Are people truly incapable of countering dead hard?
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I think it boils down to patience for a lot of killer players. They wait like 1 second and then swing, or they simply don't have the patience to wait at all. For me I'll get hit by 3-4 dh on a tricky map if the survivors can actually force me to flick for a down. It's just tedious to play around every single chase though. Whether I have to bump one more time and down them instantly after they dh or slowly walk up to them and sniff their neck until they panic.
https://clips.twitch.tv/AgileSneakyPuddingPipeHype-xxxFgtswgZpWnfqS
On a side note that dh in the clip above is probably the best I have seen in a very long time. Not only did she fully wait out the first lethal rush, she even sat there and waited for half a second while Lilith stared at her during slam duration.
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I love how Dead Hard is a nearly useless perk everyone with two braincells can easily counter, yet somehow sees use in almost every game, especially in high MMR.
I love how Dead Hard has a "counter" and that counter is "always be afraid of Dead Hard, assume everyone uses it, adapt your entire playstyle around it, waste time every single chase, pray that there is no pallet or vault or exit gate or hatch nearby, then you'll have a chance to "counter" it by having the Survivor use it wrong."
I love how Dead Hard 100% invalidates lunges and any power with a wind up.
I love how Dead Hard is justified because of Nurse, yet for some reason nobody campaigns to bring all Killers to Nurse's level, who apparently is the gold standard for balancing.
I'd also love to see what would be gonig on in these forums if any Killer perk would be as strong, oppressive and versatile as Dead Hard.
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And how would he know? He ain't no dev and as far as I'm aware there are no stats that back this up
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They're not that incapable to counter it, they just think that if they whine and spam the forums enough, the Devs will nerf it again.
Some killers have never heard of mind-gaming, if they're whining about eating a pallet because they had to wait out DH, that's on their skill issue.
Why are you waiting to get a hit only when it's at a pallet? Stop respecting pallets if you see that the survivor is greeding it, we all know the game registers hits in the killers' favour. Bait it out. Mind-game it, or eat the damn DH.
If you're wasting so much time on 1 surv go chase the gen-jockeys, it's not that hard, and not every game is against sweaty tryhards or whatever USA abbreviated team of "law" enforcement. Nor are most players here playing a tournament, though they sure love to act like they do.
Heck you even have killers whose powers straight-up make DH futile, like Deathslinger, Legion, and even Pinhead with his Purple add-on 🤷🏻
And to whomever that asked how are "we" supposed to counter auto-DH, that's people cheating, and on the Devs to fix it, not the playerbase who is already getting doxed, Ddosd and facing cheaters on the daily.
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-"You play killer right and you dominate the game."
This is low MMR talk no offense.
You split your games over at least 8 killers so none has reached 1600 MMR so you aren't shunting every killer you own to 1200 MMR minimum. You are playing easy mode. Wake up and pick one killer and play 50 games in a row. You will be like : "oh".
Otz got most of his winstreaks before MMR existed. He "cheated" on the artist sreak by zooming the last 3rd when MMR was turned off. Is he a good player? Yes but you need to view those streaks with asterisks.
A streak should be like this : you play 50 games in a row with that killer and no breaks between. Being able to swap killers lets you abuse some of the holes in the MMR system. I could for example only play games where I play vs 4 solo players on steam. Anything else I dodge. And what if I only played after 4am when there are 0 SWF's until at least noon the next day? Speain is about 8 hours ahead of me and I remember otz doing his win streaks at 6-7pm my time.
But I digress - The point isn't about how many times in a row you can win. The point is when you raise your MMR enough you're going to cross a line you can never go back over. Once you hit 1600 for the first time it will forever limit how low your Killer MMR can go. And that's complete BS.
"There are some tough games sometimes, sure, but these are only against coordinated SWFs with 1000+ hours, and that's pretty rare"
If SWF were rare it might be fine but it isn't. We know the last time they gave us metrics that more than 50% of people played survivor in a SWF and that was before the tunneling epidemic. I suspect it's closer to 60-70% now.
Also as for tournament limitations.... Survivor is always massively more limited than killer except the most extreme of cases that are like - just bring whatever.
