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The real problem is CAMPING, TUNNELING and SLUGGING.
BHVR please reconsider your position on camping, tunneling and slugging. I've been trying the new PTB and to be honest the changes on healing were not that bad when playing against "fair" killers who went for multiple chases and didn't tunnel off hook. The real problem were the killers that did use those strategies to secure a 4k. They had it easier than before because of the healing changes:
Camping is easier because a good chunk of the hooking phase goes down before someone can heal/self-heal. Doing gens is now slower (90 secs) so staying on gens while the killer camps someone from 1st hook til sacrifice is not an option.
Tunneling is easier because after getting someone off the hook it's impossible to heal fast enough before the killer comes back. Hiding is not an option either, cause the killer usually comes back to the hook right after they receive the unhook notification so they have time to check around covers or follow the unhooked person's moans before a heal can be completed.
Slugging is easier because survivors can't pick themselves up and recovering and healing are slower because of the healing changes.
Please BHVR, focus your attention on these problems first before making more changes to the base mechanics. By allowing these strategies you take away everybody's fun: survivors' cause they don't want to play gen simulator AND want to be able to make a comeback and killers' cause they feel like they need to engage in these strategies to win.
If you take care of these issues, you can then revisit killer strength so they don't feel the need to resort to such strategies.
SOME SUGGESTIONS:
- Double hook timer on both phases
- Make hook timer stop if killer is in close proximity and not in a chase or looking directly at the hooked person from afar
- Remove hook timers completely but make unhooking attempts progress hook state
- Base current DS on every unhook until conspicuous action or someone else is hooked (remove survivor collision while active and don't let it activate from locker grabs). Doesn't work after exit gates are powered.
- Make it so hook states are shared. For example, no one can die on hook until 5 total hooks are done. Survivors directly die on second hook after these 5 total hooks.
- Base unbreakable like in that past PTB, but make something like a new status effect called Helpless which always affects people that enter the dying state. While Helpless, you can't get up by yourself. Killer addons and perks could affect this status effect.
- Let dying survivors crawl and recover at the same time (something like: stay still = 100% recovery speed, move and recover = 45% recovery speed and 45% crawling speed, move and not recover = 100% crawling speed)
All these changes incentivize survivors to play smart and cooperating while incentivizing killers to go for multiple people instead of focusing just one person.
Comments
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Also please make addons' revisions more often and take a look especially at Blight's, Spirit's and Nurses'.
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- Double hook timer on both phases
wouldn't go for double, but longer is fine
- Make hook timer stop if killer is in close proximity and not in a chase or looking directly at the hooked person from afar
they tried it, didn't work
Remove hook timers completely but make unhooking attempts progress hook state
there should be pressure from this, it should never be something you can ignore as a survivor
- Base current DS on every unhook until conspicuous action or someone else is hooked (remove survivor collision while active and don't let it activate from locker grabs). Doesn't work after exit gates are powered.
too complicated, just buff DS back to 5 sec
Make it so hook states are shared. For example, no one can die on hook until 5 total hooks are done. Survivors directly die on second hook after these 5 total hooks.
broken for SWF, terrible for soloq. I really don't want one troll who gave up use all my hookstates
Base unbreakable like in that past PTB, but make something like a new status effect called Helpless which always affects people that enter the dying state. While Helpless, you can't get up by yourself. Killer addons and perks could affect this status effect.
something like this (base unbreakable) would have to be implemented with lots of requirements, or some counter mechanic like they tried on PTB. Problem is that it just gets complicated. You want new mechanic to be simple.
Let dying survivors crawl and recover at the same time
Not sure about %, but might be fine. I don't really think slugging is that big of a deal atm to worry about this now tho.
All these changes incentivize survivors to play smart and cooperating while incentivizing killers to go for multiple people instead of focusing just one person.
Not really making them play smart. Most of those changes would give survivors bigger room for error instead. That's not playing smart.
It's also not incentivizing killer in any way, rather punishing him for not doing it. That's different.
BBQ and POP were incentivizing killer to focus on multiple people (leaving hook), right now killers simply have no reason to do it.
Camping doesn't seem really like an issue in my games. At least not 5 gen level camping, that's super rare.
Proxy camp will always be a thing, there is not really a way to remove it, but target is usually unhooking survivor. This will get nerfed along with pain resonance nerf, goal was to recycle survivors on same hook. So I guess it's good pain resonance will be useless.
Tunneling is, was, will be an issue. It's simply best way to win by far. If you manage to remove survivor at 3 gens, you won. Nothing can beat that right now. If you have someone on dead hook, hooking survivor who wasn't hook yet gives you nothing.
