: Go to gen, die. Yeah, that's the giving up people are talking about.
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Another “compromise “ that would end up screwing the killer. Typical forum post.
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I think it proves people hate being trapped in a hour long battle of attrition.
I'd rather play against Array than have to play against SM.
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not really, I was clear about what I said, you didn't want to understand it
1: she has to engage in loop or down you at the generator, she'll have to hook or slug you (hey, isn't that a game strategy?) which you'll die either way.
I was clearly talking about a match that's going on for TOO LONG.
If you don't want to stay in that match, there's nothing the killer can do you keep you there, IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE.
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not really, I was clear about what I said, you didn't want to understand itI still don't but I'm open to learning, but I feel like you're in the wrong thread.
OP, as a skull merchant, complains about people leaving the game and not fighting against the 3 gen.
Multiple people say they don't want to be in 40 minute matches and go ahead and die, explaining to the OP they share the desire to not get stuck into long 3 gen games.
You then post:
I find it funny that people complain about 40 minutes match when a survivor match ends right when he dies on hookso instead of keeping running and hiding for 40 minutes in a match just go for the generator, if the merchant comes after you, loop her, if she doesn't, then just die trying to do the generator...It's not only the merchant that holds your matches for 40 minutes, you hold your match for 40 minutes too.Many people have already said they take the die option rather than play out a 40 minute match. It's not 'I got stuck in a 40 minute match, that sucks' it's 'I don't want to get stuck in a 40 minute match so I let her kill me, that sucks'
Do you not understand why people would complain about that as a game design?
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The OP is literally complaining about people giving up. I'm seeing more and more comments along the lines of 'survivors are keeping themselves in these long games just as much as killers,' which leads me to assume some popular content creator has developed that take because it's usually what's happened when everyone starts parroting the same line. But giving up is literally what survivors *are* doing in this situation, and then people come here complaining about it.
Killer mains: if you dont want to be stuck in a long game then just give up, the killer isnt keeping you there.
Also killer mains: don't give up because then I can't enjoy this killer
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You can't bait her out unless she lets you. If she lets you then she probably doesn't want to play that 3-gen anymore in that case.
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Gonna keep giving up against her until something changes. People pretending like these long games are rare is the most baffling to me. Nearly every SM I have played against uses the three gen strat. It's just a waste of time to sit in one game for 30-40 minutes. I get absolutely nothing for staying in a game like this. Impressing randoms on the forum by sitting through these horrible games doesn't mean anything to me. I'm not losing any sleep over someone I don't know thinking less of me.
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I don’t blame you. I’ve already had my fill of these long drawn out stalemates. If a game gets too long, I just walk over and let them hook me so I can move on. It’s getting so bad that with 2 gens left, you can already tell what is about to happen. If they refuse to chase and gens can’t get done, not sure what people are supposed to do other than give up.
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For the most part, I agree. To avoid a 3 gen scenario survivors need to have a certain degree of planning and all too often many survivors will just want to gen rush without thinking of the potential consequences.
Up until now - especially against a killer such as the Trapper - it's vital to deal with the gens that are closest together early to avoid such a difficult endgame.
My only rebuttal for your argument is that, should the Skull Merchant locate the 3 gens closest to each other early on, her power is more effective than the Trapper at keeping them secure. The drones ensure that a survivor has limited time to work on them, which is something a killer such as the Trapper doesn't have in the early game.
The Skull Merchant has only just come out and, when survivors learn to play with more of a strategy in mind, she'll become easier to face. I still remember when the Dredge first came out and some people declared it was the new Nurse. That didn't happen. Let's see how she is further down the line, once survivors start to effectively plan out a trial.
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but it's the truth tho and I'm not a killer main since like sep of last year, I play only survivor now and play killer just when I have a daily.
Nothing you say would change the facts, you only stay in a match if you want to, it's not the type of game where you have to wait for everyone to die to leave. It's a simple problem with a simple solution, if you call that giving up, whatever, but IF YOU LET HER HAVE HER 3 GEN, that's your mistake and if she REFRAINS HERSELF FROM THE NORMAL GAMEPLAY (CHASE-DOWN-HOOK) it's her game, you lost already, why keep playing hide (with no seek) for 40 minutes? That's YOUR GAME.
