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I have roughly 4500 hours in Hillbilly. Over half a year of my waking life on this killer.
Comments
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Why can't behavior just talk to their people like how Ghost Ship Games does.
I feel like a lot of the negativity towards the development community would start to ceise if they had open lines of communication aside from Mandy. It feels like upper management has a big role in this stinky situation. Maybe all the grind time that the employees are forced to work between chapters is making them hate their own game. We don't want 3 month killers, we want a healthy game with happy developers Bhvr.
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yes? if people were for this change would they be this much backlash? would people like said streamer or Otz saying this is a dumb decision? you are the only person in this chat against it?
your asking me to prove why the earth is round. the evidence is in front of you? this post has over 100 discussions( one of the most popular posts) with almost everyone agreeing this is a dumb decision, look at anyone discussions/videos/whatever on it and the vast majority of people agree its a dumb decision.
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I don't think there are any peer reviewed studies on this topic my dude, but here is some supporting evidence that the person in the echo chamber isn't Vel. ;)
Twoknee isn't finished polling yet, but it's cool to see what other people think.
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yes? simply put would their be this much backlash? would said streamer and otz say this is a dumb decision? from what i can see no body has made a post saying this is a welcome change? nor videos or discussions. you are the only one for this change?
your asking me to show why the earth is round. the evidence is in front of you? look at anyone's videos/ discussions/ whatever and not a single one is approving of this change?
finally if we talking about evidense here what besides your personal opinion is billy unfun to play against? or badily designed? give me that evidense
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Reading the feedback from people that don't play Billy at all, or barely did is super obvious. Billy has a VERY low barrier to entry. You can easily play Billy by just using his chainsaw for mobility and M1ing people constantly, or back revving them, because it's so much easier with base-kit. That will work against newer players.
When you start going against better players, that is no longer the case and Billy is insanely slow base-kit. It's been long agreed upon by Billy players and enjoyers that Death Engraving should be base-kit (with no charge penalty), so the idea of engravings being nerfed is insane unless it's compensated for base-kit. You can so easily side step a Billy running base-kit even from like 5 feet away.
Billy can be played with very little learning curve, but he has a VERY high skill ceiling and difficulty curve. That should be okay. It's okay to have a difficult killer that requires a lot of practice. It is not okay to take a killer that is already difficult and just nerf him to where the difficulty is no longer rewarded with payoff.
Comparing Billy to Dark Souls is fine. You say that the games have no unique mechanics that aren't obvious, that's not true. There are many boss fights that you might not originally know there is a pincer attack, or a special mechanic for insane damage, and once you do, they become a lot easier. However, you know the basic mechanics of your character, dodging, blocking, attacking, just like any other killer in the game. But learning those special strats is what leads to you actually doing better and progressing. Easy barrier to entry, large skill / learning curve.
Take Nameless King - you know your character mechanics, easy barrier to entry. It takes you a few attempts to realize maybe not locking on with your camera is best for defeating the dragon stage. A few more attempts, you learn the patterns for dodges, etc...then all of a sudden...what...there is a SECOND stage with a different boss? The high skill curve.
Billy - You know your M1, you know how use the chainsaw to simply traverse, you can understand the overheat mechanic. That works a bit and you get better at learning when to back rev if needed, etc. This is your dragon phase. It took you a few matches to learn how overheat works, and how to not get spun during a back rev, but that's only enough to get through the "easy phase". Now, you're actually at Nameless King, which in theory would be the better survivors and the same tactics you already knew just weren't enough to deal with him. Simply knowing all of that is only enough to get you through phase 1 - Baby Billy phase. You still know your tactics and your abilities, but learning how to use them BETTER and the patterns of King / Survivors to down them. This is you learning how to curve, or recurve with Lo Pros / mind game.
Remember when you were saying a billy just simply flicks a lot and then downs you on a tile he shouldn't? That is the Billy paying attention to a survivor over committing to one side. If they do that, they pay for it. It's very easy to not deal with that if you just disconnect from the tile or pre-drop a pallet. Billy has to learn every piece of collision on every map. Why should he not be rewarded like other killers that also have to do this? i.e Blight / Wesker, etc. Both of those killers will easily down you faster than a Billy unless the survivors are very inexperienced.
Do you know what the game does if you learn those things? It lets you kill the boss. Nerfing engravings lets you learn how to kill the boss, but never actually be able to do it, because Billy is too slow base-kit. If you were still on the dragon phase, you could down the boss, but you're not, so you need better pathing /tactics/and possibly change your armor, etc to down King / Good Survivors.
Either way, I would say Billy is like a Dark Souls boss in a way, and he can be compared. Some people don't enjoy Dark Souls type challenges, others do. For those that don't, there is base-kit and Drift Billy that will let you down easier encounters, but if you're playing Billy in his current state, that's the payoff you're expecting. You're not sweating with either of those things.
The only acceptable reason for nerfing engravings is if they're giving billy Death Engraving (yellow) base-kit with no charge penalty. Also, punishing cross map usage of his chainsaw is very silly since you're only hurting the chillest of Billy players - Drift Billys.
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The difficulty with billy directly comes from the movement speed. It's mechanical and mental difficulty from having to time everything right ON TOP of correctly guessing their actions.
This change doesn't make billy harder, just weaker. The interactive part of the power in chase is the high movement speed, high sensitivity window. Any slower directly hamstrings both the difficulty and strength. He won't have the ability to curve to the same capacity, and just have to use his saw for backrevving/zoning.
