Killers are leaving...

You're not supposed to benefit from DH as killer, it's a survivor perk! Do you expect every survivor perk to be balanced to No Mither/Autodidact levels?

Seriously, how do you expect to balance DH with Lithe/Sprintburst when DH gives a 35% shorter burst, requires a hookstate to be used, and can easily be outplayed or missed?

DH's effect being an exhaustion perk is a con to DH. Remember that you can also get endurance from BT, OTR, and MoM.

But again, as I mentioned, you either take DH for 2x on-hit sprint, or take SB/Lithe for a longer sprint + 1x on-hit sprint. How do you want to balance this out if you took away the on-hit sprint from DH?

There is really people thinking that PR 25% is a buff compared to the 15% live one? Scourge Hooks are bad, as most of the time you need Agitation to make this perk realiable, since there is some maps that is impossible to get a single Scourge hook proc (Like RPD, or the Swamp). Anyway, Pain Ressoance (aside Jolt) was one of the only perk that applied regression without the need t going to gen and kick it, making the game more dinamic.

Now, think of this situation: you hook one survivor in Pain Ressonance then go chase another one. After ending that chase, you don't have a scourge nearby, you hook in a normal hook. Then you encounter the first one you chased. If you chase this surv and have enough luck to down and get a scourge hook, you get nothing. Not because you are tunelling, but because you're just doing your objective efficiently.

Sorry, but if a killer spread too much the hooks (more than with 2 or 3 survs), most of the time this will lead to 4 escapes, even with 2 or 3 people are in death hook. """tunneling""" like this is necessary until the devs add a basekit mechanic to incentivise spreading hooks more than focusing on one or two people.

Anyone still mad about this update is hella biased one way or the other. This is about as even handed an update as you could hope for, even if you don't agree with all of it.

As for DH, I thought people were on something when they said the 6.1.0 was a buff, but to say this is a buff? That's just lunacy. The old DH for distance version was by far the strongest version, it was op as hell. Now it's just tedious, and mostly because it's tired, not powerful.

I won't be sad to see it go (and make no mistake, this is about getting it out of the meta, not "balancing" it. And that's fine), but it's not super strong any more.

From the killer side, one aspect of the gen kick meta nerf that I haven't seen discussed much is that it will also kick Nowhere to Hide in its metaphorical balls. It's been pretty prevalent since Knight dropped, but it's use was tied heavily to Overcharge/CoB.

Or do gens. You forgot that we can't do gens either. Just run around like flightless birds in a pen as they run around with shotguns.

"-You're not supposed to benefit from DH as killer, it's a survivor perk! Do you expect every survivor perk to be balanced to No Mither/Autodidact levels?"

Why does Dying Light buff survivors. DH could have been balanced around something like : using it gives the killer an emblem that does whatever for the rest of the game. Maybe it could be a 1% permanent movement speed boost if they hit you when you use DH the first time.

-"DH's effect being an exhaustion perk is a con to DH. Remember that you can also get endurance from BT, OTR, and MoM."

MoM was stupid broken and they nerfed it. DH has needed years to let survivors abuse it before it was tapped on the wrist. Nobody uses OTR with DH as it ends up with exactly the same result - the killer just hits you 1/2 a second after your feet hit the floor from a hook. That's what I do.

"How do you want to balance this out if you took away the on-hit sprint from DH? "

Remove the movement speed effect on DH then it will only work when you DH to make a vault or pallet. There will be no more "free distance" from DH. The only distance you get is with the recovery time of the killer.

Since you seem so keen on STBFL countering DH this makes the most sense.

Oh, you actually ARE suggesting survivor perks should help killers more than survivors. Okay. That's... Uh... That's a hot take and a half there, buddy.

Then what's the problem with DH if it never fires anyway?

So then why should I pick this perk over Lithe or Sprintburst which will net me similar amounts of time without any strings attached?

Also, what the heck do you mean 'free'? You have to predict a killer's hit, and it costs a health state, that's not free, bud.

I'm not 'keen on it', just pointing out STBFL already counters DH.

At this point, they just proved that killers better leave in mass and make queue's timers miserable.

If review bombing and crying is now the new meta to revert patches, this game is really going downhill.

Not really. I mean, it's definitely stronger than DS used to be, but that doesn't make it powerful. It's very restricted in its use, demanding inefficiency from the survivor if they want to put it to use outside of its intended use, and that intended use is entirely in the killer's control.

If you, like me, meant to say DH there (I royally messed up in the post you quoted, freely admit that), then yeah, old DH was pretty busted.

If you're talking about the DS prior to 6.1, then no, no one agreed it was 'busted af'. Pre-6.1 DS was incredibly healthy for the game since it basically blocked a perk slot for survivors in exchange for blocking tunnelling for the killer and doing barely anything else. It took the spikes out of both sides and slowed trials down, which is what both sides are constantly begging for. The DS stun duration nerf is one of the worst changes DBD has ever gone through.

