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You could've fixed camping and tunneling, yet you chose to do this with the mid-chapter update?
That's it. That's the post. We still don't have good counters against camping/tunneling. When is this going to be addressed?
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If the healing nerfs go live, which I very much believe will happen, then the devs will have to nerf camping as well, otherwise it will be buffed indirectly because of healing nerfed, and that's not something they can afford if you ask me.
They surely can't just dedicate a patch to nerfing camping and tunneling however, and then call it a day. Survivor queue times on average are already longer than killer queue times, so that would have just made queue times worse.
The healing nerf however will hopefully give BHVR the opportunity to nerf at least camping more effectively, finally.
If BHVR really wants to go with 24 second heal times, then the hook phase duration needs to be increased from 60 seconds to at least 75 seconds, and hook grabs on healthy survivors need to be removed as well.
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If BHVR really wants to go with 24 second heal times, then the hook phase duration needs to be increased from 60 seconds to at least 75 seconds, and hook grabs on healthy survivors need to be removed as well.
I can get behind this. Increasing hook times is fine. Some killers will camp through them anyway but the longer it is, the (deservedly) worse their experience will be. Hook grabs can go too, I don't care for them.
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Exactly that's the idea. You will never be able to prevent killers from camping completely, but what BHVR wants to do now, especially with the nerf to healing, is making camping less effective.
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Don't unhook in front of the killer to make tunneling less appealing and if a killer is camping do gens, as with the changes it would punish him even more as now there is no regression perks whatsoever that allows him to regain pressure at the end.
There, your counters, the same ones that have being in the game as forever. You're welcome.
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I think nerfing self healing will be a huge way to negate this.
I've played many matches where it was statistically better to tunnel the injured survivor off hook - as the healing power of survivors and relative safety of tiles means that an injured survivor in the open is forever a better option than going for an injury on a better positioned survivor. Hopefully, knowing that survivors will stay injured for longer and that they cannot easily trade health states will cause killers to be emboldened to leave the hook and take single hit chases.
I do not think this will happen yet, because the healing change was horrendously butchered. But in the future when they figure out how to properly balance things, I believe that healing time will play a big part in drawing killers away from the hook and off the tails of recently liberated survivors.
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Killers don't get to use regression perks when they are camping anyways.
The problem is that now, with healing taking longer, survivors will have even less time to hook trade against a camping killer, and will also have less time to do gens while doing so, because they will be spending more time healing.
Just doing gens and nothing else isn't a viable option if the killer is good and gets his first down quick enough. Camping will 100% have to be nerfed if the healing nerfs go live, no doubt. Or we'll see a big spike in killer queue times, I am certain of that.
They will have to increase the hook phase duration from 60 seconds to at least 75 seconds, that's for sure.
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There is literally nothing you can do about camping or tunneling outside of playing better and preventing the killer from doing it in the first place.
It's how the game was designed. It's #########, but that's just how it is.
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Killers use regression perks after they have camped so the remaining survivors won't escape, unless your only prupouse is to camp 1 or 2 survivors and lose the game. Now, they will lose the game as they can not start gaining time at the end of the game as now pressure is not done by regressing gens, is done by hurting survivors.
To trade hooks, you don't need more than one non injured survivor and healing is not a factor here, because as you said, it will be hooked. If the killer is camping, usually, he will be too busy standing in front of the first hook to hurt anybody else, so, there is no "spending more time healing" because technically he would not hurt much anybody.
"If the killer is good and gets his first down quick enough" I know it is not what you meant for sure, but what I read there is "the survivor wasn't good enough and didn't looped the killer for long". You made a mistake, luck wasn't by your side, you don't know how to loop, or in fact the killer was better and outplayed you. Whatever the reason you got down, and you would be punished for it. Don't like it? Get better and accept that things are not always going your way.
And I already said it but again, the changes won't "buff" camping because now every gen done is a bigger punish for the killer, and spent 2 minutes in front of the hook only allows survivor to pressure him more.
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No, a killer has the potential to end chases quickly even if the survivor does not make a mistake. Often it's about winning mindgames. There are enough strong killers that can do this.
I do get that killers will have less regression to work with once the first survivor is dead, but they will also have longer healing times to work with now. No, camping will surely have to be nerfed, so survivors can heal and still have a chance to counterplay camping. Because just doing gens isn't the best option. You want to go for hook trades, but you can't while you are injured. And incrased healing times means you spend more time healing, and less on gens, while the killer is camping.
If camping doesn't get addressed as well, I do believe many survivor players will take a break from the game. I don't know about you but I do not want 10 minute queue times for killers.
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The devs can nerf it so it is less effective. And with the healing nerf buffing camping indirectly, that's exactly what they are going to need to do if they don't want a clear decrease in survivor players.
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And you have an idea to do that then?
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Honestly I don't get what's so important about hook systems?
it's something objectively bad akin to kobeing penalty and stage 2 skill checks, There is no real "pressure" for hooks aside from the fact people will die if they ignore it anyway, so why not make a change
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And what makes you think they will do any of that lmao
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Y'know all it would take to make the camping and tunneling bearable is by removing depipping for players that do not disconnect
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I don't know, but I could see them doing it. I fear camping will get out of hand, so they will be forced to do something.
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Mindgames are bets. Sometimes you trick the other, sometimes you don't. Doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the killer or the skill of the player. By your same logic, we could say "survivors can make chases longer than they should because they win a lot of mindgames".