That's not skillful or difficult, just in the same way a killer like legion isn't really skillful or difficult. We're speaking about MECHANICAL skill, which is a very raw and direct thing. Aiming is another one. And just because something's being overused definitely doesn't mean it needs to be adjusted. People enjoy OPTIONS. Movement speed in chainsaw sprint directly results in more options. Same reason people use dead hard, but the difference is that you have to spend hundreds to thousands of hours to develop the muscle memory behind curving. And billy exists in a state where he can be tuned for new players because I do agree some changes should happen to make him more tolerable, but the movement speed reduction only cuts off the dedicated playerbase. Another note, that muscle memory? It's tied to the movement speed. Nerfing addons that people have had around for 7 years means that 7 years of muscle memory is being dropped. Those people aren't going to want to relearn a weaker, less interactive killer.
And the evidence for the last point you mentioned will never be enough, you're clearly discrediting that purely off of what you see as ego. You're not looking to have a conversation. And that's fine if you don't like me because you think my word may have some inherent bias, but let's refocus on the main point, alright? The mention of me streaming has zero relevance to any point in your eyes, but that's no reason to make snide comments. It shows nothing but bad faith.
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yes? simply put would their be this much backlash? would said streamer and otz say this is a dumb decision? from what i can see no body has made a post saying this is a welcome change? nor videos or discussions. you are the only one for this change?
Well its funny isnt it, bHVR is the only ones who have the numbers that show that addon overperforming. So what does it mean when Otz or any streamer comes down to say its wrong, How do they know anything? They don't. So what makes their feedback more useful than others, than mine? It does not, its not even an argument, its a fallacy, argument from popularity.
I am willing to take bHVR's side, if the addons are overperforming then they should be nerfed even if I rather want the Killer Reworked. I have no reason to believe bHVR to be working maliciously here. Sorry if you find that strange.
finally if we talking about evidense here what besides your personal opinion is billy unfun to play against? or badily designed? give me that evidense
I like when I ask for evidence, you don't provide me some, you ask my for evidence of my opinion. That is Rich. Idk if it was not clear its my opinion. Like I don't claim every user thinks Hillbilly should be reworked. But some definitely claim like 90% of players have no issue with Hillbilly, only pleasant experiences.
I love your enthusiasm, but I have no idea who Twoknee is or how his youtube community is a representative sample of the dbd Community
Also that poll said, playing AS or against.
Statistics are not THAT easy.
You made a big response here and ill show you the time, which you show me. Now you don't use quotes here on the website so I'm unsure what each section is in response to.
The difficulty with billy directly comes from the movement speed. It's mechanical and mental difficulty from having to time everything right ON TOP of correctly guessing their actions.
This change doesn't make billy harder, just weaker. The interactive part of the power in chase is the high movement speed, high sensitivity window. Any slower directly hamstrings both the difficulty and strength. He won't have the ability to curve to the same capacity, and just have to use his saw for backrevving/zoning.
Sounds like more bad design to me, a set of addons should not be essential to his power on higher mmr. but to me, these points only show major issues with Hillbilly, which a rework could rectify. It does not really convince me to think that bHVR should let you keep an overperforming addon anyway. I talked to one of their former designers today, the guy who did those addons today, He says he knew they would come for those addons eventually.
Now if I understand that correctly and you believe those addons have that purpose, then perhaps those addons should be reworked into the Killer's basekit=? Then you have your own rework idea. But I am unsure how you can convince people of this because to anyone looking in, it just looks like everyone who plays billy at high mmr uses those addons cause they are best. You would have a good argument if this will cause a significant drop in Billy's Kill rate. But I would think bHVR could call that bluff because I know they can see the Killrate with/without those addons. I do get you I think, but its hard to confirm.
About the whole Hard part honestly you kind of just replied to a quip rather than my point on overperforming addons. Not really sure we will get anywhere discussing what is hard and what is not, pretty useless to talk about something so subjective. Weak or mechanical difficult makes it hard in like every dictionary. I do get you want a mechanically difficult Killer here.
I am also glad you agree Billy could use some changes, at least we agree on something now.
And the evidence for the last point you mentioned will never be enough, you're clearly discrediting that purely off of what you see as ego. You're not looking to have a conversation. And that's fine if you don't like me because you think my word may have some inherent bias, but let's refocus on the main point, alright? The mention of me streaming has zero relevance to any point in your eyes, but that's no reason to make snide comments. It shows nothing but bad faith.
No literally, if we could make bHVR put in a part in the next Survey that asks what is your favorite Killer to go again and if Hillbilly shows up as significantly well liked Killer to vs then I literally have to eat my words. Its rather rude you think me that dishonest.
I have no problem with you, only the arguments you have chosen to bring into this thread. That is why I quipped it.
Now weather you think Im bad faith or not means not much to me, but I do think im atleast responding directly to your replies and that isnt exactly how bad faith works mate. Maybe its an elaborate smokescreen or maybe Im here because the subject is just interesting to me.
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Why does otz opinion matter more than most? He is a fogwhisperer. He actually job for behavior is keeping the game healthy, half of his recommendations have gone into the game already? That's why he is not just some streamer. If anything your just some guy on a forum.
