lets discuss closing the gap between solos and swf is talked about but what about killers?

You could do several things to make Trapper-kun at least viable and more fun to play.

1) and this is a no-brainer, the thin grass should be replaced with thicc grass on all maps.

2) let him start with 3 traps, but maybe leave the max at 2 once he placed those traps down, ie he starts with 3, but can't pick any traps up unless he is at 0 or 1 trap, up to a max of 2.

3) let all the traps start in rather beneficial spots and already primed, as if Trapper had already stalked out the map. Like around shack corners, under windows or on the tipping point of loops.

4) the traps should automatically match the environment somewhat. Especially on the Eiry the traps stick out so much that Trapper is basically playing without a power.

5) disarming a trap shouldn't be just a couple of seconds timewaster thats for free, it should at least involve a skill check with the possibility of getting wounded and/or trapped.

6) give Trapper-kun some kind of magical retrieval mechanic. I know that he is supposed to be a non-mystical slasher killer, but he has fallen so much behind and in todays day and age he has no time to run around the far corners of the map to pick up a map, so "the Trapper can target any trap and press the second ability button to magically pick that trap up. This ability has a 90s cooldown."

I fully believe that with this changes Trapper would be much more fun to play and would still be far from OP or oppressive, but at least our power boi would see finally some more play. Right now he is so miserable to play on most maps.

Make bloodlust exclusive trait of m1 killers, anti-loop killers don't need that, they are already strong and should rely on their powers instead of w-gaming

that's your buff

So, making this basekit for M1 Killers will prevent them from getting extra chase changes, and force them to boringly trail behind a Survivor, begging for hits.

Or do you think Killers can "mindgame" most tiles? Open tiles like the center of Blood Lodge say "hello", plus standing in optimal spots with 3rd person camera as Survivor to deny any and all mindgames.

Without any kind of anti-loop, M1 Killers ARE reliant on mistakes or altruism to get things done. If Survivors know what to do, they can consistently do long chases against these Killers... which result in losses. It's why Nurse and Blight are meta.

Friend, I did not mention the Tombstone. But now that you did, I'll say it's an outdated mechanic as well. At least the Tombstone Piece shouldn't exist in it's current form. Tombstone is more or less fine. It's pretty obvious when it's in the game so there is some counterplay to it.

You make it sound like the Tombstone addons have the same effect as Thanatophobia. "Get hit and slow your team down." But it's more like "Get hit and instantly die." At least the Tombstone Piece has to go eventually. You can instantly kill one person at 5 gens remaining.

By the way you're completely missing the point. I said Michael Myers in his current state doesn't fit into the game anymore. He is outdated. A great early game for him is still a bad early game for any other killer. His tier 3 isn't all that powerful, if you can't use it to snow ball and at some point his power will literally run out. His faster vault is becoming increasingly more worthless because most maps are so stacked with pallets that he can't really capitalize on it anyway. His tier 1 is the worst debuff to a killer immaginable. He's undetetable but moves at 105%. That might be useful on Lery's and Midwich but then you get sent to Ormont against a group that knows what they're doing. He needs a rework. His base kit and addons should be looked at.

You said "Myers is outdated" and how he was made for 2017 DBD. People who say that almost always have Tombstone in mind. Either that, or they mean his power. Sometimes both.

And no, it really doesn't have the same effect, Thana is a weak perk only good on certain killers while Myers add-ons can allow for a new way of eliminating Survivors, a new threat that isn't a complete joke without very specific add-ons and perks like Sadako's condemned, and you generally get insta killed at 5 gens if your team isn't doing gens. Stop blaming the killer for your team's incompetence. This is done in many topic on the forums, and I'm sick of it.

Or alternatively, we can just buff his basekit instead of touching some of the most unique add-ons in the game, with several entire builds that can be done with this Killer. His power running out doesn't matter since at that point, the game is typically done. Myers can just run Endu+Fury if that's an issue.

-"what are your thoughts?"

There are two fair killers in DBD: Nurse/Blight. What makes them fair?

These two killers have a complete kit.