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Maybe ask him?
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It's just a badly designed perk. It makes the killer hesitant to even hit the target which is their entire goal. This is somewhat like a survivor being hesitant to be on a gen because of old eruption. It's stupid and a perk shouldn't make you hesitate with interactions of core gameplay, it creates a funky feel.
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Actually i ramped my mmr pretty quickly early on. I played demo exclusively for a long time to get good with it. And i had that thing where I hit a wall with killer early because I'd 4k stomped so many weak solo q teams and was getting matched against very experienced players. After grinding that and learning how to counter perks like dead hard, flashlight and bodyblocking those teams started to lose against me.
On xbox I can't inspect most players playtime, only other xbox users, but the ones I do see often have in excess of 100 days play time. And it's nothing unusual for me to see (and beat) full teams of 40+prestiges. Very often obviously swf'd up, working together for bodyblocks/flashlights, genrushing while I'm in chase. I have to work at it for sure, the games aren't easy, but they aren't too much of a struggle either. I know where to pressure to force a 3 gen. If killer knows what buttons to press they have tthe power to control the game against all but the absolute best swfs.
Obvs I don't know the exact numbers for my mmr, and I'm probably not in the top 1% or whatever but my mmr is definitely high. I'm still seeing players with over 5 times my playtime regularly. Don't think I'd be getting that at low mmr.
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Im not sure if youre being sarcastic, but regardless:
Your point about the balance is wrong. According to the forums the ideal for survivor balance is to buff sirvivor till it reaches swf, which is never as swf also benefits from these buffs unless the buff is "dbd now has voicechat"
Im pretty sure many people consider the border between B+ and A- the "ideal balanced tier". Spirit still to strong for survivor mains.
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I just despise waiting it out anytime a survivor is injured, not Exhausted, and hasn't shown another Exhaustion perk. And that happens a lot.
I'm bored of it. Can't even swing at em. Feels bad.
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You don't have to be too hesitant with it. You just need to not swing at the first available opportunity. If you go for an optimistic lunge them you are far more likely to get DHd. But if you're right up on the surv and pause for 1 sec, then do a basic swing, you maximise your chance of nailing the down.
It doesn't take long and a quick basic swimg is impossible to react to based on animations/reflex.
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I know how to counter it, I do it most chases. I just don't find it fun. It's tiresome at this point. I don't think letting instant M1s counter Dead Hard would be too much to ask.
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Yeah, it'd be swell if killers had a perk like Dead Hard that could just undo the entire pvp interaction in-loop when they get outplayed . Oh wait, nvm, that'd be game-breaking horseshit because then killers wouldn't have to be good at playing the loop, just at pressing E 0.5 seconds before the vault/pallet drop.
It's almost like players shouldn't have a perk that allows them to win anyway after they've already been outplayed.
Or is that just "ignorance."
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-"it's nothing unusual for me to see (and beat) full teams of 40+prestiges."
One of the people I met through discord recently has 300 hours and is prestige 100.
-"If killer knows what buttons to press they have tthe power to control the game against all but the absolute best swfs."
I have gotten to the point where generally speaking that's all I end up playing against every game. Most of the killer roster can't handle that.
-"I'm probably not in the top 1% or whatever but my mmr is definitely high"
If you are smashing everyone easily then maybe you need to stream. The only demo player I know is Bronx. He plays extremely nice and wins a lot of his demo gains (but his chat knows that underneath he is a hidden Nemesis main). When he gets that killer SWF team he gets smashed because he never tunnels or camps.
Spirit was too strong when she had collision with survivors mid phase. Every change after that was unnecessary for balance. We would see a night and day difference in the use of Boons if killers could break the bones base kit (even before they got booned). We would see a similar difference in hex use if killers could rekindle them indefinitely unless all bones were broken. Nobody plays spirit anymore practically because they basically ruined her kit.
There are two "fair" killers in DBD : Nurse/Blight. They are the only two killers with a complete kit that can handle SWF and every map in the game. Compare this to trapper who is basically completely shut down if there is no grass. Compare this to the Pig - the map introduced with that killer 100% shuts her down.
