lets discuss why are people dodging lobbies?
You might find easier matches doing so for now but that doesn't fix the game in the long run...let bhvr collect their data so the game can get balanced.
have you no empathy for that poor new killer who has just 10 hours in the game and gets thrown into that swf group with more than 5000 hours between them?
it is getting to the point that we are bleeding the new player base and they won't stick around(we still should have had the numbers from the first resident evil dlc but that dwindled).
So what are your thoughts on lobby dodging?
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I don’t know how BHVR collecting more data is going to balance the game. They have all the data they need and haven’t been able (or willing) to do it. Most killers dodge lobbies because of suspected SWF groups. Unless BHVR does something to nerf SWF which has a huge unfair advantage with ability to communicate info on comms then killers are going to continue dodging it and I don’t blame them.
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Killers just like to cherrypick their lobbies. They want the easiest lobby, at best 4 Solos with under 500 hours each.
I mean, there is a Killer Main-Streamer with 13k hours and this person is also lobbydodging quite a lot. With 13k hours, even as Nurse with a strong Build.
It is not only new Killer players who dodge. But since Killers think that playing in an SWF turns 4 Potatoes into a tournament squad, they dodge SWFs...
Even tho, the main benefit of SWF is not communication, it is to filter out bad Survivors. THis goes for the really good SWFs, but should not be a thing for casual SWFs, since those also consist of bad players. And those casual SWFs are probably 99% of SWFs you will encounter.
And when it comes to a good SWF.. Those would probably beat the Killer when they are all Solo.
In general, all names and profiles should be hidden in the Lobby. Gameplay-wise there is 0 reason to show them. And I highly dislike Killers cherrypicking their Lobby until they find one which is easy enough for them. But since Dedicated Servers the Survivors dont get kicked out of the Lobby anymore, so I dont care that much anymore. It is just sad that players go through so many Lobbies for the most stupid reasons you can imagine, but whatever, if they like...
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Because they're afraid of losing.
That's really what it boils down to. People dislike losing and will do whatever they can to ensure that they get an easier game.
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This. They're afraid of that and challenging themselves as well.
You win some, you lose some, it's no big deal but Pulsar is right, they just don't want to risk losing.
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Do you actually envision a situation where mid-lower high MMR killers are responsible for dumping teams on new killers and driving them from the game?
Do you really think this is actually a player issue?
Do you honestly think it can be solved via the tactics that have failed to solve tunneling and camping as in soft shamming killers to step up to your expectations?
...
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So, anyways. In an attempt to be serious.
This is a gameplay issue, The player you are implying should be forced to play, does not want to play the match. For reasons. Address those reasons and progress can be made on solving this issue.
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I don't know why ...
People are not afraid of losing.
Most of us get that lose/failure is a developmental step, so its best to fail. And fail a lot.
Or Lose if you prefer that word.
Adversity and challenge make you better. Complaining on the forum to nerf a thing, makes you worse.
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I see a lot more Survivors dodging lobbies than Killers.
it's BHVR's backfill system that is throwing new players into bad matches, it's not up to the players to fix BHVR's system.
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There are a multitude of reasons why someone may dodge a lobby that have nothing to do with just "wanting an easier game" as @Pulsar and others have said. If you really wanna see mine you can look them up in his other thread where I posted several.
The games MMR is very flawed and barely works at any given time anyways, mostly because it is based on a flawed concept to begin with, but also because it doesnt consider many things it should at its base level and prioritizing queue times over quality matchmaking is problematic and a better middle ground needs to be found to achieve a better result.
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I'm not going to play survivor with multiple Claudettes in dark clothing as teammates. I've had enough of those matches to know I get tunneled out first thing because I'm the only one the killer sees and those Claudettes will never, ever leave their bushes to take aggro. No thanks. I'll also dodge a lobby if someone thinks it's cutesy to switch to my exact character and outfit.
it is getting to the point that we are bleeding the new player base and they won't stick around(we still should have had the numbers from the first resident evil dlc but that dwindled).
DbD hasn't kept new players for a long time. New customers pop up for the licensed DLC and leave because the asymmetrical gameplay isn't to their liking. There's not a big market for asymmetrical games, most people aren't going to enjoy this gameplay loop. Hell, a lot of the long-time players kind of hate the gameplay loop.