1. They traverse the map quickly at all times (not some of the time)
2. They have strong anti loop
3. They are lethal in chase.
4. Because they have all of the above they generate 4v1 pressure without some silly mechanic like a pig mask or a box.

Let's look at a killer like Trapper. How do you make Trapper no less than 15% weaker than Nurse?

1. He needs a way to move faster; in addition all maps would need to be 9000m² or he cant play maps larger than that.
2. His traps would need to be far more punishing.
3. You would need to Nerf the hell out of Nurse/Blight
4. Every killer that isn't Nurse/Blight gets massive buffs

What would each of those look like?

1. You could make trapper move at 120% speed. If we did this to all non teleporting/non movement speed killers it would radically change the game. Suddenly you would need to pre-drop against every killer the first time around a loop because the spacing is wrong. Even at 120% speed there is no way in hell you could try to play a giant map vs efficient players.
2. Trapper would need to start with 4 traps in hand and the rest would be in the middle of the map in an "X" pattern (not on the map edges #########). Base kit he now has Bloody coil (making his traps injure on disarm) and that effect would be buffed so that disarming a trap while injured gives you a deep wound. New iri coil addons could be something like (pick one) : a) traps cannot be disarmed except by stepping in them; b) the new addon makes traps invisible to survivors except within 1m before you hit the trap effect (they start to "fade" in and become fully visible via a slider transparency effect). Bear traps would need their "2016 Suck in" ability back. In other words the bear trap would have the old bigger hitbox. Purple sack would be reworked to give the killer +2 traps in hand and +1 more trap on the map somewhere near mid (maybe middle of the X).
3. The only "buildup" killers in the game should be Nurse/Blight. Nurse starts with 1 blink. Blight starts with 2 charges. Getting a hit with your power or a regular attack gives you +1 blink/ +2 charges. Furthermore Blight loses hug tech (already planned and in the works) and can no longer break pallets with his power. Blight becomes 110% movement speed. Most of Blight's addons get gutted. Alchemist Ring is completely reworked. Adrenaline vial gives -2 charges instead of +2 charges. Compound 21 is completely reworked - maybe to something like you see the aura of any survivor within 6m of your bounce and all survivors see your aura if inside your terror radius). All killers will wipe their weapon after a successful attack (does not include Trickster, Trapper with beartraps, Nemesis zombies and Plague spit). A new animation is added for Huntress when she lands a M2 attack where she juggles a hatchet momentarily. Upon hitting with her power Nurse will wipe her weapon and then go into fatigue.
4. Killers that are not Nurse/Blight should get 8 perk slots instead of 4 perk slots. If that is considered too extreme then Deadlock becomes base kit for everyone and a "rollback" effect is added so that completing two generators at the same time rolls one back to 99% with the block effect (perk is reworked to extend the effect by +30 seconds ). Shattered Hope would be reworked if the inferior killers were only getting 2 perk slots. Without the perk the killer can kick totems to break them at any time ; this also extends to boons but the killer has the option to break the bones in a second action after or not. Hexes get reworked so that they can be re-lit unless all bones are destroyed (note that Devour Hope would have its tokens reset when rekindled). Taking the Shattered Hope perk would destroy a survivor's boon perks upon kicking that boon; remove the arua reading nonsense and make that survivor play the rest of the game broken. Brutal Strength is reworked to add: once per 60 seconds your lunge attack will break a dropped pallet. A new perk is added - let's call it entity's insurance : Kicking a generator prevents the generator from being touched for 20 seconds and prevents the "workable" state. Furthermore gens continue to regress while blocked by the killer (would not work for repressed alliance). New Perk is added -Gen hard: once per game you can press "E" on a generator of your choice before it is completed. If that generator is completed it reverts to the "off" state and becomes inert for the rest of the game (cannot be completed). New game rule : Hitting a survivor with an attack (something to make you lose PWYF stacks)

Ts Myers is about as fun as getting gen rush. You just roll your eyes and go to the next match.

It's a quote taken directly from one of their streams.