There is more tunneling for several reasons, two main reasons are nerf BBQ (me and lot of other killers wanted stacks even by losing the game) and DS nerf, because killers don't respect it anymore.
If you want to stop tunneling it would be better approach to create a reason to focus multiple survivors.
Let's be honest, they won't go for approach of punishing killers for not doing this. Why? Look at queue times... I have yet to see evening where killers don't have 100% BP.
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Well, to be honest I'm not against punishing killers for resorting to these strategies. If they are removed completely or very unincentivized then they can give killers what they need to maintain pressure like base tracking for hiding survivors or generators being worked on, rewards on hooking different survivors consecutively, some form of travelling around the map, more accessible exposed status effects without the need of addons...
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The more they buff killers the more aggravating these playstyles become and the harder they are to counter. Before the last big meta shakeup last year tunnelling/camping/slugging were manageable because survivors had tools to use against it. DS, DH etc.
Killers can't receive any meaningful buffs until tunnelling and camping are no longer an issue. It's a fundamental flaw in the game that for some reason the devs seem unwilling to resolve.
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The real problem is there's no separation between casual players and competitive ones.
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Overall, I agree with you and the reason I absolutely despise these upcoming changes is because rather than address what has already become the #1 reason solo survivor is miserable (hard tunneling/camping being literally stronger than its ever been without involving moris), the next changes are actually going to make it even worse.
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You really hate it if a killer does ANYTHING to win except mindlessly chase people through connected tiles until all the gens are done, huh?
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Killers shouldn't camp, tunnel or slug at 5 gens.
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And there's that "5 gens" argument again.
If Killers can't do those things at 5 gens, why are you allowed to heal, flashlight save, and loop at 0 hooks?
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I don't get your point, gens take 90 seconds to finish. If you're chasing a Survivor for that long you need to learn how to drop chases and find someone who's not so good at looping you and go back to that Survivor when all of the pallets are gone so they have nothing left to work with, trust I learned the hard way too.
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Also don't assume that I'm a survivor main just cuz I don't find it fun to Camp, tunnel or slug at 5 gens
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Let's take a step back and think this through:
WHY is it not okay to camp, tunnel, and slug at 5 gens? What is the reason.
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Because slugging is a risk/reward scenario and sometimes necessary.
If you have a person down and see another waiting with a flashlight it would be stupid to pick up. If you play Oni and have your power on, see somebody on Infectious Fight it would be stupid to not try to get another down. However in both scenarios you risk that the survivor you downed first gets picked up. Slugging is a risky play for a Killer and rightfully so.
If you feed Oni or Plague their power on 5 generators or mess up the attempt at a flashlight save you should get punished which involves slugging. Simple as that.
Camping is mostly dead with Reassurance. However I have no issue to increase the hook timer by 15 seconds and buff Insurance and Kinship by the same amount. However consider that there is the option of "teammate introduced camping": If a survivor loops the Killer right next to the hook or runs to the hook with the Killer on their heels, the Killer should not be punished and the survivor should not get rewarded for their poor decision making.
Finally tunneling. This can go to hell: Buff Decisive Strike back to 5 seconds, maybe even a bit more. That should do the job. Deterrence is the best way to make Killers play a certain way.
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It should be considered unsportsmanlike or not playing the game properly.
If you camp or tunnel that Survivor doesn't get the opportunity to play the game so they don't get to experience how fun this game really is ( win or lose ) in that match, and if every match is like that why would they continue to put their time and money toward a game that they're not having fun in?
Slugging is the same but it's counted towards every Survivor that is forced to bleed out because they are either constantly being picked up and then knocked down or they're waiting their turn for you to hook them which might take a while because you could forget where they last were and then they never get onto a hook or you could decide not to hook them at all and force them to bleed out which is a complete waste of everybody's time, which has happened to me as a Survivor hence why I switched to killer.
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I just don't get the strategy and slugging and camping or tunneling at 5 generators??? I said this to someone else I play killer too I'm not opposed to slugging camping or tunneling but why at 5 generators how is that fun? How is it a strategy when the game has just begun and you have time to get a few hooks in? I get more for case when I don't camp slug or tunnel 5 gens or not.
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And that's the problem, you are not punishing killers, you are giving survivors an advantage.
Most of the things you said would basically become the next mechanic that survivor will abuse in a per game basis, like it happened with every single mechanic they tried to implement to "solve" camping and tunneling.