DbD was never going to keep the majority of people who came over for the Resident Evil DLC. The Stranger Things DLC had a better chance for retaining new players, and in that case the bad matchmaking actually did chase a lot of them away. I remember an influx of forum posts from new Stranger Things players who liked DbD and wanted to play but were miserable about the bad matchmaking. With the Resident Evil DLC, I saw more talk outside the forums where the Resident Evil fans just did not enjoy DbD at all and there was a lot of buyer's remorse; matchmaking wasn't talked about as much as other elements.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on1 -
unfortunately so
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how would you propose nerfing swfs?
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it is understandable if the person just wants a chill game...mmr kind of screwed things up in that regard
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true just don't know how the devs would change it...i know seperate modes have been discussed (casual/ranked) like almost any other game
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i honestly feel bad if i lobby dodge which is why i don't...guess i just have sympathy for my replacement killer and figure i will at least slap on franklins and take the items if i don't get any kills haha
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it does get tiring to get a lot of higher mmr matches in a row after a while though
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what things do you think mmr should include at base level?
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in fairness the resident evil dlc was very buggy when it first came out which might have led to buyer's remorse. it is just a worrying trend.
Honestly at this point all that is left is to give out the game as a gwg for xbox players (ps players already got this one month/epic games as well) or maybe even go to a free to play model and make money off of cosmetics
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I never dodge and survivors still whine, so it's a lose-lose.
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I only rarely lobby dodge as killer, and when I do it's not because I'm afraid of losing, it's because there are 3-4 TTVs in the lobby, and that often means some sort of meme-ing or dumb hijinks for entertainment are going to ensue. I'll take on a squad of all P100s, but I just want to play a normal game.
Also, I see lots (at least one every 2-3 lobbies) of survs bail on matches, ostensibly because they didn't like the look of the team they were grouped with, which is valid. If I load into a lobby with a bunch of base cosmetic P0s and P1s , I might bail as well.
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I agree. I always thought that the backfill system because of dodging can create bad matches and bad data. When I SWF, we get so many dodges that it's no wonder why we get paired up against players with sub-mediocre skills. I'm sure dodging has to skew the data in some way. Maybe it makes certain killers look stronger than they should be? Maybe it makes SWF appear more potent than they really are, when really a fair game would have been had if the dodger had stayed in. Who knows?
I think at this point it should be "forced" on the player in a way to play the lobby through. Not that they can't dodge for whatever reason, but I think those reasons could be muddied a little bit. They can redesign the lobby to show default skins or very hard to see skins, as if the killer is looking through some bushes and fog. Remove names and limit the view of items. Or you can go another route and give an incentive to stay in lobbies with a bonus reward for consecutive games. There are quite a bit of creative options BHVR has IF they thought lobby dodging was a big enough problem. I wish they would try something though, because improved data could affect a lot of their balance decisions, and in a better way.
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I blame the balancing of the game, not the players dodging. If the balancing was better they wouldn’t dodge.
Lobby shopping is not what I’m talking about though, I don’t agree with that. However the players avoiding unfair matches for things the game isn’t balanced for seems reasonable to me. If I’m in a 4 man swf with 4 medkits I would justifiably expect to be dodged a lot.
Not advocating for anyone to do anything, just giving my thoughts.
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People don’t like being bullied. Losing is one thing. Being constantly antagonized for it is another. I can respect being beaten by a good team, but too often they insist the Killer feels like garbage after.
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It’s not that simple. This game is so poorly balanced that it is nearly impossible to win against good survivors. Why would anyone want to play a match that will be nearly impossible to win? As Nurse, I pretty much never lobby dodge since she can hang. If I’m playing DS and load into a lobby with p80 and p100 survivors? Yea, no thanks.
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people don't like matches stacked against them before the first second of the game even begins, who'd have thought it. 4 survivors with medkits and toolboxes could be 4 silly dudes with brown stuff or it could be a swf on comms running green+ items and add-ons and bnps/styptics/etc.
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That's my reason for doing it, certainly.
I don't dodge as survivor--if I have a rotten game, then I'm out quick and can move onto a new game. If I play killer and get a non-interactive genrush squad or one running the Standard SWF Script*, then that's a whole match of not having any fun.
My general rule is that if everyone bamfs in at once, then I'm either with a SWF or I got backfilled into a group I'm wildly mismatched with. Both are cause to dodge.
* Boon goes up in the first twenty seconds, I never see anyone (because everyone's warned out of an area before I get there) except for the designated looper who'll teabag and stand still to bait me into chasing them. Dead Hard on everyone.