Also in any case as I wont be answering for other users but when you shown with evidence you simply dismiss it, when people give valid reasons for why billy does not deserve this nerf you either default to the addons are overperforming without even consulting why that is the case( not seeing the big picture)or simply ignore it in your response. You cherry pick what you want to argue against and your ego simply ignores the rest. I'll leave you with one saying friend
Never argue with a ignorant person, they will pull you down to their level and beat u with experience
And while the actual saying is with the term stupid, I dont belive u are stupid.
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Another response and round of suggestions by someone who actually plays Hillbilly.
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From the looks of it, it seems like they only judge add-on usage and performance relative to that killer's other add-ons. So if a killer only has a handful of add-ons that do anything, of course they'll be picked more than the rest of that killer's add-ons, and look like they're overperforming. This is the case with Billy. Nearly half of Blight's add-ons are ridiculously strong, so it makes sense that there is more variety in add-on usage rates, but it's possible the skill required to play Blight depresses their performance stats.
They're obviously balancing based off of stats that look like outliers without asking why they're outliers, or in the case of Blight, why certain add-ons aren't outliers despite being oppressively strong after a player reaches a certain skill level.
This is why I and so many others refuse to give BHVR the benefit of the doubt; not only do they not release the data, they don't bother explaining why the change is necessary, especially after Engravings have essentially done the exact same thing for 7 years. But now they're suddenly too strong? That just reeks of incompetence.
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You forgot something. BHVR don't nerf overperforming addons. They never did. Instead they nerf addons with high pick rates. Also let's not pretend that Engravings are overperforming. They aren't. Because Billy isn't overperforming. If they were really after overperforming addons Blight would have gotten nerfed a long time ago.
BHVR are either trying to end what they started nearly 3 years ago (killing Billy for whatever reason) or they once again do random stuff that no one asked for. Have you ever heard someone call for a nerf to Billy's Engravings? Because I haven't.
You are right that Hillbilly is overdue for some changes and I think most people agree with that. But all of these changes are BUFFS. No nerfs. This killer is already in a bad spot. He is way too hard for what payoff he offers (though it's already the highest possible payoff). If any of us invested the time we have on Billy on Blight, Oni or Nurse instead we would perform way better. Have you seen how Billy players perform on the new maps? Just take GoJ or Eyrie as an example. Both are horrible for Billy. The collisions and loop geometry make him feel clunky beyond reason. Most of us would be completely fine, if they nerfed the Engravings but compensated that by adding a bit more base speed. They aren't doing that though. Instead they flat out nerf him. They never stated that he was overperforming either. They just added that as if it was some minor change no one would care about.
You're telling us you spoke to a former designer at BHVR? How is anyone supposed to believe that? Until you can back up that claim everyone will just take it as made up, no offense.
The funny part about this is that no matter how much they nerf these addons, they will still remain the ones with the highest pick rates. Because his other addons are worthless. Literally. You have an addon that reduces your bump time by so little, that it doesn't make any difference, a meme addon that nerfs him, the Junkyard Airfilter that increases his overheat limit by 20% (I don't need this!) an addon that reduces his chainsaw noises by 30% (#########?), an addon that reduces his TR by 8 metres but only when overheated (Again #########?), Mother's Helpers, Leafy Mash and Black Grease are all way too gimmicky to ever be useful, the Low Kickback Chains which reduce the bumping time but don't help him otherwise (QoL as an addon, great), Tuned Carburretor which is too situational and comes with a heavy downside, Pighouse Gloves which will only give you value in a specific build on specific maps in a specific play style that would still be worse than playing normally without addons and his iri addons which could be combined to 1 addon and would still be mostly gimmicky.
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If certain addons are overperforming compared to other addons, there are several possible causes. Addons can also be OP without overperforming compared to the rest. Billy has 3 good addons, 3 decent ones and the rest are situational and unnoticable.
If a billy would like to use his power in chase like bubba, he needs to use a combination of his 3 better ones. These 3 are not excellent. Thy require skill, and dont automatically make him better, unlike c33 or MDR.
The "hard gameplay" we love is curving, and without these addons the survivor needs to make significant mistakes to get curved. So if we nerf the good curving addons, we wont curve nearly as much. Which is sad, because most billys and most survivors like curves.
Don't just take my word for it:
- Kyto did a community poll, in which Billy came out as the second most fun Killer to verse,
- Demi and Scottjund made a video each where he placed him in S-tier of theirfun to verse Tier list,
- AZHYMOVS made a community poll where Billy was also Second in ranking, He provided this graph as well.
Now I want to ask, why do you think he needs a rework and not a Buff?
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Why does otz opinion matter more than most? He is a fogwhisperer. He actually job for behavior is keeping the game healthy, half of his recommendations have gone into the game already? That's why he is not just some streamer. If anything your just some guy on a forum.
"He is the King, so he must be right" Biggest elitism energy here mate, that is all I can say.
you shown with evidence you simply dismiss it
You mean when Im shows non credible evidence. Some Youtuber isnt a good enough sample size.
when people give valid reasons for why billy does not deserve this nerf you either default to the addons are overperforming without even consulting why that is the case( not seeing the big picture)
I am yet to see a valid reason besides hearsay about those two addons, I even addressed that in my response. But I dont think bHVR even wants it that way. Addons being essential to usage of a Killer is just a bad idea.
or simply ignore it in your response. You cherry pick what you want to argue against and your ego simply ignores the rest.