No, you're not, because you're not allowed to do anything to further your team's interests if you want to keep OTR. The moment you do -anything- to help the survivors, you lose OTR. You're a non-entity as long as you have OTR on, outside of bodyblocking, which is admittedly unfair to the killer.

Or you got hit within 10 seconds of being unhooked, in which case OTR becomes blocked, ironically making tunnelling harder the counter to the anti-tunnelling perk.

First only eruption got nuked (and only the annoying part at that) and while pr got nerfed overall (our opinion) it got a decent compensation for it.

Second people would have used DH regardless of which change went through. The newest one at least gives a reason to go for the unhooked instead and protection against killers who wait out the base kit bt.

Third, NEVER did we say it's ok. We just want it to happen less on ALL SIDES.

Lastly you straight avoided our questions.

PR got a decent compensation for it? Are you real?

Before, you needed to get lucky with Scourge Hook spawning, as if they all spawned in the same corner of the map, you are screwed. It was still useful because if you was lucky, you would get the effect everytime you hooked someone, so if you get downs fast you could use it reliably and have more chances for it to really do some slowdown.

Now? You don't only need to be lucky with the hook placement, you would need to be lucky that when you first hook someone the max progressed gen is not just 4-5% done, as that would be a waste of the effect. And if you aren't lucky enough those 4 times then puff! Perk's gone, and you didn't get value from it.

PR nerf was ok when all healing times was higher as the killer would get more downs and PR would become more oppressive, so it needed balance. But now that they reduced the healing again (because everybody repeat the mantra that altruistic healing wasn't a problem, yet not one person can explain or give a compelling argument of why it wasn't) PR depends so much in RNG that it would be almost useless no matter if it's strength is 15, 25 or 90%.

Oh, and by the way, DH won't serve you in that situation for the simple reason that if you are getting tunneled on unhook the killer would simply have to hit you to trigger the basekit protection for you to not be able to use DH, as Deep Wound would make it to not protect you from the hit anymore. So it is just as before, but worst.

Decent as the gen with the most progress loses a Quarter of total progress now. Would you rather it be back to 15% per token? We don't like the nerf, but saying it didn't get something back would be lying. Add to the fact that you can CHOOSE if you want someone on that shiny hook, you have some (not alot admittedly) control over when you want it.

For the healing speed thing (and this is opinion based like the rest) that 2 survivors healing each other for practically a gen's worth of time just plain wrong.

...not sure what your going on about for the 3rd paragraph so if please explain if you want us to think of a thought out answer.

A quarter of total progress loss if the most progressed gen has a quarter of total progress in it to begin with the moment you hook a survivor for the first time. If while carrying the survivor to the hook they complete a gen an the next one has only 2% of progress in it, it would regress just a 2% of progress. And I would prefer if them just removed the "Scourge Hook" requirement from it so it would depend a little less on RNG instead of making it stronger, at least.

And they could just keep the 24 altruistic seconds, buff CoH to 100% as they are doing, buff the medkits to go from 50 to 100% of healing also and they would have the same effect in terms of "altruistic healing being equal as self healing with a medkit is a problem because a streamer said so" as now healing someone with the best medkit would reward you with a healthy survivor and almost 21 charges in a gen instead of the 24 charges that would take the survivor to heal themselves, while still giving some breathing time to killers. But no, because people would still complain that they being equal is still a problem as someone, somewhere said so.

And I think is simple to understand. Before, taking in count an scenario where the killer can get the unhooked survivor soon after being unhooked, if they decided to go after the unhooked survivor they would first have to deal with the basekit protection (Endurance + Haste) for 10 seconds, making the chase longer and almost impossible for the unhooker to not get DH, as for it to not being a "Safe Unhook" the unhooked survivor need to get downed again. From the wiki:

So, despite what people said, tunneling to denying DH was not a viable option unless you already planned to tunnel, so it wasn't an incentive to do it. Now? Now it would not only incentivice it, it is the best decision to make, as someone already with Deep Wound won't get the protection hit from DH. If you want to avoid the unhooked survivor to get it, you just need to trigger the basekit Endurance for him to get Deep Wound.

In other words, DH would not help you in that situation as there is no way a killer that has you on his attack range would simply wait the 10 whole seconds so you can get to chose when you are protected of the hit by using DH. They would hit you to trigger basekit Endurance, and just keep chasing you like they would do anyways. In fact, this change would benefit killers than can camp reliably like Bubba the most.

DH won't only not protect you from being tunneled , but now you would only get DH when survivors stop unhooking you with the killer 5 meters away of the hook... yeah, good luck with that. That's what happens when people complain of things they don't fully understand.

25% regression is quite a lot but they should increased the amount of scourge hooks 1 or 2. I will probably use pop with it.

Dh is usable now twice so it's pretty big nerf especially when they can't use it in first chase. It could have more counters around pallets though survivors have managed drop pallet after I have baited it out sometimes.