There is essentially one map in the game that is strong for killers and I can't understand why survivors would ever use Mary's letter to take them there.
In my opinion there are two fair maps : Rancid Abattoir and Wreckers yard. Both have small floorplans and a limited number of pallets that are all strong. Both maps have multiple places where a killer can three gen. This is what makes a fair map for 100% of the killer cast. What disqualifies coal tower is the fact that too many tiles get linked together to make "uber tiles" where you can loop for a long time without using up any resources (this can sometimes happen on Iron Works in the corner near shack). The main building is shack on Wreckers yard and the Abattoir is actually very fair with breakable walls.
A terrible examples of breakable walls are Badham/Dead Dog. Punching holes in Badham makes the map better for survivors unless you are Huntress/Trickster. Dead Dog has a main building with a semi infinite loop unless the upstairs and downstairs walls (everyone knows which 2) are broken. Never touch any of the other walls unless you want to make the building stronger.
-"Yeah, it'd be swell if killers had a perk like Dead Hard that could just undo the entire pvp interaction in-loop when they get outplayed"
Got you covered Fam : Gen Hard. Once per game the killer can Press E on an uncompleted generator. When that generator gets completed it reverts to 0% and can never be completed (effectively reducing the map generator count by 1 total).
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Speed boost? Distance isn't gained with dh anf if it is i didn't know
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Not sure what the high risk of DH is. If you're good you will land it most of the time.
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I know prestige isn't necessarily an indicator of skill, but as a correlation most high prestige player will be better. I don't think many new players prestige 100 a single character to the exclusion of all else.
And agreed some of the killer roster are pretty weak. The only "weak" killer I play with any regularity is deathslinger and on that I only play a meme all hex build. Those games are about 50/50.
And as for the streamer, not tunneling/camping is hamstringing yourself. I very rarely camp with demo, i will usually tunnel if survs are genrushing hard. My iri demo build is insane, i never feel out of control with that build, both iri addons, corrupt, to set up my portals, pain res+dms for the regression and locking down gens that are nearly popped. 4th perk I float and switch up, light born if I see 2 or more beamers, iron maiden to stop people trying to hide from the aura reads, sloppy or jolt sometimes if I feel like it. It's a filthy build and if I try while using it the game is easy. tried it in a custom against some friends of mine who are a very experienced swf with 100+ days each and play together a lot. and I absolutely shredded them.
My other build is for when I want to chill, I still "win" about 75-80% of my games with it, and it's just a bp farming build really. Distressing, hex TOTH, bbq and a regressions perk usually jolt or pain res so I have some control of the game. Add ons rotten pumpkin and rat's tail, plus i usually bring streamers or envelope. Good for BP I'll get 1.6k for a single shred hit. And I still usually perform well, though I'll always release one or two at the end after farming with them for a bit.
Out of interest do you know if there's a way players can check their dbd mmr?
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Yh you get the normal speed boost for taking a hit. You just don't go down.
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Because if it doesn't work you get downed. Versus most other exhaustion perks where you get a speed boost so no chance you'll waste it.
Plus you're not only relying on your own skill when trying to hit DH. You're also relying on the killer to not counter play it. Which is kind of my point. You can't guarantee that you'll force killer to swing into it apart from maybe at pallets.
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You just need to not swing at the first available opportunity.
Unless you meet those survivors who are so deep into the Dead Hard mindgame that they will fake DH before actually using it. Several times. Then you're back to Square One.
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Out of interest do you know if there's a way players can check their dbd mmr?
Yes. Only one certain type of player can see them except for DBD moderators. But I'm not allowed to tell you (as per forum rules - if you are smart you will immediately know why). If that doesn't clue you in then I suggest you watch some of Choy's video content in regard to DBD's cheater epidemic.
It was Choy's conversations where we learned the MMR rules.
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Baiting DH out works much of the time, but at strong pallets/windows you are forced to take a swing at a predictable moment, so there's little you can do in those situations. And lunges and wind-up attacks are pretty useless against DH.
And debating the semantics of "second chance" seems silly; you get to stay up where you otherwise would be on the floor. Not sure how that's anything but a second chance.