When Freddy had been marked for nerfing he had a 4% higher kill rate. This is a fact that was also given to us by a lovely little bar graph. He had something like a 63 or 64% kill rate when all the other killers were mostly around 57-59% lethality.

If we go back in time the rhetoric about SWF from 2016-2020 was roughly something like : "SWF gives no advantage because people playing in a group are more altruistic; this evens out any possible advantage."

In late 2021 or 2022 we had the "oops our bad" moment where they looked at data and determined that SWF had upto a 15% increase in escape rate. So they did the smart thing and nerfed SWF. Oh wait no they didn't do that.... they buffed solo queue players with no compensation for the killer.

This most likely just reinforced the need for killers to tunnel more; although to be honest I can't be tunneling more if I was already hard tunneling the first player hooked out of the game every time before the hud changes.

Why would you nerf a killer if the goal is to match all killers to the newly buffed survivor minimum and maximum potential?

Just buff the weaker killers.

It's a laughable notion to recursively buff survivor to match survivor+comms+teamplay ( survivor is part of survivor+comms+teamplay) and then decide to nerf the top killers. Survivors gets their minimum and maximum potential buffed and killer gets the minimum raised but the maximum lowered?

"Dont ask me for evidence, go waste your life looking for evidence yourself"

ok dude.

How many pallets are there on "the game" map? The answer is 25; this is a known answer by the DBD community.

How much of an advantage did SWF groups have over solo players? This is a known answer given to us by the developers and was stated to be up to a 15% advantage.

You asked what was the source. I said the developers. You asked when - I don't have that answer for you.

No I asked you to show me the Quote. You said it was a quote. Just say if you dont want to demonstrate or back up what you say.

Tombstone Myers will get clapped by gen rushers, I remember being super confident but then a good team ran me to hell and I didn’t get a single kill.

Plus tombstone Myers takes a super long time to actually get that 1 hit kill, by the time he gets Evil Within3 like at least 3-4 generators will have been completed. If you want to do anything else but stalking you probably won’t even reach Evil Within3 in time to be effective.

Literally all you have to do is look around actively to make sure he’s not watching you from afar, if he is just run away and obscure yourself. Even if he has reached Evil Within3 all you have to do is hide in a locker and be sneaky.

I don't want tunneling removed just nerfed and killers buffed enough to win spreading bit of hooks. Like for example targeting 2 survivors or spreading hooks but targeting one player over others. Good balance would be that killer kills first survivor 5-6th hook. That should be most viable strat. Now you could still tunnel but it would be just less effient.

8 hooking before finishing anyone off for example should never be the most viable and should be just to show skill expression or killer being friendly. I think before ds nerf 5-6 hooks before first kill was most viable strat as it bought so much time for survivors. So I think ds stun nerf should be reverted.

Also pop goes to weasel promoted leaving hook to chase others. I think it should buffed back to take 20% from total progress. Gens could be increased to 100s from starters and mini grim embrace or deadlock should be added as basekit. Each killer should be looked at and buffed if needed. Oni for example just needs a way to get that first hit faster so he could be buffed to 120% movement speed.

A lot of the killers in the game are just weak due to the design of their kit. If you make trickster or clown A tier somehow they are going to be absolutely awful to play against. It has to be map design changes, anything else will just make way too many killers unfun to play against.

It's not nearly as that simple and the actual world what you're looking here is gen rushing. It's problem but it's not only reason why tunneling happens. Otherwise you would not see killers tunneling 5 gens remaining.

Still probably half of the killers don't tunnel often and are still able to win. Tunneling simply is most easiest and best strat to win and that's why it mostly happens. Even if gens take 200s those killers who tunnel would still tunnel.

That's why tunneling should be nerfed and make other strats more viable which I suggested taking first survivor out as you're 5-6th hook. Game would not have to be changed radically for that as this is already very common strat. But it just needs to be bit more viable.

Tunneling still has place in the game and can be never entirely removed and it should not but just with some changes it would be less common. So then when killer chooses to tunnel he can end up losing the game instead if he would went after different target and won.