If there is something you want me to address, simply @ my name and say "I want you to address ... "
From the looks of it, it seems like they only judge add-on usage and performance relative to that killer's other add-ons. So if a killer only has a handful of add-ons that do anything, of course they'll be picked more than the rest of that killer's add-ons, and look like they're overperforming. This is the case with Billy.
You cant really have an addon be that essential. Ill bet you half a camel that isnt the intention or public policy I think bHVR is fully aware that most people dislike Hillbilly's addons, if not then they can survey for that information (which maybe they should) but keeping an overperforming addon in the game, just because you guys feel its the only addons you got is not gonna fly I think.
Nearly half of Blight's add-ons are ridiculously strong, so it makes sense that there is more variety in add-on usage rates, but it's possible the skill required to play Blight depresses their performance stats.
Now I have seen whataboutism on this forum, and ofc some systems are related. But Blight is 100% not related to Billy, and yet he has been brought up again and again. Some other killer's addons not being touched isn't an argument for not touching a completely different killer. I really don't know why you guys try that. Blight will get his nerfs for sure, bHVR isn't a hypocrite for washing the floor when the hedge needs trimming too. Those are unrelated.
They're obviously balancing based off of stats that look like outliers without asking why they're outliers, or in the case of Blight, why certain add-ons aren't outliers despite being oppressively strong after a player reaches a certain skill level.
If those addons are outliers in every billy build that overperforms, they still need to be toned down. I dont see how saying "they didnt ask why" is even a good reason, first of all you assume they dont know how those addons work and second it disregards the question if its intended for those two addons to be essential. which I dont think is a train bHVR is running on.
Idd like for you to adress if you think those two addons are intended to be essential high mmr enabler addons.
This is why I and so many others refuse to give BHVR the benefit of the doubt; not only do they not release the data, they don't bother explaining why the change is necessary, especially after Engravings have essentially done the exact same thing for 7 years. But now they're suddenly too strong? That just reeks of incompetence.
Oof thats is rough Sailor. But I actually think the engravings have just risen since the last rework, slowly becoming part of overperforming billys again and again. idk how that is incompetency. Seems like a timely reaction to me.
BHVR don't nerf overperforming addons. They never did. Instead they nerf addons with high pick rates. Also let's not pretend that Engravings are overperforming. They aren't. Because Billy isn't overperforming. If they were really after overperforming addons Blight would have gotten nerfed a long time ago.
I don't see how you can demonstrate that bHVR does not nerf overperforming addons without access to the stats which you don't have. So how exactly do you know this besides your opinion? Also you might wanna look above about that Blight argument too.
BHVR are either trying to end what they started nearly 3 years ago (killing Billy for whatever reason) or they once again do random stuff that no one asked for. Have you ever heard someone call for a nerf to Billy's Engravings? Because I haven't.
Someone being mad about an addon is not required for bHVR to nerf it, like can you imagine. "Sorry, we cant nerf something because we have not received a complaint." Like come on. There is no way in Hell bHVR operates like this.
You are right that Hillbilly is overdue for some changes and I think most people agree with that.
This is why I advocate for a full Billy Rework, I think bHVR is just doing some routine maintenance on a Killer that really out to get a rework. But really they are not working hard on it, they just tweak a numbers that are overdue. I think if Billy needs some changes, but that requires an entirely diffrent campaign and as we seen in this thread. People dont want him reworked in case they lose the last 7 years of their life.
You're telling us you spoke to a former designer at BHVR? How is anyone supposed to believe that? Until you can back up that claim everyone will just take it as made up, no offense.
Yeah, its just an tidbit. This is why I believe it, I don't expect you to take that reason as justified.
Addons can also be OP without overperforming compared to the rest.
OP in a certain situation are SITUATIONAL then, not OP. Even so if that was true, that means those situations happen far too often and that would still justify them being toned down. There is no way bHVR is gonna rework all maps just for one Killer to make sure those situations dont happen as much.
The "hard gameplay" we love is curving, and without these addons the survivor needs to make significant mistakes to get curved. So if we nerf the good curving addons, we wont curve nearly as much. Which is sad, because most billys and most survivors like curves.
I don't think sliding around a Car like it has butter or soap on it is what bHVR was going for. Neither with Blight. I have never had a Billy do that to me and felt, wow great design, really fair and balanced. I don't recall seeing bHVR putting out a statement on that. if you can find me one Ill accept it.
About the people and polls that are not official, I really think you ought to do a really big poll to figure that out, but I don't think bHVR will release the polling.
Why do you think he needs a rework and not a Buff?
- Clunky and unwieldy to play.
- Terrible addons.
- Curving (which I don't think is intentional.)
it would be easier to address all this in a new Power, rather than repurpose the repurposed Power from 2016.
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Are you suggesting that Blight's addons are not overperforming?! I don't need to prove it to you. That should be obvious. If it's not to you, just tune in to a LillithOmen stream and you'll see exactly why Blight's addons are overperforming. No stats required. Besides, BHVR did never state that the Engravings were overperforming.
What most people want for Billy are flat out buffs. Buffs to his base kit. Buffs to some of his untertuned addons and a rework to his useless addons. Some small QoL changes don't outweigh this nerf, however. So, as long as they don't do more this is completely unjustified.
As long as BHVR don't show us any numbers, claiming that he is overperforming doesn't make any sense. I could also claim that I escape 100% of my matches as survivor without ever getting hit. How do you proof this is wrong? Obviously this is untrue but it's the same as with the Engravings' performance. Neither of us has anything to base their claims on other than experience and opinions. And since there seem to be very, very, VERY few people that think these addons are overperforming and a lot that don't, I'd say you are the one that would need to prove anything.
