The newest version of Dead Hard misses the point
So yes, the 6.7 version of Dead Hard is objectively weaker than the live version, being unuseable until its user is hooked for the first time, but all of the issues caused by the perks design remain unchanged.
- Dead Hard will still cause lose/lose situations for Killers at pallets
- Killers will still have to enage in the unfun "wait it out" gameplay
- Killers will still have to assume that every Survivor has Dead Hard because of how punishing it is overwise
- Dead Hard will still hardcounter lunges and every single telegraphed power
- the best counter against Dead Hard will still be to tunnel, effectively "punishing" Killer for trying to play fair
- Dead Hard will still override a lost mindgame
- Dead Hard will still provide slow down even if used wrong or not at all
- Dead Hard will still be all about the Survivors skill in using it while the Killer can just wait and hope
With the PTB version all these issues also remained, but there was at least the hope that the uncertainty inherit in its limitations would lead to a significant decrease in usage and also it could be countered by going after the unhooker, meaning that at least Killers who chose to not tunnel would benefit from that.
Its like as if instead of Eruption being reworked it just had the duration of Incapacitated lowered.
The new Dead Hard is noticeably weaker than before, but its still just as unfun and frustrating to play against as it has been for years.
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I think at pallets it should get nerfed you should not be able to drop one if you activate it for few secs. Other than that is fine and you can still go after unhooker now who will not have dh so it's good change. Most situations are counterable you mentioned if you are bit patient and survivor has to predict you.
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see you in a year or two when it is still on 3-4 survivors a game and bhvr considers another half measure to "nerf" it again
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As much as I loathe this perk as much as Sideshow Bob hates Bart, I need to point out you know EXACTLY who does not have Dead Hard:
If you have not hooked them, they don't have it.
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I would love them to make DS back to 5sec, OTR and DH arent disable after hitting off hook.
But at the same time, like DS & OTR, DH disable if do Gens, and after being fully healed.
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It's just regardless of balance the wait it out thing is so boring at this point. I just don't think it will ever change because so many survivor players like the parry aspect of it. It's simply bad design. I haven't been playing for two months because playing around it every single chase is just tedious. %dh procs vs me is probably 15% max and it still single handedly got me to stop playing the game just as before 6.1.0.
It's not even as skilled as people think. There are minor mind games you can play around a pallet with it, anything out in the open is up to the killer to mess up. I have seen maybe 10 crazy good dh's since 6.1.0. It makes me feel like I am playing against the same players every game when so few players differentiate themselves from other in terms of play, skill and perks.
People say dh is the only thing standing in the way of nurse/blight but I genuinely think a 99d sprint burst that is used well has a better chance of working. Both from the disgusting amount of Blight game play I have watched and my own. If a blight gets hit with dh it means he was on his last rush or more probable, forced to flick for the hit which in most cases is dodgeable regardless of dh. I don't really have enough knowledge to say anything like that with nurse though.
You can say it's not op, I agree with you. But you can't change the fun factor of playing against it for me. I genuinely don't think I would have an issue with it if I hadn't seen it so many times since I started playing. I love playing as and against blight but I would probably hate it if I saw him every game as well.
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If tunneling wasnt a thing DH would be dead lmao
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Every DH discussion misses the point, the only time Dead Hard was a problem was when it was a no-brainer gain distance button.
Biased/entitled killer mains just want it gone and nerfed to the ground, not balanced.
That much I can tell by how they reacted to the last DH rework (first few days they thought no1 would use it and were absolutely exhilarated), and how much they whine about pretty much everything the survivors do despite the fact that escape rates are in the sewer and the fact that BHVR themselves want the game to be killer inclined (they've already stated they don't want 50/50's %, and judging by the last reported statistics it very much ISN'T a 50/50).
Biased/entitled survivor mains that couldn't deal with the fact that it took skill to use after the rework kept killing themselves on hook after the update to try and sabotage statistics (spoiler alert this doesn't work, neither do DC's), and Solo Q was pretty much unplayable for some time.
People just want to see stuff nerfed to the ground because they can't cope with it.
You'll see people preach flashlights are toxic and op, you'll see people complain about Dead Hard, you'll see people whine about getting tunneled (they can't last 2s in chase, pity) you'll see people cry about gen rush and complain the game is "survivor sided" after they boost themselves to lobbies with non-potato survivors by using 4 slowdowns and "strategies" that made the game think they actually know how to apply pressure and play the game, and you'll see people complain about a killer being weak when they're not just because they haven't learned it or because they're comparing it to another killer that is busted base kit or with certain add-ons.