Even the basekit Endurance and Haste they added to alleviate tunneling is most of the time used as a free body block instead of use it to get the hell out of the hook and reach a loop. Then they get killed again, and then complains about being tunneled.
Also, start adapting to the changes to healing. Hook healing is now more dangerous that it was before (because fresh news: Healing in hook never was a good idea, less so if you want to avoid getting tunneled). So, stop healing under the hook.
The only thing I think you are right is about the recovery time. They should buff it up to 75% so it is 32 seconds as before, with the last 5% being 1.2 seconds to avoid bully squads to simply body block the killer as they know one of them would get up with Unbreakable and just recover everyone else.
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Okay, it's not fun, basically.
So why then, at 0 hooks, which is the Killer version of 5 gens, are Survivors not expected to hold back THEIR gameplay? Why do we gatekeep Killers and not Survivors?
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As Oni the strategy is quit simple: I have my power and I want to get something out of it. If I down one survivor and see another nearby I try to get a second down while my power is active.
Usually I injure one survivor, absorb their blood until I get my power while looping them and then make a decision: Do I continue the chase or do I activate my power and try to get the jump on another survivor?
That survivors are at 5 generators has little to do with my decision. However I will not play my Oni badly just because survivors where not able to get a generator done by the time I first get my power. Most survivors do and sometimes I get 2 generators done by the time I am ready, especially when my first hit gets delayed by a good looper. This is Onis nature with risk/reward.
Why should I play this differently on 5 generators?
I am not talking about a 4 minute slug-fest here. Just about 30 seconds to get something out of my power, then come back and go for the pick up. Still I get why people slug sometimes if there is another target nearby.
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Not every Survivor brings flashlights, flash bangs or toolboxes ( for sabotaging )
When I started having a problem with flashlights and flash bangs I brought in a lightborn to counter it. On top of that I brought lethal pursuer because it gives life born an additional 2 seconds of seeing the Survivor.
To stop survivors from taking protection hits I brought in StarStruck, that also helps with sabotaging survivors sure the one I'm carrying will probably wiggle off but at least I knocked another one down and can hook them instead.
Also remember that flashlights and toolboxes will eventually run out of charges and Flash bangs are only available for as long as that Survivor is able to charge it by working on a gen.
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So, what you are saying right now is that you adapted to the strategies survivors was using against you instead of pretending for the survivors to simply play the way you wanted so you have it easy to win and have your fun? Crazy!
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I'm not asking that.
I'm asking why do Killers have to play bad on purpose and avoid using strong tactics when the other team is at 0% completion of their objective, but it is perfectly acceptable for Survivors to go hard at zero hooks?
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Yeah you want value, I've gone against plenty of Onis who get 4ks without slugging. That's just my take on the subject.
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No one said Killers had to play Bad but if you get someone down you should put them on the hook otherwise you risk a different Survivor saving the one you down and therefore you're still at no hooks which is on you.
And what I said about those perks doesn't take away from answering your question, after all those perks were designed to solve certain problems
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I'm not trying to be hostile
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I never asked for anyone to solve a problem. I'm calling out this rhetoric of "At 5 gens?!"
The number of generators doesn't matter. A Survivor is never, EVER going to play worse just because you don't have any hooks. He's never going to say to his SWF "Guys, he has zero hooks, stop doing gens." But that is what people are asking Killers to do with their "at 5 gens" argument. They are trying to gatekeeper Killer tactics, but it is a double standard because they would never expect the reverse.
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I think the "at 5 gens" was first brought up because both sides know that the Killer is not at risk of losing a match when they're still five generators to be done, so if that's the case then why Slug why Camp why Tunnel?
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You didn't ask but still those perks are there for certain situations, so why not use them? Instead of complaining about how unfair this game is?
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1.) Because you can lose generators FAST. It is entirely possible, while in first chase, to lose 3 generators in a matter of seconds of one another. It's a tactically stupid idea to go "I'm at 5 gens, so I'm safe". That 5 can vanish QUICK.
2.) I'm not complaining the game is unfair. I'm saying the "at 5 gens" argument is a hypocritical double standard.
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Again no one is saying Killers have to play Bad there's just three play styles that are unnecessary at five generators.
So you're spending too much time in a Chase then, again that's on you learn to drop chases.
Learn how to keep pressure on generators by switching up your build try Dead Man's switch for one, or merciless storm, or scourgeooks, or if you're not getting hooks try hex ruin.
There's also bamboozle that can help me chases a shorter, try that hes perk that blocks pallets from being dropped, there's one another park it's a hex and it blocks windows but I forget what it's called.
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The five gen argument is valid, whether you agree with it or not.