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Are you suggesting that Blight's addons are not overperforming?!
No. Are you suggesting Blight's addons will never get addressed?! ofc they will be.
As long as BHVR don't show us any numbers, claiming that he is overperforming doesn't make any sense. I could also claim that I escape 100% of my matches as survivor without ever getting hit. How do you proof this is wrong? Obviously this is untrue but it's the same as with the Engravings' performance. Neither of us has anything to base their claims on other than experience and opinions. And since there seem to be very, very, VERY few people that think these addons are overperforming and a lot that don't, I'd say you are the one that would need to prove anything.
No, cause it you knew the numbers they would have to debate you over every single decision they make.
It would waste their time SOO MUCH.
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If i have a pc and i decide to say f it lets remove the graphics card and run games purely on cpu, only to buy a brandnew pc due to bad performance instead of putting the graphics card back in, that would be idiotic.
If BHVR destroys a killer through hiliariously harsh nerfs, only to rework him due to bad performance instead of reverting some of the nerfs, that would be idiotic.
And apparently most people really like billy, and specifically mention curve billy as their fav type of billy. So do all of the people i scanned through think at least. If you dont agree with that, find me a somewhat popular creator that disagrees with that notion.
BHVR didnt intend a lot of elements that are now staples of the game, that people find fun. If they remove something a lot of people enjoy, proof in my previous post, that would be pretty dumb, would it not be?
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If BHVR destroys a killer through hiliariously harsh nerfs, only to rework him due to bad performance instead of reverting some of the nerfs, that would be idiotic.
bHVR isnt psychic. If what they think will solve it does not solve it then they will try something else. A rework should be one of those options.
BHVR didnt intend a lot of elements that are now staples of the game, that people find fun. If they remove something a lot of people enjoy, proof in my previous post, that would be pretty dumb, would it not be?
Not really, they have allowed Blight and Billy to run free with it. But if there are major problems with it, those parties will end.
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Billy died a long time ago friend. I say this as someone who put a lot of time into him before BHVR ruined him with a 3-5 step process that until now "ended" with the overheat.
This is a retired costume and the only level 3 legacy I have for killer.
"Leather face is a much more viable and open to other players kind of Killer, but you have to pay for him."
Go back to 2018 and BIlly was better than Nurse on some maps. Mind boggling isnt it? I suspect that marketing called up the devs and said : everyone is just playing Billy or Nurse. You gotta nerf Billy so people buy other killers (/queue Guinness Brilliant.gif).
Indoor maps were added as a way to nerf Billy/Nurse without adjusting their kit. This along with other map changes prevented you from having a direct path from A to B so that your movement became less effective as Billy. In case you didn't know - most of the time from 2016-2018 you could make "laps" around most of the maps as Billy. Everything was a 3 gen because you moved so far so fast.
Look at the state of DBD right now :
Trapper, Wraith and Hillbilly are all free but suck compared to other DLC killers. Huntress and Nurse are hard but powerful in the right hands (yet also free).
Somewhere between 2016-2018 The developer Dave said : DLC killers are "pay to lose". In other words they would not be pay to win. The devs obviously have changed their minds with that idea so you buy more DLC. On that note : did you ever notice that you can play survivor "for free" buying no DLC and have amazing access to strong perks? But if you want to play killer you need to buy DLC for gen slowdown (Deadlock is still paywalled behind Pinhead and has NEVER been in the shrine), detection and to have better options in chase.
I feel bad for anyone who never got to play "flick billy" in 2016. That was a monstrosity and it was the only deserved Billy nerf. What do you mean Billy can still flick? - said the sweet summer child in 2023.
Insta saw Billy from 2016 was "fine". There was still counterplay and it is good to have a strong addon combination for killers.
There was a quote from Zubat around 2018 where he said something like, " Most of the time it's faster to just M1 good survivors but using the Chainsaw is more fun and stylish."
The overheat system absolutely destroyed any desire I had to play Hillbilly. His License might as well have been revoked like Demo. That nerf was the last straw for me in a long line of little nerfs that added up over about 4-5 years.
The only thing Billy needed was a overheat mechanic when around a survivor on a hook. And that should have been extremely punishing to the point where it is 5-8 times as severe as the current mechanic.
But you know the hilarious thing? Leatherface doesn't even have collision with hook poles when he is in his power and can rev his chainsaw without penalty at a hook because he is the "pay to win" version of Billy. You can change my mind at any time BHVR but you won't because I am right.
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I'd rather like to play against a double engraving Billy than a Blight with C33, Alc Ring, Crow, Rat or Adre Vial or a Spirit with MD Ring and Amulett (I don't mind Tombstones).
A Billy with Engravings is always fun to verse and I always appreciate the people who still play him for more than daylies.
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Not every comparison is a case of whataboutism, and doing so shows you're just arguing in bad faith (as usual). Billy and Blight are both mobile killers who literally move at the exact same movement speed in power, and who both have (at least) two add-ons that grant movement speed in power and stack. Blight is literally one of the most appropriate killers to compare Billy to.
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Not at all, them moving at same speed and addons are a coincidence.
Except ofc, the addons are designed by the same man. But that is irrelevant to any balance discussion, so it its whataboutism.