If someone is camping, healing is not a factor unless you mess up. If the killer is camping, you won't get hurt unless you come close to the hook, as the killer is camping. So, what you are talking about is not "survivors need to get healed to try the impossible save because the killer is camping", what you are saying is "survivors would get hurt trying to do an impossible save so they need time to reset the save, AKA healing again to have another try". In other words, what you people are asking is for the game to allow you to literally reset your mistakes over and over again.
And sorry but yes, doing gens when a killer is camping is an effective way of punishing him, more so if that first survivor waste a good amount of the killer's time. Yesterday, I had a game and survivors literally did 4 gens in 3:45 minutes. If the survivor that is going to be camped loop the killer good and waste his time, the rest have time to do most of the gens and try to go for a save. And the keyword is try, as now the game won't "have your back" if you failed the save and want to try another 3 times.
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BTW, they tried many times before to do something against "camping", because people don't stop crying about it. Every single time they implemented a new mechanic to avoid camping, survivors would take advantage of it and start abusing it.
So, I join @Technature question: What would you do to "nerf" camping without survivors abusing that new mechanic?
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Stop trying to take from killers the basic mechanics of putting pressure on survivors. Not all killers want to be animators and entertain survivors, they want to win too. And not every killer can create pressure by just chasing different survivors all match. Sometimes you have to camp and secure second stage, especially on weak killers and maps with a lot of resources.
There are enough counter plays. Against camping you have double save, Reassurance, Deli, genrush. Against tunneling you can tank hits, put DS, OTR, even get down for this survivor with Unb, you can sabo and finally genrush. It is pub survivors problem that they dont know how to do double save, they usually even scared to come for hook. A lot of times I had to come in front of hook and press emote 100 times before the other survivor nearby will stop hiding and come for tanking a hit. Of course it is more easy to ask for nerf the mechanic instead of learning how to counter it.
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So many mechanisms for dissuading or preventing camping and been suggested, or even tested, and so far they all result in abuse from bully squads. Simply put, camping is an essential mechanism of the game, that unfortunately gets abused by certain killers, and 'fixing' this isn't simple, as it just swings the other way into a state that's broken for survivors instead of killers.
There are a few that I think should be looked at though, which includes:
- Removal of hook grabs on healthy survivors.
- The game of chicken trying to grab/avoid a grab, dancing with each other and trying to outplay their ping, is frankly obnoxious, just like old Hatch standoffs, just like Eruption used to be, just like Dead Hard.
- Killers would still be able to still secure a hook trade when camping, they simply wouldn't be able to multiply hooks this way.
- Securing an unhook wouldn't require two survivors, one survivor could still make the save, as long as they were prepared for it to be a trade.
- Limited reduction in sacrifice speed, slowing down hook stages.
- Although pausing/slowing hook timers when the killer is in range has failed tests, it could be implemented with other conditions.
- For example, hook progress slows by 10% for each other survivor currently progressing an objective, be it gens, totems, chests, exit gates or healing. This gives survivors the wiggle room to make up ground in preparation for a hook save, or capitalise on campers by slamming gens, without undoing the pressure killers make when not camping. This would have to be disabled during EGC.
- Alternatively, simply increase all hook timers to say 70 or 80 seconds, but have this reduced to 60 seconds (or maybe even 50) once the exit gates are powered.
2 - Removal of hook grabs on healthy survivors.
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Dude, you made it sound like survivors have to mess up for a killer to get a quick down. And that is not the case. That's what I was getting at.
Fine, the devs can choose to just not do anything against camping. But if we actually end up with 24 second heals, or even just 20 second heals, enjoy watching your killer queue times sky rocket, because I fear exactly that will happen. And survivors can't be blamed for that.
Generally, if a killer is camping. You can try to go for hook trades, Simple as that. It's better than just rushing gens, especially if the killer is using Deadlock. With these healing changes, camping will just become a free 2 or 3k even more. If you think that's healthy for the game, great for you. But I bet most survivor players don't. Hence the increase in killer queue times, as I predict.
Camping is insanely unfun to go against. I don't care if you think it's balanced or not in what twisted way. People will have even more trouble going against it, and will simply decide to not play survivor anymore.
Increase hook phase duration from 60 to 75 seconds, and remove hook grabs. Easy as that. The systems that BHVR tested also simply sucked, if you add more coniditions to them, those could work as well. But BHVR might deem a system like that too complicated for their newer players.
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Just nerfing camping by itself is just a matter of increasing the hook timer. That's it. That's all it takes to make standing in front of a hook less efficient is to make it take longer.
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Hook timers can't just be indefinite though. If you make them too long, it provides no urgency for the survivors to go for the rescue, no incentive to get them off the hook when they could simply finish their gen and leisurely make their way to the hook after that.
So it's a balancing act to get timers in the right place.
I do think a little longer could work though, after all 70 seconds is still less time than it takes to repair a gen.
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And how many survivors are going to complain about "being hooked 3/4/5 minutes" or wanting even more a suicide button if hook times are longer, then? Did you not remember that "being hooked" and "doing gens" are the most boring things for survivors as their own words? Full post in this forum have being talked about those exact topics. That's why the nerfed the healing along the regression and not hook or gens times, because is an indirect way of dealing with those problems without making those time longer.
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