FOCUS ON THE 40 MINUTES ARGUMENT!!!
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"Any more survivors than that can have one loop/distract her. If she comes back to proxy gens, she technically isnt making progress by downing survivors."
This part makes 0 sense.
First of all, Survivors distracting her only works when the Killer actually wants to get distracted. Most of the time a 3-Gen camping Killer drops the chase quickly to go back to the 3-Gen. And while this does not mean that they can down Survivors, they will at least get rid of ressources which eventually will help to down Survivors. You can be the best Survivor player, but you wont be able to do anything without ressources.
And well, a 3-Gen camping Skull Merchant just means that you will have a game of 40+ minutes without much fun, because you dont really get into a chase with her, since she is just protecting her 3-Gen. And while you will probably get a lot of BPs, you will get even more if you just go to the next games - you can probably get 3 games done instead of trying to break her 3-Gen.
I cannot really blame Survivors who dont want to spend their evening in a 3-Gen game. And I dont even know why Killers are so upset about it, I thought their 4K is sooo important that they even play in one of the most unfun and boring ways (not chasing and just protecting a 3-Gen), so a Survivor giving up will just help with that.
The Devs really need to clarify the rules on 3-Gens. Because Survivors refusing to do Gens is clearly taking the game hostage, but a Killer refusing to chase Survivors at some point and just protecting 3 Gens without much intention to kill anyone is the same.
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no it isn't a skill issue when im solo and the randoms die and get hook inside the 3 gen area ,it isn't skill issue when game lasts 20/ 25 + minutes it's super boring and grindy,,,you never want to be in the same game for that long ,,i'd rather get a godlike nurse to mop the floor with my face rather than face a boring 3 gen bot killer who makes watching paint dry seem exciting ,,
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I tried to give it a chance, but any half-competent SM makes the game grind to a halt. I play solo-queue only. Everyone is saying "oh just run Deja Vu, Potential Energy, BNP's, Toolboxes, etc."
If we need to run a specific build just to have a chance at escaping a single killer, there is a serious problem.
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Keep telling yourself that. No one wants to play 4 gen regression gen-humping Gen Merchant, who refuses to chase unless you are within the radius of her babysitting drones. I've watched really good players go against this lady with a 3 gen from the start and draw the game out for 45mins. The only reason they won is because the killer wasn't very good in chase. But the fact that a skill-less killer can draw a game out to 45 mins IS a skill issue I guess. Personally, I'm not entertaining any games with three genning Gen Merchant. If they want to win so bad. Have at it. The devs were told during PTB that this is the way she would be played and released her anyway. Honestly, this game is getting old fast.
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Your point is actually valid, however I'm not even playing CoB/Overcharge and still find a lot of survivors to just give up, which let me think that there is a lack of adaptability overall.
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The Devs really need to clarify the rules on 3-Gens. Because Survivors refusing to do Gens is clearly taking the game hostage, but a Killer refusing to chase Survivors at some point and just protecting 3 Gens without much intention to kill anyone is the same.
The problem is this:
a Killer refusing to chase Survivors at some point
What is "at some point"? Is it a Killer refusing to go after the only injured Survivor when three others are hiding nearby, waiting for them to leave? I'd say it's fair once all four are injured and the Killer refuses to go after any of them then, but what if one of the four Survivors heals before there are four injured and thus "permitting" the Killer to stay near the 3-gen? Is the Survivor that healed then holding the game hostage for the other three Survivors? What if a Trapper wants to only leave the 3-gen once all the traps are set up and not before then, is that allowed? What if a Survivor keeps disarming them, giving them an excuse to stay near the gens?
Instead of making up a new rule / policy to deal with the many edge cases this will cause it's better to fix this in the code. Add a way to the game that allows Survivors to break a 3-gen stalemate if the Killer refuses to leave. For example, if two Survivors are trying to open the exit gates at the same time they open after Remaining Generators * X minutes but their aura is revealed to the Killer (which would also work if there are four generators very close together). Something that only works if the Killer is refusing to leave a 3-gen but is useless in any other situation to avoid the "DEVS ARE SURVIVOR BIASED UNINSTALL" shitstorm.