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Do you even hear yourself? "They were designed by the same person/people, but it's a coincidence"? The same person picked 230% twice by random chance? You're not even trying at this point. You're just a contrarian that wants to be right. No point engaging with you.
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That does not make them related so that when Hillbilly's addons is nerfed then blight's must too, which is the point I responded to and that point is not valid and bHVR does not balance that way either.
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Didn't actually know who you were till today GTvel, really good Billly.
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BHVR, please please please listen to Vel and take what he has to say about Billy into careful consideration. I believe the changes you are proposing to make to engravings are a big mistake, and Vel lays out the reasons perfectly.
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"You cant really have an addon be that essential." you can, and his engravings are essential. If you hate the killer or have something against the killer, go play Knight, it seems you're a party killer anyways. It also seems you're on a warpath trying your absolute best to get this man nerfed even harder than he has been over the years. Maybe you got paired against a Billy that stood at one tile and went left n right trying to curve for 50 years, but that ain't all of us. Objectively speaking Billy is more fun to vs than a camping 3 gen strat killer, there is no disagreeing here, it's pure facts. I'm talking about Billy's who actually play optimally not stand at one tile for the entire game. Yes, as a Billy main myself, that can get boring. But at the end of the day, they're still having fun, and it isn't a camping 3 gen killer... so, always better regardless.
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Even if it took longer, it's good to have higher skill ceiling killers, most games have them. Widow from Overwatch is a good example.
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-"it's good to have higher skill ceiling killers"
Is it? Because Nurse and Blight have a complete kit we have to water down any perk ideas because a perk that would help trapper "not suck" would make nurse an even more powerful killer.
You can fight me on this but every killer should be no worse than 15% worse than Nurse.
Every killer in DBD should have :
- Movement powers OR long range attacks
- Strong Antiloop
- Lethal Chases
We cant have Doctor at one end of the Spectrum and Blight with numerous broken addons at the other end. I would love to see every killer that doesn't have movement/long range attacks just become a 120% movement speed base killer. Trapper, Doctor, Pig, Nemesis, etc. would all just be 120% speed and that would make their antiloop better and it would serve as movement.
Wraith and Sadako already have movement so they don't get movement but they could get some kind of buff to be better in chase. We could go down the list and fix all killers with some very simple broad strokes.
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I agree and disagree with some of your points.
The main point I disagree with is when you brought up the whole 'walk back and forth revving and then boom insta-down'. I don't think like this about that. Most people would be impressed or caught in shock from the Billy downing them in that way (I've literally seen a compilation of great Billy mains who did this against Twitch Streamers to see their reaction) and almost all of them were surprised, shocked, impressed, etc and none of them were salty or mad they just got downed.
Its definitely not boring. I love going against Hillbillys and so do so many others, b/c they're rare and killer interaction with them is insanely fun. Its the opposite of boring. You want boring, go against Legion or a Nurse.
I'm completely fine with Hillbilly requiring A LOT of skill and experience, albeit that should be rewarded by being a stronger killer. I think everyone can agree he could use changes that push him up the ladder and not further down. This current change to engravings spits in all those people's faces that put thousands of hours into him over the course of years, when the last good thing about him is about to be gutted.
I feel for all the Billy mains right now. It must also be frustrating seeing Blight go another update without his addons being looked at.
Hillbilly is 1 of the most fun killers to go against, I know a lot of people feel the same way. They are a rare endangered species that need to be protected.
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The main point I disagree with is when you brought up the whole 'walk back and forth revving and then boom insta-down'. I don't think like this about that. Most people would be impressed or caught in shock from the Billy downing them in that way (I've literally seen a compilation of great Billy mains who did this against Twitch Streamers to see their reaction) and almost all of them were surprised, shocked, impressed, etc and none of them were salty or mad they just got downed.
That isn't going to make me find it impressive, shocking. mainly I feel a sense of wanting to sleep.
lucky Billys are dying out. vause If I had to endure that more often idd go harder on bHVR for it. its absolute bull.
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May I ask, what are the killers you like to against? Because mindgaming and looping seem to be the opposite of what you enjoy as a survivor.
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Spirit, Plague, Wraith, Dredge, Nemesis, Sadako ,Demogorgon comes to mind.
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With the exception of Spirit, these are all killers that require you to loop and mind game. Spirit is a bit different since you play more around her power than you play around loops. I had some trouble following you when you said that you "want to sleep" when a Billy is going for a curve. That is literally picture perfect material of mindgaming and looping, much like the other killers you stated. Demogorgon and Nemesis will also try to hit you with their power and that is best achieved by mindgaming and getting you out of position.
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You sound like Im offended a Killer would hit me with their Power, but in reality those killers have nicely balanced power.
But none of these Killers slide off a car and gallops me down a Mach 2. That is the stuff that makes me want to go to bed.
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Friend, this is a discussion about Billy. The guy with the chainsaw. Not the guy, that injects himself with whatever that is in his vial. Billy can't hug tech. He needs to curve around objects. Otherwise he'll suffer a 3 seconds stun. Billy is (for the most part) completely unable to slide off an object. There is, I believe, one exception left (that I won't name, sorry not sorry devs) but all other tiles have either hitboxes that are somewhat ok (these are very rare and far between) or absolutely unfair (invisible hitboxes, little twigs or things he can't see even with Shadowborn) or completely unmanageable with his power (certain trees and bushes come to mind).