At the end of the day, nothing will really matter, because BHVR just wants to keep the game interesting by nerfing stuff to the ground to make way for different perks, regardless of what we all think. They'll make something up, and then they will just adjust it depending on feedback. We participate in the process, and we are valued by BHVR, but we will never get the first word and probably never will, because honestly the community hasn't proven itself to be responsible enough for this IMO. Most discussions about balancing are just "I don't like this thing" or "Here's why this absolutely busted thing is actually fair", and most suggestions are just someone who pulls numbers out of a black hole and says "yeah, this'll work, trust me bro" with absolutely no foundation or critical thought whatsoever.
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Yeah but as soon as you hook them they get it. And now you have to deal with 2 people possibly having Dead Hard. Tunneling the guy off the hook means you can avoid it as you can't Dead Hard during Deep Wound.
The nerf will make the perk much more manageable, and so from a killer POV I like it, but from a survivor POV I really don't like how it rewards tunnelling more than playing fair. I really don't want to have to deal with more tunnellers than I already do and this change makes me think that there is going to be an increase in it soon :(
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I mean you can read my post, I understand most killers don't hold the same opinion on dh as I. But I think seeing the same thing every game is problematic. Other games have different game designs and can allow for things to be banned with more varied balance. At the very least when I play survivor I get varied killers that I can play differently vs regardless of how boring or exciting their game play can be. When I play killer It's just nothing too special survivors running the same perks albeit more than before 6.1.0.
That perk just has awful and boring design on killer side while it feels amazing to get off as a survivor, I would know I ran it in all my survivor games for months.
The killer side thing that's boring is when you see them tunneling your teammate who isn't too good, I'm sure everyone has a flat expression when that happens. Same goes for when I see a dh coming up
Me: DH?
Survivor: DH's
Me: DH
Me: Downs survivor
Most players go through that with the most flat expression on their face because it's a boring routine.
Remember when the forums were flooded with the "I'm tired of going against Wesker every game"? It's like that. By dh's design survivors will keep running it until it's actually f tier and killers will have to keep waiting it out until it gets a full rework not a bhvr nothing rework.
This is the second time in 1.7 years that I have quit because of how tedious the perk is to play against. Even with it going from 3 to 2 dh's a game it will stay relatively popular. I could run alch ring every single game and just ignore it but I don't want to fight a boring , overused perk with an oppressive, overused add-on. I know alch ring is op and feels bad to play against so I go out of my way to not run it.
I get there is all these people saying dh is op and should be nerfed when it's not, but at the core of the issue it just comes down to how unfun and hard(for mediocre killers) to play against the perk.
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That's a great point. I wonder if Executioner's cage will count as an unhook for DH. It doesn't for anything I can think of at the moment. Will Executioner be able to completely eliminate DH?!
It would be nice if they just changed what it does completely, but the change from safe unhooks to getting unhooked is a VERY good one. I absolutely hated the idea of using safe unhooks as the trigger, it would be bad for the game for so many reasons.
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Dead Hard shouldn't exist to begin with, no perk should ever grant survivors a third health state like that. The only exception to this was Mettle of Man and it got nerfed rightfully. What they did with DH is akin to a wrist slap, it's not even remotely enough.
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You make a valid point of it getting boring because of repetitiveness. That's why I think BHVR caved in and nerfed it, pick rate.
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And another big problem of DH for M1s is that your bloodlust is gone once you hit DH. IMO it’s too big punishment for M1s, because bloodlusting is the basis of their chase which is already too long if survivor is at least mediocre.
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Bhvr nerfed it because of pick rate but failed to resolve it's boring aspects. I wish killers were complaining about the perk like I am but they are all saying it's broken still. It's not, it's just awful design and repetitive. Again I really just wish it was true reworked but I don't think it will ever happen because of it's sheer popularity on survivor side.
People always bring up how fun and skillful it is, but you know what else is skillful and fun? Alch ring/ iri tag. But there are very few survivors who get the rng to go against a good blight running that add-on combo and still find it fun.. I realize the power level difference between these things but lines drawn between these arguments still are the same.
If they are gonna delete CoB+Overcharge they should delete/rework dh. I despise CoB+Overcharge for the low skill boring gameplay it provides and I despise DH for the mediocre skill boring gameplay it provides. All these people crutching on dh taking skill have never played another real competitive multiplayer game in their life. I guess that really comes down to how mediocre even most high level players are in this game though.
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I disagree dh is hard to use to get value if killer is patient. You said yourself that survivors only manage to use it 15% of time agains't you. The only problem really is now that it is so common but this change should make it pick rate go lower. Cob and Oc require you to just kick gens that is easy.
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What are you disagreeing with? I never said it was easy to get value out of, in fact I said it was up to the killer to mess up a lot of the time. The issue is waiting it out is awful game design and that is nearly indisputable within the context of dbd.