You know what would be fun? Like a "pump fake" option where a button tap feigns an attack.
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I don't get how you fake a dead hard. That might be overthinking it.
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If a survivor catches on that a killer doesn't fall for easy Dead Hard baits, they can start faking it to psych the killer out. Many survivors will suddenly change directly towards the killer mid-chase to make them swing on impulse and Dead Hard, but if the killer isn't falling for that, they'll start juking towards the killer but not Dead Harding at all. They'll do this repeatedly until one of them makes the wrong call and loses the stand-off. I see it happen a lot in killer gameplay streams and videos, maybe you should try watching them.
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Sounds like a risky tactic. Because if killer pauses the hit and simply stays on the surv tgen they can basic swing at any time, they are just handing killer a down.
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if a single perk will carry survivors so much, then for default it should be COMPLETELY changed... also game killer side? don't make me laugh, i'll gladly give you the match that i did yesterday, then we can talk again if you feel that this game is killer side...
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I said this another thread
If low level players don't know how to counter dh and the high level players are just bored of playing against it why does it need to stay? Everytime I watch a good streamer regardless of their main role they say "dead hard" in the most monotonous way with a completely blank face. The perk has been meta for 6 years, dbd players need to understand it's way overdue to be f tier for a bit.
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A key problem for eruption is that it didn't really affect SWFs, but was devastating to soloQ.
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I do like that a lot of killers in this thread are open about not finding it fun. That's a better argument than usually gets made. If you find it ruins gameplay, theme, fun, I disagree, but understand.
I don't use DH as a survivor, as killerI think it adds another mind gaming element to play, another element of cat and mouse. As killer I generally just swing early to start the match and potentially eat the DH, after that they are more likely to DH quickly as they are expecting an early swing. I find it far less annoying than a 99ed sprint burst.
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DH is problematic because of the way it infects the game, not because of its power level. (Though one has to wonder what the power level of a perk that you see on 3-4 survivors every other match could be... is the perk good, or are survivors stupid to bring it? You have to pick one or the other...)
It's so prevalent that you have to assume that everybody has it until you know otherwise. Just by existing, you have to play around it, even if it's not in the match at all.
I don't have any problems countering it the vast majority of the time (usage tends to be pretty telegraphed), it's just tiring dealing with it constantly.
Then there are the cases where it's a lose/lose and the survivor gets their guaranteed free health state.
The sole thing that makes me okay with the perk existing some of the time is that the devs never went back and changed the animation like they said they were going to. It's goofy as hell to see a survivor dab before going down.
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Waiting for a Dead Hard that doesn't exist usually costs me an early down almost every match when the survivor makes the distance to the pallet that they wouldn't have gotten if I just swung on them. Survivors not even running the perk get free distance and potentially a chase extension because of the mere fact that the perk exists. It is that overpowered.
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It only carries the game if killers can't counter it and simply swing into it constantly which is avoidable. And you do realise for a game with any balance killers are going to have "bad games" 40-50% of the time.
If a surv is good at chase they are a nightmare but again if you can counterplay them it's easy enough to win. I went against a team with 2 focussed on bullying one genrushing and one flipping between the two tactics. bodyblocking, head on playing and flashlighting constantly. And I got still got a 4k. And all this with a subpar build on demo. Not a particularly strong killer. And the funny thing? I only had 2 useful perks, pain res and nowhere to hide. Nothing to help in chase. Aside from that I was running distressing and thrill of the hunt. All were running DH and I swung into it once. And I was just M1ing, maybe hit like 1 shred.
Still one gen left and practically untouched by the time I killed the other 3 hunted down the gen rusher.
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I have to admit this I agree with. Imo DH itself mechanically on paper is fine, but I certainly can't disagree that it is far overused. It's a shame they can't find a way to limit usage without nerfing it into the ground. Like limiting it to 2 players per match or something.
It reminds me of the tunneling/facecamping argument. They are legitimate tactics, but unpleasant to play against. Except DH is an issue at high mmr rather than low and is more counterable than tunneling/face camping. Plus it depends if ypu find DH unpleasant to play against, which personally I dont, but then I counter it a lot. If I swung into it more I'd probably hate it too. Which is kind of the point of my thread, to see how many people can counter it versus swing into it constantly.