From all the killers yes Oni needs buff good survivors pre drop every pallet and he is just m1 killer without any antiloop. So buff to get him that first hit would help him to be viable in highest mmr. I would think you understand. In low and middle mmr he gets hit immediatelly anyway so it would not be problem. And if 120% movement speed would be too much it could disable after he uses his power first time.

Bloodlust exists because the maps are unfairly balanced and bloodlust is the design fix to remedy that. If you don't understand why the game is that way then you're basically saying : lets only have Nurse and Blight be the viable killers.

I have no idea what you are saying - to the point that I feel like you are responding to the wrong message. Yes, bloodlust is useful for some killers more than others, @NerfedFreddy proposed increasing the rate it is gained for weaker killers, I'm agreeing and saying that's a good idea as a balance solution without overhauling the game. I then propose a couple of other ideas that are mix of simple and if I could redesign the whole game type ideas, which was the request of the OP.

But then you go on to say : let's make sure we have variety in killers.

Variety in killers/maps/etc is a key point of the game. DbD wouldn't have had nearly the lifespan it did without it.

What I'm saying is that people have to be realistic - variety and balance don't go together. We can discuss moving more toward balance, but there are a lot of factors people need to be aware of when having that discussion. Some of those things I believe BHVR could fix, others are inevitable components of the game.

sorry bud tombstone piece cannot and will not stay the way it is whenever myers gets an update, i don't imagine the devs are that dumb to keep it

a broken outdated addon for noobs that deletes any kind of fun or chance Survivors may have in the match

in a pvp game this cannot be allowed to stay same idea was with iri head and pinky finger and those were less bullshit addons than tombstone.

You replied very positively to someone that said :

"Make bloodlust exclusive trait of m1 killers, anti-loop killers don't need that, they are already strong and should rely on their powers instead of w-gaming"

Overall this statement is foolish. Bloodlust is a "leftover" mechanism because DBD has no real balance when it comes to allowing Tile A to be next to Tile B. Scot Jund's dream patch notes suggested making it so that tiles cannot be turned a certain way when next to each other or better yet certain tiles are not allowed to be next to each other.

As an example imagine a shack with the window facing out into a jungle gym so you can go from shack to the gym with the same angle vault. That is a broken tile unless the killer is Nurse, the killer has bamboozle or there is a beartrap on one of those windows. We could make this example worse by having that jungle gym connect to an L/T wall after. You could run this for 2-3 minutes before getting hit once.

Now imagine Shack with the window facing the opposite direction. The next tile over is a filler pallet and the next tile over is a L/T wall. This setup represents a far better balanced map. You have very workable tiles but they become worthless when the pallets are gone.

The first tile is only "fair" if you have prepared for unfair maps. The second tile is fair for nearly every killer in the game. If every tile placement were more like the second then we could remove bloodlust.

"What I'm saying is that people have to be realistic - variety and balance don't go together."

It's very realistic to either limit the MMR of all killers based on their skill cap OR it's very realistic to buff all the killers to be within 15% power level of nurse. Imagine for example if Trapper had a soft MMR cap of 1200. If you keep winning you can go over that value up to a hard cap of 1500. No matter how often you win at 1500 you can't break the 1600 MMR cap. That might represent a scenario where playing trapper is "fair".

The reality is that the best trapper in the world is irrelevant when compared to an "ok" nurse player. This is a reflection of poor balance/bad design.

Trapper could very easily be put into the "A" tier.

1. Make Bloody coil base kit. Buff this effect to give deep wounds to a wounded player disarming a trap.
2. Make the trapper start with 4 traps in hand and put the remaining 4 in the middle of the map in an "X" pattern.
3. Make trapper move at 120% move speed (give this buff to all killers without a movement or teleport power).
4. Rework purple sack to be +2 traps in hand and +1 trap on the map (in the center of the X)
5. Replace Bloody coil iri addon with a new addon of one of the following effects : A) Traps cannot be disarmed without a tool kit or Sabotage; otherwise - you must step in them to disarm them. B) Traps are invisible until you are 1m from their hitbox radius. From 1m they slowly "fade in".