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The thing is, there are two versions of 3-Gens:
One is the problematic one which is done with Skull Merchant - just defending 3 Gens, sometimes even with a Map Offering (The Game or RPD for example) and not chasing any Survivors even at 5 Gens to go.
The other one is not problematic - the Survivors messed up and created a 3-Gen. (All Gens done on one side of the Map, Survivers not paying attention and just doing the first Gen they find)... While this can result in the same outcome (a match taking long), this is something which is the Survivors fault and the Killer should still get a benefit from it without the Survivors being able to fix their mistake.
And your suggestion might mean that the Survivors only have to repair 4 Gens and can just idle around a bit and leave afterwards.
So if there is a rule implemented, it could mention 3-Gens which are done very early in the game (in the end, you have to provide a video anyway when reporting a player, so the Devs would see if the Killer was actually doing it from the start or just saw the opportunity midgame and went for it).
Otherwise, if it is possible to create an ingame-solution (because a Report does not help that one game which is currently played), I am all for it. But it should only really work if the Killer is holding a 3-Gen from the start and not when the Survivors messed up.
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The entitled ragequitting demographic you’re trying to reason with, does not frequent these forums. They don’t even have their driver’s license yet.
Every time they ragequit, look at their profile and observe the game they switched to: Fortnite.
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Nice, but I will still give up to her
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I would like to continue.
- 3 Gens that survivors created, usually Killers have a few hooks through the match, with 3 Gens, there are times that Killers lucky quick injure a last hook survivor, then commit the chase to kill. Sometimes the time to kill is before the last Gen done, which Killer can go back and continue their progress. Of course Killers may not committing chase and go back if its a non-hook survivor.
- 3 Gens Knight/SM is different, a situation when chasing a survivor have no meaning since no one gets a hook yet, so they will stay around 3 Gens refuse to commit chase. Create a scenario that no one progress, where the decision of progressing is relied on killer.
For both case, survivors still try to do the last Gen, so definitely its not their fault since they're actually try to progressing. Just impossible to do so.
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The only thing I don't like about your suggestion is that it requires people to use the awful report system. The main issue is the need to record. I think it's a great solution if we had a replay system and when you make an in-game report someone from support could just pull up that replay and see that what you described is going on and handle the reported player from there.
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The moment her PTB came out most of the community rolled their eyes and sighed because we knew what kind of killer she was and that isn't fun. When there is only 1 way to play her that's zzzz.
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I won't play a single game vs SM, never... Tell me whatever.
Nuff said.
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Knight and skull merchant are some of the worst campers in the game wdym? And her 3 gen isn’t as good as knight since she can’t actually hit anyone or apply pressure without leaving the 3gen area
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They have stated in the past that a killer who defends a 3 gen with their power and perks, without downing, hooking, or killing anyone for a long time is taking the game hostage and is reportable.
Essentially it boils down to: killers primary objective is to 'kill survivors', and 'gen defense' is a secondary objective to help with kills.
With a 'normal' 3 gen, the killer is banking on using up resources and capitalizing on a survivor making a mistake for the down, which might take a few minutes, but there should be mind games involved and some randomness to aid with the goal of getting a down.
But... holding a 3 gen indefinitely, doing the same patrol, and never taking any chase whatsoever becomes problematic. In that case, the 'killing' objective has become secondary and 'gen defense' has become the primary goal, and the game doesn't progress.
Same thing with survivors. 'Surviving' and 'completing gens' are both goals, but hiding for an extended amount of time without touching gens at all sacrifices the 'gens' objective and 100% focuses on surviving. Hiding can be a good strategy, too, but at some point, survivors need to take risks or the game can't progress.
There's some nuance to the timing with how long this lasts, usually a 'few minutes' is ok, but hitting 30+ minute games regularly is closer to 'hostage' territory.
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Yeah but its clearly that devs balances around complaints not by skill issues
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We warned BHVR that this is how SM would be played when her PTB came out, and instead of changing her kit to not be 3-gen central, they just released her with some tiny buffs
SM matches are the one and only time I will excuse DCing or hook suicides, I'd rather take the penalty and move on to a match where there's actual interactions and not 45 minutes to several hours of trying to break a 3 gen
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This guy gets it.
Its your own fault, survivors just give up and die on hook so the killer is not forced to drag the game out for 40 minutes for his 4k.
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