I feel like this isn't talked about enough. I do agree with the conspicuous actions change and disabling DS during end game changes from the 6.1 patch, but the stun duration actually did what it was supposed to do before. (Which you seem to agree, too, just being thorough with the 6.1 changes)

Killers used to consciously play around the perk and keep in mind that DS was a thing, which is exactly what a functional anti tunnel perk should be doing.

Now tho, DS is basically an exhaustion reset button and killers don't even bat an eye. DS isn't the deterrent, the only threat is another potential Dead Hard (until the patch, where even this part goes away).

It honestly feels like the reaction to DS now is a surprised 'wow, you wasted a perk slot for that' while downing the survivor again.

Honestly, both CoH and NtH will be staying on my build, when used together they rarely fail to tell me a survivor was hiding nearby, especially with CoH bypassing the Distortion NtH is blocked by.

You are aware of the problems that PR has, but you made an argument without taking in count any of those problems... k.

And you said it yourself, you have "perks that help start and end chase quickly", which give you more hooks, which give you more chances to get a "good hit" of PR in a gen with a lot of progress. That's why PR was still viable even if you depended on RNG for the hooks to be placed in good spots, because you can proc it everytime you hooked someone. Now, because you would only have 4 chances to remove progress from gens, if you hook for the first time a survivor and the most progressed gen only has 5% done in that moment, quarter of the perk wasted. Hook two survivors twice instead of doing 4 distributed hooks, and that's a lot of time the gens are progressing without any regression done. I think this is not that hard to understand, even more if you are using PR in most of your games.

And my objection is simple: You saw one thing one time happening to one person, and you really believe is a good example to use to make a point like "If you are unable to get value of a perk based on RNG is because you either doing good or survivors bad" like there is no other possible scenario or outcome where the perk would be useless but you really needed it to do it's thing.

And it is funny to me that you accuse me of "being salty for playing well" when it's you who use that specific case to make a point that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. But you do you, man.

despite those problems the perk is still good. i didn't take those problems into account because the scenarios where it's good and the scenarios in which it goes unused because you're overperforming and don't need it far outweigh the amount of time you're getting outplayed while running it.

i think you're fundamentally misunderstanding why i brought up the streamer. i'm not using them as an argument, i'm using them as an analogy. i'm saying complaining about not getting value from pain res is analagous to complaining about not getting value from endgame perks, because in my experience, a vast majority of the time the reason you aren't getting value, at least in my experience, is because you're winning too hard for them to matter.

Of course. That's why you, again, said "because you're overperforming" when again, there are many times when you won't get value from it precisely because gens are getting done fast and just in the moment you are going to hook the most progressed gen gets done. That among all the possible outcomes that luck and pure RNG could make you have while using it that isn't "I didn't have the chance to get value from it because I'm destroying the survivors this match".

If there is two gens left, you are about to hook for the first time a survivor after getting two hooks in other two survivors (5 total) and just before you do it one gen is completed and the other 3 gens don't have any progress in it, you didn't get value from the perk because you are doing so good and are in such a good place having 4 survivors alive with just 1 gen left to go that you won't need it! My false equivalency fallacy says so!

Again, whatever makes you sleep better at night, man. I'm not going to argue against the same illogical point over and over again.

Eh, I would say it's a slight buff compared to the PTB version (it's still conditional, you don't get unlimited uses, which is going to turn a lot of people off of it), and still a heavy nerf compared to what it was. In fact, now that you can use it only after being unhooked, you'll get at most two uses per match (unless I'm misunderstanding something).

And it was already a shell of what it was a year ago.

Is it it a little frustrating that they just don't kill it like they have so many other perks? Absolutely. I'd be fine if they just deleted the damned thing because six+ years of being omnipresent is just enough already.

But in its current form, it's not even the strongest exhaustion perk. I still think Sprint Burst and Lithe (and probably BL) will overtake it in pick rate.

In the original PTB version, people that equip dead hard might get 0 activations from it, if they didn't safe unhook anyone. In the newer version, every survivor that equips dead hard gets 2 activations for free.

In fact, in the original PTB version, there were many people that got zero activations the entire match. Maybe the survivors always got hooked on the opposite side of the map, and someone else got the unhook before the DH user. Maybe it's a game where one of the survivors is trying so much to get unhooks, that the DH user doesn't get any unhooks. Maybe the DH user is injured, and doesn't feel comfortable trying to go for unhooks. There are many reasons why a survivor might not get a chance to unhook other survivors, especially in solo q.

The result is that many survivors on the original PTB might equip DH and get 0 activations, because they didn't earn any. And a perk that might get 0 activations has a very high chance of being dropped from the meta, after survivors realize they might get 0 activations per game.

Yes, it can. You or me being able to may be different, but being completely unable to is false.

You didn't give a definition at all. You just went and pulled numbers. Which went down because people found toys they liked more after they got nerfed. Your insinuating that if the usage numbers dropped significant it got nuked correct?

That sounds condescending all things considered over us not being clear with wording but your welcome?

Lastly:

"DH is stronger now than the old "DH for distance" because you get sprint burst distance on demand."

We were referring to THIS specifically with those questions