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The Dead Hard nerf is one of the worst changes ever made
And I'm not even a fan of DH. I hate that perk in fact. You can literally negate insta-down powers with it. So I wanted it to change. And it did... just in the worst way possible
The way I wanted it to change is by making it so it cannot tank against insta-down powers. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. This would make it the most balanced and fair exhaustion perk in this game.
But what they did instead was killing it. Why? I never understood the obsession of killing the meta. How about instead of killing meta perks we just look into the problematic aspects of it and change it so that it is still meta but fair as well? All BHVR is doing is to react to the entitled playerbase and gutting perks for no reason?
Eruption problematic? Kill the perk. DH problematic? Kill the perk. Same with Ruin last year and many other perks and powers that got gutted just so they are not meta anymore.
Killing meta perks is a horrible idea and will make the game even more stale (gen kicking meta was the perfect evidence for it)
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The user and all related content has been deleted.4
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Hell, games like Fortnite even have a vault system where some weapons come out on a rotation so that you get a limited amount of time with each one before they go away for awhile. This is done purposely to keep the game changing so that it's not stale.
Imagine if BHVR did that with perks. "You can run DH for the next two weeks, then it's going in the vault for 3 months."
The outcry that would result. Lord, have mercy.
I don't think DBD players actually want the game not to be stale.
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Dead Hard certainly needed a nerf, but I do think this may have been a bit to big of a nerf. Much like when they buried Ruin in 6.1
It could be better if instead of activating after an unhook, and then deactivating once used. If performing unhooks granted you tokens, allowing you to bank DH uses for later. And in addition to unhooks, maybe include protection hits in there as well.
So: Rescuing a survivor off the hook, or taking a protection hit, grants you a token. Each time you use DH, you consume a token.
That could work better.
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every perk they nerfed in this ptb they completly killed, except maybe boon circel of healing but they already nerfed healing a ton.
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If we are just killling the current meta, we jump right into the next stale meta. Rather than killing the perk we should give the meta a bigger variety. Buff more perks to make the meta unique. If you have more strong perks you will se a bigger variety of loadouts. And a perk being in the meta for years is fine if you change it in a way that makes it more fair.
For Dead Hard all it needed was it to not work against insta down powers and maybe a slightly longer animation so it's easier to counter at pallets. Sprint Burst and Lithe are also in the meta for a very long time. Do these also need to go? I don't think so!
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They killed CoH IMO. I mean it doesn't work with out a medkit? Like what is that change?
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Maybe you only cared about Dead Hard working against one-hit-powers, but most people also took issue with it having value even when used wrong, it having value even if not used at all, it forcing an extremely unfun playstyle, it leading to lose/lose situations at pallets and it countering pretty much every power with a wind-up. And it technically still can do most of those things, just not as consistently.
So basically you are complaining because BHVR listend to the wider community instead of you specifically.
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When the current meta is...
Perk A: 90% use rate
All other perks: 1-5% use rate
...then buffing a couple of perks to make them a bit more useful isn't going to have as much of an impact as heavily nerfing Park A, is it?
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What I want is a bigger meta. A meta with more variety. Right now, we only have a handful of perks viable. If we just buff more perks to make them meta guess what? It's going to be more interesting
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🦀🦀🦀🦀
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I'm asking for some huge buffs so that perks like DH are not seen as one of the only viable options. Right now only a handful of perks are meta because they are the only viable options in the meta. If we would have more meta perks all of a sudden the games wouldn't be so boring
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The way I wanted it to change is by making it so it cannot tank against insta-down powers. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. This would make it the most balanced and fair exhaustion perk in this game.
That wouldn't have really done anything at all. How many killers have insta-down powers? Hillbilly, Leatherface, Myers, Ghost Face, Oni, Skull Merchant. It would change pretty much nothing, while still screwing over every other killer in the game. No, the way BHVR did it is the right call.
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Well a big part of the community are just a bunch of entitled whiny toddlers not being able to
a) be more patient with hitting the survivors
b) not being able to leave the gen for a second before the survivor gets hooked
c) not being able to coordinate to preemtively break a 3-gen
d) not being able to bring an anti-healing build to counter CoH because "I nEeD mY gEn KiCkInG bUiLd To WiN cUz I gOt No SkIlL"
All they do is crying about meta perks the other side has and keep demanding to kill those perks rather than making reasonable changes. DH, Pain Res, CoH and Eruption were killed because people cannot stop crying and being entitled rather than proposing reasonable changes in order to make them fair, not dead.