Just do me a favor and play 1 game of Billy. By your own words it should be quite ease to hit these curves because you just 'slide off' of cars.
It sounds like you have no idea what to do against a Hillbilly so here is some advice: You can use hitboxes, mindgames and also his own lack of speed against him and just go ONE SINGLE STEP out of the way to make him miss. Damn, this is so bad you can even bodyblock some chainsaw sprints (though I wouldn't advice you to do so)!
You are one of the very few people that don't like Hillbilly. Otherwise we would see some more people complaining about him. I think this is more of a you problem than it is a Hillbilly problem.
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By your own words it should be quite ease to hit these curves because you just 'slide off' of cars.
Never said it was easy, they are using an unintended mechanic that bHVR has left in.
You are one of the very few people that don't like Hillbilly. Otherwise we would see some more people complaining about him. I think this is more of a you problem than it is a Hillbilly problem.
Nah, he is so rarely played and when hes played, they don't play that way. People have just unfortunately accepted it and that's the reason. So I might as well take it to bHVR, raise the concerns and have them take a good hard and honest look at the Killer and fix the issues they have neglected.
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If it was unintended, there wouldn't be an increased turning rate to begin with. That is not a bug and it's not useful for anything else. For mobility you don't need it, for running in a straight line it cannot help you. This is intended. That is also the reason why they take shorter chainsaw sprints into account. You will never go for a 10m sprint otherwise because it wouldn't not provide any value.
Most people, that play Hillbilly will play him that way. Newer players don't pick him at all because he is so punishing. And the people that play him, play him for exactly that mechanic. He is mostly played by people that either main him or are naturally (for example Otz) good enough to do well with him. Not going for curves means you can only use the chainsaw for back revving and mobility. His mobility is overshadowed by many other killers and back revving is boring for one and not really possible against good survivors.
Fortunately for you, BHVR will continue to butcher this killer. I guess the few people that don't like him are more important than the people that do like him. Back when there were way more Hillbilly players, most people agreed that he was fun to go against (with the exception of insta saw) as well. This has nothing to do with his currently abysmal pick rate. But here we are. A killer nobody complained about in that way, not even you as far as I can tell (didn't see any posts about it and doubt I would have missed that), is getting yet another nerf.
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Honestly, there does not need to be a post of someone complaining about an addon for bHVR to nerf them. bHVR are perfectly able to see which combo of addons the best performing Hillbillys are using. I think they stick out like an infected thumb.
I can complain plenty about Hillbilly if you ask me.
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Funnily enough, in the case of Hillbilly these statistics wouldn't tell you anything. Why would a good Hillbilly run any other addon? Engravings at least provide some consistent value even, if they're not as good as they could be. Also they provide the exact value Billy needs. More speed. Even if they only added 5% speed they'd still be his best addons (right after LoPros of course). His other addons are all worthless. Literally worthless.
I've played douzens of games with each addon, even committing full builds to getting value out of them and I can tell you; it doesn't work. Name 5 Billy addons that would actually give me an advantage. Something useful. Something that I'd need. You're gonna have a hard time with that. Higher turning rate only works on specific maps, so I'd have to burn a map offering as well and be lucky enough for the survivors not to send me somewhere else instead. Overheat addons don't help me out in the slightest, since I don't overheat anyway. His green addons are all incredibly gimmicky (besides Doom Engraving and Low Kickback Chains, which only help when you mess up). 3 of his purple addons are either bad or gimmicky as well. His iridescent addons are the definition of gimmicky and don't help you at all against survivors that have the power of 2 human eyes and a brain. Only one of his brown addons is somewhat useful and that comes with a massive downside (Heavy Clutch). 2 of his yellow addons are completely pointless. The only generally good addons he has are the Engravings and the LoPros. His other somewhat useful addons are still weak af and too situational to be good.
Something performing the best does not mean it's overperforming. Billy isn't overperforming. Period. If he was we'd have seen that with the last kill rates or the ones before. Because since he has not received a single buff. Quite the opposite in fact. It's been nerfs and shadow nerfs as well as reworked maps, which are all horrible for him, no exceptions.
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I disagree, if an addon combo in particular is causing a high kill rate bHVR needs to bring out the hammer.
If not by that logic no addon could ever be nerfed.
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That's exactly the issue! Billy doesn't have a high kill rate. If he did, we'd have seen that. Since the last kill rates things only got worse for him. So his kill rate suddenly rising wouldn't make any sense. And even if it did, that would have nothing to do with Engravings because they weren't touched in nearly 1 1/2 years. If anything it would be more realistic for his kill rate to have fallen. Every new map screws him over, every reworked map becomes horrible for him and he got nerfed multiple times (base kit). If his kill rate did miraculously sky rocket however, wouldn't it make more sense to instead revert the changes they made to his Engravings in 5.3.0? Because back then they were considered weak enough for a buff. Instead they bring out the heavy weapons and butcher him yet again.
Your speculations are based on Hillbilly being too strong with these addons. How would you even know that? BHVR NEVER said that Hillbilly was overperforming. LITERALLY NEVER. Not even when they reworked him.
There were never official stats where we could see his kill rate being too high. And since he didn't get any buffs in 1 1/2 years even speculating in that regard makes no sense.
This is the last I'll say on that matter since we're talking in circles. There is literally no base to your claims other than "BHVR wouldn't nerf him, if he wasn't too strong.", even when they did so before.