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Im afraid of depipping so I dodge lobbies which look good. But when im on new rank with 0 pips I never dodge.
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Yah...
Learning to do something is a difficult endeavor. Being in the right frame of mind and having the right environment around you lets you maximize your gains. If we can accept that matches that are over your head(for whatever reason) are potential learning experiences, it follows that the player needs to be able to control when these experiences occur.
In the same style of reasoning that survivors are posting about killers wanting easier matches here, consider that by dodging a lobby all you are doing is handing off a learning experience to a newer killer who is likely desperately in need of it. You're doing charity work, by dodging.
Of course that is extremely dishonest of me to phrase as such. And I know that all that will happen is the newer killer will be new game shopping sooner then they planned.
Fix the things that make people not want to play the match and these issues will be reduced in frequency.
Any other short sited thing that they do will have unintended consequences, as they always do here.
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Because BVHR doesn't balance the game at all so we have to for ourselves. We can't balance SoloQ, only Killer.
Oh, I go against the same survivors that someone like top 1% Nurse/Blight/Spirit does? Wow, that's really sweet BHVR, too bad I'm nowhere near as good as them and I don't play the broken Killers and I don't tunnel so do the math please.
Oh, what is that? I'm an M1 Killer and the 4 TTV survivors send me to Garden of Pain with each of them starting the trial with a styptic agent? Cute.
And the list goes on and on and on. People love to assume that people want easy games, but I for one want winnable games. I'm perfectly fine losing, but I'm tired of people trying to bully other people when they stacked the deck so far in their favor, it was almost impossible to lose. I never wanted to be high MMR and I absolutely ######### loathe every minute of it, but thanks to how SBMM works (and I use the word work very, very loosely) I'm propelled back the moment I go up against one of those teams that on a stream people would call paid actors. Five to six games of one or two hooks then a 4k. Very fun.
Give us a proper matchmaking and people will dodge a whole lot less.
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In my experience, if you are highly outclassed by a Killer they will quickly put you out of your misery. If you get crushed by a group of Survivors they are going to draw it out and have their fun with you.
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i applaud you for having faith in your skills as a killer ^_^
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The basis of MMR being based off just kills/escapes is a huge flaw at its core, as there are lots of actual skill elements that aren't adjusted for at all.
Build strength and synergy is a pretty big glaring one, which I will admit is difficult to adjust for because it can be changed up until the start of the match, although that could be fixed by not allowing changes or only allowing changes within your preset builds provided they are of a similar/weaker strength. This will probably require some examples.
Every single thing would have to have a base strength value, Which would be a process to determine.
Lets take Blight as an example, there is a huge difference between an alch ring + C33 Blight, and a Blight running no addons or random brown addons. This currently isnt factored into MMR.
In terms of a build lets take COB, overcharge, nowhere to hide and lethal pursuer.
Take each perk on its own, all by themselves are decent perks lets come up with a base for each perk:
COB and overcharge are basically even on their own the only real difference is one is better short term the other is better long term, so lets say each on their own is worth 50 points.
Nowhere to hide by itself is ok but not nearly as strong as COB or overcharge, so lets give this one a 20.
Lethal by itself probably falls somewhere in the middle lets call it 30 points
So put them together that would be a 150 point build. Thats no good because of perk synergy Lethal makes NWTH approximately 20% better so both need to be boosted lets say 10 points each, COB + overcharge are lets say doubly effective together making both 100 point perks, throw another 30 points on NWTH because of its synergy in kicking gens as well and now your at a 300 point build.
Now lets do a full aura build as a contrary example, Lethal, BBQ, Darkness revealed, and nowhere to hide.
Again we start wth lethal at 30 points, NWTH at 20 points.
BBQ in a vacuum is actually fairly weak at a base level so I am gonna call this one 10 points.
Darkness revealed is probably somewhere in between BBQ and NWTH, so lets call it 15 points.
So we start at 75 points and we can still add the 10 points for the synergy lethal has with NWTH, with BBQ and darkness revealed you have additional synergy with weaker perks so add another 5 for each making lethal 50 points in this build.
Since our Aura perks only have synergy with Lethal we add that synergy to each perk so NWTH becomes a 30 point perk, BBQ goes to 15 points, Darkness revealed jumps to 20 points, giving this build a total of 215 points.