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You want to see HUGE buffs?
Power creep is what got us here, this game is an arms race that's gotten out of control, that's the cause of all of the balance issues. These changes reign it back. Healing speed, gen regression, and second chances, all flattened. That's a good thing, this is why nerfing the overpowered perks is a good thing, it means the weapons of mass destruction are closer to the baseline, which means there's less power variance and the game as a whole is easier to balance.
"they are the only viable perks"
Absolutely false. Tons of perks are viable, most players are just too greedy to give up their win buttons.
I actively avoid meta perks, for both survivor and killer. I have a great time, it's way more fun bringing different builds into different games, I don't see a huge drop in performance, I still win at least half my games.
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That's also called power creep. How do you make a perk that can compete with dead hard? It would have to be as equally broken or more so, which then means the next perk has to be even more broken and so on and so forth.
Healing is a prime example. The baseline is a 16 second heal that requires a teammate to accomplish. Over time perk and item changes have led to a world where survivors except to be able to heal themselves in sub 15 seconds with one perk out of 16 and no other items included. Throw in items and you get sub 10 second timers. How on earth do you balance against that unless you just play a shell game and introduce "nu-sloppy" - reduces healing by 75%.
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With my proposed change you could have also brought exposed addons to negate DH. So if DH would still be a problem for you just run exposed perks. Also DH is a pretty balanced perk (with the exception that it can tank through insta down powers. So if you are an M1 killer and not being able to outplay DH I'm sorry but that's a skill issue
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So if you are an M1 killer and not being able to outplay DH I'm sorry but that's a skill issue
Anyone can outplay DH with enough experience. The problem is having to outplay it constantly, in every chase, with every survivor, in every match, and sometimes ending up in circumstances where it can't be outplayed at all.
It's not a skill issue. It's a game health issue.
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Well I never said anything about the medkit changes. They are good because they were too opressive. All I'm asking for is to make a big meta instead of stale ones. We are having a stale meta because we have few perks that are just opressive while the others are far too weak. You can nerf the meta a bit to remove it's opressiveness and on the other hand buffing new perks to make them line up in the meta as well. But no, we rather kill perks for no good reason
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If it isn't a power like Billys chainsaw where you cannot outplay DH then it absolutely is a skill issue. Even at pallets because survivors cannot throw them while being locked in an animation. Having to outplay DH is simply a part of the game and it has been like this for 6 years now. It's our own fault if we respect it even in the first chase. And DH is fair make no mistake. It gives the survivors an ability to still have something up their sleeves if they are running out of options. Something that requires timing and the killer messing up. Once the killer is in close range the survivor has absolutely no signs of when he has to press the button. Even at pallets you can time it correctly
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I think we are all arguing the same thing but different roads to get there
Option A) nerf outliers and get everything on the same base level
Pros : minimize power creep
Cons : feels very bad becoming weaker over time for players
Option B) buff weaker perks to outlier level
Pros : feels great, minimizes feeling weaker for players
Cons: begins to introduce some very fluctuating situations, has the potential to push certain things into "broken" territory
Everyone wants a meta where many many perks are viable but there are many paths that can be taken to get there. I personally argue against embracing power creep because at a certain point it can become very very hard to address without huge fundamental changes like the ones we are seeing now to the entire healing system. That said I 100% agree with you that the "kill it to deal with it" style of balance is very frustrating
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I do not play meta either. I main Billy and play no gen perks. But if you want to win, you only have a few viable options. So rather than having just a few options we should focus on having more variety in meta. Maybe making opressive perks more fair and give weak perks meaningful changes
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The nerfs would all be fine if killers had to actually get 12 hooks i.e. tunneling didnt exist. But unfortuantely killers can and will continue to take the easiest route even when chases should be quicker and easier.
At the end of the day a killer can win in as little as 4 hooks, realistically only 8 to 9. Survivors still have to complete all 5 gens regardless. The killer role could be buffed even more if tunneling and camping was reduced
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The thing is I see your point. Making a satisfying meta change is frustrating, almost impossible. But we have things like the PTB for a reason. What we can do is to test a bunch of suggested changes to their extreme and see if they are too oppressive.
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Having to outplay DH is simply a part of the game and it has been like this for 6 years now.
And that's exactly why it's being changed! Hopefully it stays dead and buried this time.
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This is my favorite reply ever on this forum.