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That's exactly the issue! Billy doesn't have a high kill rate. If he did, we'd have seen that. Since the last kill rates things only got worse for him. So his kill rate suddenly rising wouldn't make any sense.
bHVR would not do anything unless there was a good reason, I can only see the reason for those changes being the Killrate with those addons being higher. This theory is continued from having talked to the former developer, saying he knew those addons were very good. I have now also talked to loads of Hillbilly experts and seen the gameplay those addons enabled. Those are my reasons.
By this point its a surprise if the performance rate was not very high with those addons. Sure, only bHVR can tell us if they are.
We can ask bHVR to peel back the curtains for us.
This is the last I'll say on that matter since we're talking in circles. There is literally no base to your claims other than "BHVR wouldn't nerf him, if he wasn't too strong.", even when they did so before.
Then name a part which you can prove was not overperforming, but that bHVR nerfed anywway. You cant.
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"bHVR would not do anything unless there was a good reason" - Emeal 2023.
I see you're new to this game.
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We can have a discussion about what a good reason is, but you cant prove me wrong cause you don't have statistics.
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You do realize that by that logic applied neither can you uphold your point since you don't have evidence either... And since by the rules of a debate statements presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence your whole point is basically worthless as well...
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Yes it might be worthless, but thats not how debate rules are, debates are pretty diverse. I think what you mean is about evidence for a proposition, which has nothing to do with debates and more to do with Epistemology. furthermore there are not different logics that you can pick and chose from. There is logic you apply to a topic of discussion and then you examine that and take in the critiques of your arguments.
But actually in a debate its bad to be caught looking like you don't know the answers, so I can certainly understand how you feel you have to move the burden of proof unto me. as if It was not valid criticism of your arguments to not have data to back it up. It seems these days its more important to argue impactfully and not honestly or within boundaries of evidence.
Regardless of how many Hillbillys come to talk to me, Ill write them a response, its the least I can do, even if they are most interested in owning me in a debate. :D
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The engravings nerfs feel really bad. They didn't even mention the increased charge time in the dev update. 2.5s base, 2.875s with one engraving, 3.25 with two, and less speed over all.
I usually run green engravings with some other misc addon, for a nice combo of speed and whatever else (turn rate, lopro, etc), and it just... feels bad.
The overheat changes also make me question what purpose overheat even serves, at this point.
Cross-map charges and mobility weren't an issue with Billy, based on how they remained untouched for literally years even after overheat. Overheat was a pain in chase for inexperienced billy players, though..
Now, suddenly, they nerf cross map charges to make room for less overheat during loops-- but why? His mobility was untouched for years after the rework, and suddenly they have to get nerfed to make room for chase usage. Which doesn't seem strong enough to warrant having overheat given they're making it heat you up less.
But if they kept both low it'd be largerly irrelevant as a mechanic-
So why have it at all?
It serves no benefits, other than acting as an artificial weakness on a B-tier killer.
At this point, the fact that they're increasing Overheat for map mobility feels like more of a justification to keep the mechanic around rather than removing it outright, when seemingly neither usage (mobility or chase) warrants having it.
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First of all, that was the first statement I even made in this post, so I don't know what you are talking about for the most part...
Also I did not give you the burden of proof alone, I only stated that when you or anybody else for that matter makes a statement you have to back it up with something for it not be easily dismissed... You claimed they would have a good reason for every change they make without providing evidence... Therefore that statement can be dismissed, same goes for things overperforming and therefore getting nerfed... That is also just an assumption, unless they stated that as the reason for toning down the addons...
As for the debate things, I've been part of the debate club of my university for around 2 years and was even on a few tournmanets... Yes the rules can be diverse but no matter if you debate in BP (British Parliament) or OPD (open parliament debate), when you just claim stuff without providing evidence or at least a somewhat logical explanation for stuff then either the other team or the juror will just dismiss your argument that easily... In court that rule applies to facts that are beneficial to you, so you can admit things without the need to prolong the whole case that help the opposite side... But since this is not a 1v1 standpoint with only two possible standpoints this does not seem appropriate. So in summon you cannot just make stuff up without providing evidence or explanation and expect people who want to dismiss that statement to deliver more than just a counter-statement dismissing your point.
Also yes, logic cannot be partially applied, I agree on that, I however do not see how that changes anything?
As for the Billy point, I don't even play Billy, but I really love the stuff good Billys can do and think it's said to punish those guys despite the enormous amount of hours they put into him.
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Here's the thing, if you're good, double engravings are much easier to play around than most other addons. Double engravings are factually, not his strongest addons. They're the most fun and difficult, but definitely not the best. Never have been. So, what point are you trying to make here...?
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And I've tested the addons, exactly what I described is the situation. Billy is now able to camp somebody for 80 seconds while revving with doubles, he has no high end skill ceiling, and overheat basically doesn't exist outside of circling the map with basekit/boots. Double engravings are basically unusable in chase. Muscle memory is also drastically different, which is a further thing to drive experienced players away from the killer.
The fun part about him, and the entire game, is the chase. He's balanced on a knife's edge with the movement speed gain/loss as is, if the engravings aren't kept the same rev time and movement speed, he basically can't curve against anyone experienced. It was possible before, if you were really good at billy. He's just extremely good at zoning + map traversal, and very little else.
He's stronger, yes, but he's stronger in every way that harms the game, and weaker in the way he adds to it best. Chase interaction is everything for what makes him fun, and there's very little of that now. \
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