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It is not valid and you have provided no argument to say that it is. Especially when you saying "no one ie saying you have to..." when this forum has posts made daily whining about camping, tunnelling, and slugging. Killers are absolutely told not to do these things, and are called names if they do.
The number of gens does not matter.
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I specifically said before that killers are not at risk of losing at five generators, we don't need to slug to get a 4K or camp or tunnel.
There are perks to prevent survivors from doing certain things like taking protection hits or making chases last so long, and there are even regression perks so that the generators will take longer for survivors to do.
It's not anyone's fault but your own that you don't want to utilize all of the useful perks that Killers have.
Also yes the community doesn't like camping slugging or tunneling but the devs allow it so no you don't have to play a certain way, you don't have to not Camp, tunnel or Slug it's just not preferred by the community.
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Perks have absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever. This is about the community treats its members, nothing more.
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If you get called names report them.
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I don't know what to tell you other than report the people who call you names in end game chat.
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Also how did this go from gameplay toxic community members? If you're having fun why do you care what other people say? All I was trying to do was voice my opinion on certain play styles and answer your questions on why I think that way.
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You're saying you get 4 stack swf every game? how do you know? Cuz when I played Survivor my only option was to solo queue cuz I don't know anyone who still plays dead by daylight.
Items run out of charges, and if survivors are fighting tooth and nail to prevent hooks how could they possibly be getting generators done at the same time?
This goes back to you not wanting to change your build, or not accepting you when you get out played, or you committing to chases for too long.
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At no point did @Simfeliz say anything in their post about SWFs. You are making a strawman argument. You still think this is about builds. It's not. This has nothing to do with perks, or medits, or "getting outplayed".
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Im amazed so many people buy that 5gens argument.
Its jarring especially when combined with the good ol' "didnt play the game", like @Mane did.
Survivors dont have an arbitarily chosen time limit theyre entitled to "play the game". Getting chased and failing to escape still is playing the game. Additionally it's disengenious to ignore the stuff a survivor mightve done before getting found by the big bad camper.
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@Raptorrotas @WesCravenFan @Simfeliz
Just want to remind you in case you forgot I mainly play killer now over Survivor though I spent two and a half years only playing Survivor, so the fact that I'm getting hounded because I "by into the 5 gen argument" is ridiculous, obviously I don't expect you to agree with me these are just my opinions.
@WesCravenFan Fine this is about you being a try hard and wanting 4Ks when you didn't earn them, you're okay with the Devs spoon feeding you kills and you harass anybody who disagrees with you.
@Simfeliz killers are capable of going hard at the beginning it's simple after you take the hook you earned you go after someone else, that's what I do, and I've seen streamers do it all the time.
@Raptorrotas it's weird how a mostly killer main buys into the 5th gen argument isn't it?
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My mistake I thought I was talking to someone else from a different thread, reading back what you said it sounds like you get good randoms wish I were in your lobbies instead.
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1.) This has nothing to do with who plays what side more. For the record I play more Survivor than killer. This has nothing to do with getting 4Ks, tryharding, devs, or any of that. At all.
2.) You are again ignoring my point. I have never said "OMG I need to tunnel to win111!!111".
I said that attacking Killers for using prime strategies when the Survivors have 0% objective progress is a hypocritical double standard as Survivors will use their prime strategies when the Killer is at 0% objective progress.
All that other stuff you made up.
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Everything I said was to prove my point Killers have other options over slugging tunneling or camping, if you don't like the backlash why are you reading end game chat? If you do read end game chat and find that people are being nasty report them and call it a day. Also I asked this in a different post that you never responded to, "if you are enjoying a certain playstyle why do you care what other people say?"
Never have I said that it was okay to be hostile to someone who plays a certain way. My only point was that there are other options killer have and they didn't need to Camp, tunnel or slug. But again this is just my opinion.
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One more thing this is what started this whole thread between you and me and these were the things you originally said, it was never about the treatment of killers it's about the play styles.
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I didn't make any of it up
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It. Has. Nothing. To. Do. With. Options!
It's about community behavior.
It's not just end game chat. It's also on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, and these very forums. To "just turn it off", you'd have to withdrawn from the entire community.
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No your original point was about gameplay not treatment of the community.
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My point was always about gameplay and how Killers had options you changed your point
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You were complaining about killers using tactics at 5 gens, engaging in the same gatekeeping put-down that is rehearsed over and over and over again, while engaging in a double standard.
That was my point, and it didn't change. You are trying to shame 5 gen tactics, because you claim there are "other options".
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