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DH still has same effect. it will not be available as often anymore but its ability to second chance has remained unchanged. They're adding a proper drawback to the perk to limits effectiveness. I wouldn't call it dead but I do think it will be less used as it have less reliability then before. There is notable meaningful choice in choosing exhaustion perks now.
Do you want the strongest possible effect? DH
OR
Do you want the most reliable speed boost? Every other exhaustion perk.
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It couldnt stay the way it was, its unhealthy for the game. Its a terrible designed perk
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Your opinion. I am being fine with it.
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mf starting a crab rave
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I'm fine with playing around Dead Hard sometimes, I'm just glad it won't be all the time.
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Agreed. No one but absolute casuals and new players will run it. There's no reason to run it now. They killed both the fun in using the perk as well as its strength. Chases are going to be even more boring now since there's less mindgaming now. They listened to the entitled bad players who made a big deal about it. Even killer mains like Otz, Hexy, OhTofu, etc have said that although its annoying to deal with, it isn't a game breaking perk. And they still decided to nerf it into the ground.
It was already a hit and miss (more often than not, I'd bet most people had a higher failure rate than success w/ it) and now its just...there's no point to bring it over Lithe or SB. Most people are turning to SB now or just going to take a break from the game. Lets just give all the bad players who wanted it nerfed, an even easier match to win now! Give them a speed boost too while you're at it, maybe throw in some wall hacks so they can see every survivor. Good luck to the very few that will try to use it, lol. BHVR hasn't known what to do in terms of game balance or new content for a long long time, IMO.
I'm interested to see how game population turns out after this. :)
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well that would make it OP of course, if they keep gathering tokens like that. That would make the whole team have almost permanent 3 health states the entire game. So, no.
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It would still be limited by endurance, so no, it wouldn't be OP, it would be significantly weaker than it currently is.
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I genuinely don’t think there is any good way to nerf DH.
I’d rather it just be reworked entirely.
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I actually think in thatcase the outcry wouldn't be that big, because then it's an up and down, ie you know that your favorite perk will be coming back. With the way BHVR is handling their nerfs, your favorite perk could be revised in two chapters (6month), or in 2 ys, or never, and that's causing way more frustration in some players then any other option.
I personally think that they should do something like LoL: every month take the 5 most used perks and nerf them and take the 5 least used perk and buff them. Rinse and repeat every month, last month perks are exempt from the next round of buffs/nerfs. Done, no more meta set in stone to mold over, players will figure out the new meta every month and eventually every perk should see some kind of play and time to shine.
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League is literally on a 2 week patch cycle most of the year. Most dbd players just don't realize that a game dies or at the very least bleeds players if metas are not changed regularly. I like dbd but I basically have only been playing some survivor for the last few months due to the boredom of playing vs the same perks every single game. I love blight, but if I had to go against him every single game I would get bored in no time, same thing for survivor perks.
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What I never understood was nerfing things. Don't nerf things, buff other things. It'll make more perks useful and fun to use along with giving many options for meta instead of just one.
The hard part is doing it without making everything homogenized, however I don't think this game would have this problem. But then again what do I know, I could be wrong.
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Buffing everything causes power creep. Power creep causes problems. If they made something as strong as Dead Hard and Circle of Healing, they wouldn't run it instead of Dead Hard, they'd run it with Dead Hard. There's hundreds of perks in this game and if they were all as strong as DH and COH, the game would break apart.
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Dead Hard goes beyond mere meta. It fundamentally broke the game.
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They always kill perks instead of just nerfing a little bit, just like Decisive Strike, Eruption, etc.
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Yeah, they should buff other things to bring them up to par, not kill perks entirely.
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Well, in case of league, i don't play much overwatch, the meta barely sees the nuke like DBD has for the last year.
It gets tweaked every two weeks and if something is really broken it gets cut down in line with the rest
Below diamond ranks anything is relatively viable. Some things more and other less but they can be compensated by skill and experience.
But the meta changes in lol are also much more organic, resulting from other big changes like jungle, item or rune system revamps or a class of champions getting some more love for a season like the big bruiser, assassin, mage, tank and ADC changes over the last 5 years.
It didn't make any one of those changes an extreme outlier like dh is for exhaustion perks but kept everything mostly in line with each other.
In DBD they have started to nuke everything that gets complained about. Not to balance it but to get they players to just not use those things anymore. It's just the easy and lazy route and will end up with nothing being really useful and there having less or no impact. If they keep going at this pace, you might end up with a DBD where being basicly perk less won't make much of a difference anymore.
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