This might be a dbd thing but just because you rely on your opponent to mess up doesn't mean the perk is hard to use. In reality you lack the control you think you have when using the perk. Hard/skillful should be terms used sparingly considering how often those terms lack meaning in dbd. Dh being hard is laughable to me considering the many other multiplayer games I have played. I play blight only because he Deny's the unskillful part of the game and without a doubt provides the most skillful game play for the survivor and the killer themselves(minus alch ring and c33). The macro in this game is infinitely harder than the micro and both are miniscule compared to peak LoL. Billy is without a doubt the hardest killer mechanically(coming from a blight main) and he really has nothing to learn outside of muscle memory. People used to say nurse was hard, but without considering a small percentile she can be learned over night(with some talent). Blight simply requires a vast amount of knowledge and game sense that no one has acquired to play perfectly, no other killer is like that.
Cob and OC takes the level of skill an AI from 2005 to preform well with atm. I only mention these perks because the provide the same level of tediousness as dh consistently.
On killer side nothing can compare to the skill level of blight and dh's miniscule skill can't compare to playing tiles/looping as a whole vs the 31(?) killers in the game.
I'll say it again, I have maybe seen 10 skillful dh's between the 1k hours of high level blight I watched and at least 400 hours of my own play time since 6.1.0. Any dh you deem skillful really isn't if it's not in a matchup vs a blight who both waits out dh and can adapt to survivor's who wait out his initial lethal rush( BUT ALSO survivor's who then adapt to that blight). Any dh vs other killers can't be claimed to be of high skill level. Send me a clip of a survivor waiting out 2 lethal rushes while playing like they were dhing and I will be impressed( the blight has to be brushing passed as if it's a shoulder flick every time). I have posted it multiple times but if everyone could use dh vs blight like the one I have been spamming then I probably wouldn't hate the perk.
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Yeah, that completely ignores the point of this thread, so at least it's on theme.
What would you suggest, slugging, tombstone piece or slugging with tombstone piece?
All versions of Dead Hard, old, PTB and new are are made useless by tunneling.
Forcing Killer to be "patient" is value and also the very reason why Dead Hard is so hated.
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I find no big issues with dh but it has two problems.
It has a counter called "wait it out" which is the worst counter ever. Im just hitting people, and if they have dh, then nad for me. Maybe on higer ranks this become a problem, but i'm low mmr player so this does not make too much difference to me.
It is ping related... So no reliable. Some hits that should be countered are not, and some that should connect do not trigger deep wound.
I think those two things should be removed to make dh more fun to play.
I think dead hard cound trigger automatically but only once for trial. Solid but limitted use second chance perk.
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If they unhook, they get it.
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Not anymore, it’s getting changed to activate only when you are unhooked or unhook yourself.
It is now impossible for one survivor to use DH more than twice in a match.
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That's why I want the Permanent Broken downside to move from No Mither to Dead Hard.
Now it announces its presence, and it being uncounterable sometimes is much less frustrating and game warping because DH isn't a 3rd health state... it's their 2nd.
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You know what also misses the point. It's being called an "anti-tunnel" perk, but it's by far more effective if the killer doesn't tunnel the survivor straight off unhook.
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And I want killers to be no quicker then 105%. Is it unreasonable? Sure it is. So is your proposition.
Anyway it's besides the point. DH usage will steeply go down over next month. Ppl will soon start to complain about sprint burst anyway
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Yeah. I don't understand how new DH is "anti-tunnel", when it encourages killers to hit a survivor immediately after being unhooked, to prevent them from using DH. With the original PTB DH, there wasn't an extra urgent reason to tunnel someone off the hook, because the person being unhooked wouldn't be getting a DH activation.
And the killers that are dedicated to tunneling people off the hook would be doing this regardless of which version of DH is in live DBD, so the new DH doesn't help "anti-tunnel" there either.
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Its existence (whether they have it equipped or not) is genuinely very unfun to play against for killer. Nobody likes having to get up on a survivor's back and ride them for several seconds and having your lunge basically disabled at loops if you don't want to risk giving them a third health state and huge speed boost.
This change doesn't really help fix the problem of why it feels so bad to play against, it just makes it so 1 out of 3 chases they won't have it. But you still don't know whether they have it equipped or not in the other 2 chases so you'll still have to go through the whole process of just breathing down their neck waiting for them to press it.
This perk deserves to die.
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Not if you do it right. Like say give it No Mither's no blood and 75% quieter while injured. Then make it more consistent by making the endurance MoM's super endurance (but still cause deep wound), lasts 0.75s, and if you aren't deep wounded after that 0.75s, you gain a 50% haste effect for 1s.
Also your counter "proposal" is not even in remotely the same country. At worst my suggestion would ruin a single perk. Yours would ruin the entire game.
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But you know you see it max 8 times in game now.
Still think it should be the original version but 1 time use only. Would be better.
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Just play executioner and never have to deal with DH again because cages don't count as hooks for anything
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Oh, I thought they made it so both the unhooker and the unhooked person got it. Okay, that's much better then. DH is dead, nothing of value is lost.
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