Post edited by HoodedWildKard on0 -
So I've watched choy's video on how mmr works. Interesting watch. Shame we can't legitimately find out what our mmr is because I'd love to know mine.
Personally I'm pretty sure I have at least hit the 1600 bracket. 0-1k games are rare for me. So my mmr would have been climbing steadily. Even now that I tend to play relaxed a bit more, even when I decide to be nice I usually let 1 or 2 survs go so that wont drop my mmr. Plus my games with new killers are very tough until I get used to them. Plus I do see an awful lot of ttvs in my games. Not sure if I've seen any big ones as the only famous dbd streamers I know of are otz and now choy.
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If gens took 120 seconds to complete, it would be fine.
*but that's never going to happen*
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Tell me then, how can you counter it near pallets? That's right, YOU CAN'T. Please, we both know that the main issue of this perk is that in certain situations it can't be countered at all... In the open? A joke to counter. Near windows? A lot more tricky but still doable. Near pallets? You eat the pallet or took the dead hard with the consequences that it brings (pallet saved for another future chase and the hit survivor gaining another health state that will essentially reset the chase)
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Mostly wanted to make a comment on the Otz part of your post and 50-game winsteak. I want to point out that ever since they turn mmr on Otz hasn't been about to get 50 wins in a row anymore and in fact, he even mostly retired from the 50 winsteak challenge now. He now settles for 25 to 30 wins if he is even able to get that. The only 50 winsteak he got doing the time mmr been added to dbd was on artist and that even has a * beside it bc he got that winsteak doing the days they had mmr turned off as part of the week-long experiments they were doing for mmr.
Personally, I do not find the killer the easiest role in this game at all. The killer is still to me the more stressful role and sometimes the most unfun times I have in a game(depending on the type of survivors I have). I do get 4ks often? yeah but not as often as you or the OP puts it. Maybe Im just bad even tho I have over 1000s hours in the game now but I still find matches super stressful and hard to win on a nightly basics. I would say the easiest role in dbd is swf.
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-"Mostly wanted to make a comment on the Otz part of your post and 50-game winsteak"
He did complete the last ~16 or so of artist on a day when MMR was turned off. I say that mars the streak to be invalid. Imagine if there were a day that let killers only queue against solo players. Would that invalidate a 50 win streak?
-"Personally, I do not find the killer the easiest role in this game at all."
-"I would say the easiest role in dbd is swf."
That's because the power role in DBD is the SWF. They dont nerf SWF because that role makes survivors happy. IF you can play Nurse/Blight at very high levels with strong perks+addons then maybe you can reclaim the power role.
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~He did complete the last ~16 or so of artist on a day when MMR was turned off. I say that mars the streak to be invalid. Imagine if there were a day that let killers only queue against solo players. Would that invalidate a 50 win streak?~
Completely agree with you. I still remember that day when mmr was turned off and he finish the streak. He knew something was up with mmr that day and took full advantage of it. He went well over his usual stopping time that day just to grind out those last 16 or so games. This is why personally I do not recognize his artist 50 winstreak and put an asterisk beside it. Ever since then, he has struggled to even get 20+ games in a row on the killers.
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My point is that it is quite easy to counter especially with blight vs 99% of survivors. I just don't want to play around it every chase anymore. Other than when I don't have rushes the counterplay is the exact same as old dh most of the time and I feel exactly as I did before 6.1.0 again.
If the meta never actually changes and the game stays the same at the core level then the game becomes extremely repetitive. The survivor meta especially as been the same for far too long, It's like if I had to play against the same 2 killers for a year as survivor. I don't think there is any downside to just nerfing dh into the ground until the meta changes after the next one and then reworking it. Again, the perk is easy to counter majority of the time but it's not something that should have to be dealt with every chase along with the counterplay breaking the flow of a chase imo.