As to how build switching would work you could switch from the slowdown build to the aura build no problem as it has a lower point total but not vice versa because the match was created based on the strength of the build, the only way this would work is if the point difference in perks was made up in a point difference in add ons.
Now obviously I'm one person coming up with strength numbers on the fly, and there are so many interactions to consider, but I will point some basic ones out that pop to the front of my brain.
Darkness revealed would get a synergy bump on huntress or trickster, because they open lockers more often.
STBFL would have additional synergy on killers that can avoid the downside like Nemesis, Demo, Pig or Trapper.
All slowdown perks would get a synergy bump with Pig because of the slowdown of her traps.
Aura perks would get a synergy reduction with Twins because Victor cant see Auras. This is a weird one that goes the other way.
Meme addons that make a killer weaker would potentially have a small negative point value. Lets quickly look at the 4 jaw addons for Trapper,
Rusted jaws apply Mangled which is solid call this a 10 point addon
Lengthened applies deep wound which is still solid this can also be 10 points although you could argue this should be higher than mangled and you could definitely argue for 15 points.
Serrated applies hemorrhage which is worse than mangled so you can argue for 5 points but I think this is so minor that I think this addon is safe being a straight 0 points
Padded jaws removes the health state removal of the trap making them much weaker so this would be -10 points toward build strength.
On the survivor side Built to last is a fun example because its base strength would be 0 points, and its synergy value would be completely based on the Item strength value that you bring.
Being in a premade SWF group would adjust your MMR based on how many are in the premade whether full, trio or duo, also taking into account perk synergy across the group.
This paints a fairly basic idea as to how this could be Implemented, it would be an endeavor to implement, but would allow for much more accurate matchmaking.
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I have only ever lobby dodged a few times because I'm trying to get a specific tome challenge and after trying repeatedly, I just want one that isn't gonna be against a full SWF team that could possibly destroy me. Other than that one specific instance I don't care. I'll play whoever ends up there. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose and sometimes we both do good enough and I end up with an even 2 kills
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This is a good start to people enjoying a competitive experience here.
😀
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If i see more than two medkits or flashlights i dodge.
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In a world where SBMM works, dodging lobbies would be pointless as the next one should be players of the same level.
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Issue is the prestige system. I don't recall constant whining about lobby dodging prior to that. Because people dodged less when they didn't have giant "HEY I PROBABLY HAVE THOUSANDS OF HOURS" indicators on survivors.
And yes, I am going to dodge the lobby with the 400 ping VPNing Dwight from China. Having a rubber banding 400 ping teammate isn't a challenge. It's just unfun.
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as long as dbd doesn't have matchmaking it will stay that way and swf will be the only version to have fun, we used to have MMR before the soft cap was lowered to the level of bhvr itself, it wasn't perfect it was ok but me I have no more hope that bhvr will ever come to their senses so that these miss matches don't continue to arise, but I don't care if CS2 comes out (hopefully) if valve announces it, I'll be so happy, I played csgo years ago and am dbd then sadly switched to dbd don't get me wrong dbd is love but the devs are the worst i've ever seen so when cs2 comes i'll be gone :)) just drop by sporadically my main game will be cs again be, then bhvr can leave the matchmaking as it is, do everything the way you do it, because I have my old main game back :D
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1) limiting how many of a certain perk the team can use;
2) making gens take slightly longer based on difference between SWF team’s MMR or win rate and killer MMR score/win rate
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This is my reason for dodging lobbies as well. The more pips I have to lose, the pickier I get about my teammates. If de-pipping were removed from the game, I'd probably never dodge a lobby. Having a bad match is just part of the DbD experience. Having a bad match and de-pipping for it is what I really can't stand.
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That's a way to kill the game even if it would be fair to make gens at least slower.
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I try to not care but I still care even the reward is only 2 million bp reaching red rank. Not that you are actually going up ranks or something. Depipping just should not be a thing.
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I dodge lobby as killer if survivors are low level and have no items because that's mostly a SWF team in disguise. Then dodge if I see toolboxes, mekits or high level players. Had the game for years and have still not played a single game only been lobby dodging.
Ok that was a joke but my point is if you dodge a lobby a lot of the times you think the match will be more easy when it's the opposite. Yeah killers wants to avoid SWFs and solos like me I dodge when I see these PC players with very childish gamertags I don't want to play with or against these kind of people.
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i know some people have stated seeing ttv gamertags is enough of a reason to dodge for them
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