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DH is the most unfun perk to go against for the killer side, it's overused and overstayed its welcome in the meta for many years, to not understand why people hate the most overused perk that you see at least 2-3 of every game is simply silly considering how many people get mad about cob and other highly used killer perks.
People can wait it out, but not when they are on the pallet because its latency based you can time it perfectly and still hit dh, there are also other moments where had they not been using dead hard you could have gotten a survivor, specific instances where you cannot afford to just wait it out. Sure not every run-of-the-mill survivor can use dead hard now, but it doesn't mean it is bad if you or someone else you know cant trigger dead hard ever. If it was bad then no survivor would use it, it's similar to what people used to excuse old dead hards strength. Since I can't use it then it must be bad or in a good spot.
The actually smart people who use dead hard don't run at the killer hoping they swing they use it on pallets, while the killer's power is being telegraphed, and when they know the killer can't afford to not swing like making a mad dash to the exit gates when their bt runs out and the killer if they get that hit they get downed and can get out, but dead hard gives them that brief window to escape where otherwise they wouldn't have. This perk may not be that strong to you, and to your credit, it isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's still not enjoyable to see every game, because it makes it so killers have fewer options even when survivors don't have it in play this perk works. It's just that all-encompassing.
Literally, no perk has this amount of impact on the game, NOED used to in a way with most survivors calling out NOED if the killer is even remotely bad lol, but since it's become less used and easier to find survivors do not do all 5 totems to get it. I would literally trade any other good killer perk just for the removal of dead hard because it makes me sigh every time I see it now, I used to use it all the time like the older older dead hard when people said sprint burst was better cause it didn't leave you on the ground exhausted, but seeing it every game for years when it rose in popularity it just made me despise this perk it's not fun for the other side it's not fair to killers who have super telegraphed powers, it's just a meta perk that refuses to get out of the meta and will continue to remain the best exhaustion perk until they maybe consider just completely changing it.
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I mean survivors can make you have to hit them like what...5 times? I think dead hard is just a symptom of an annoyance a lot of us killer mains have to face in the higher mmr. We start getting bully squads that abuse mechanics to make it impossible to put someone in the dying state and it's very annoying to go against. It's just what the meta is right now, so killers shifted to gen slowdown since survivors can have all of that nonsense and STILL be able to gen rush.
At this point the meta is a 2 way street. Arguing whose fault it was first is just arguing about the chicken and the egg. The game is more about gen slow down and stalling for killers then ever before and waiting for survivors to make mistakes so we can take them out of the game.
People will moan and complain about defending a hook to try and secure a kill when the survivirs have an amazing amount of resources in a match AND have perks that can make it almost impossible to keep someone on hook to get them out of the game. And I'm not talking about your local face camping bubba troll. I'm talking about hooking a sruvivor and patrolling the area when you know others are going to try and unhook.
3 survivors work on gens a lot slower then 4, and since behavior doesn't want me to defend my hooks to make sure I don't have to hit a survivors 5 TIMES TO HOOK SOMEONE AGAIN, then I'm gonna try and push people away from a 3 gen so I can defend it properly and win the game.
This isn't a case of being malicious or being a troll. This is literally what I have to do to win. If your mad about that, don't blame me, blame the developers for making the game more about gens for both sides. I need bloodpoints to level up and prestige, and so do you. The best we can hope for is that we both find a way to have fun with the new style of play.
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-"DH is the most unfun perk to go against for the killer side"
The "O" word you are looking for is overtuned.
-"Literally, no perk has this amount of impact on the game"
What people don't realize is that extending a chase by 20 seconds gives the enemy team 60 seconds of time. Where's the killer perk that undoes 60 seconds of work on a generator by pressing E?
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Better yet, where's the killer perk that every survivor must be paranoid about encountering the entire match in every single match they play, and actively skews their playstyle because they have to be constantly prepared to play around it?
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Well i remember there being some grievances about Noed.
But despite all the uproar and nerf-threads survivors didnt simply... play gainst it but kept getting "surprised" by it despite the claims it being in every trial.
The funniest complains were those that cited the games in which it didnt even activate.
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I just swing. The way I see it you waste just as much time waiting it out as you do by hitting it. I rather not wait and swing.
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