Brand New Parts need a fat nerf
Especially now that gen reg is getting gutted, BNPs still stand as one of the dumbest, strongest, least earned item in the game that cuts down the time spent in a trial dramatically. It seems like it's impossible for me to play more than two games in a row without seeing 2+ BNPs. Something needs to be done about this addon. Toolboxes in general are broken, and survivors know it, but abusing BNPs+Stakeout+Hyperfocus needs to be made a thing of the past, and quick.
Comments
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I don't think the problem is in the perks, but in the BNP itself. Hyperfocus, in addition to requiring skill, still shares the same base bonus between repair and heal speed, and a nerf on the perk, would harm both, the most I see is removing the possibility of synergy in builds (removing bnp you already cut synergy with hyperfocus and removing the Stakeout bonus itself), and prove thyself wouldn't be so overused if most of the gens in the match were Solo gens, at least 5 out of 7, forcing swfs to make at least 3 solo generators and time-sharing the matches between SWFs and SoloQ
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I think its perfectly okay to have strong items,addons and overall tools to bring into a trial to tip the scales.
At its core dbd is a party,casual game,it just wouldn't be the same if we remove all the goofy,unbalanced stuff it has.Keep them as they are,just make sure not to keep killers in the dust regarding similar strong options,and to hopefully buff a few regression perks down the line to stabilize the lack of slowdown which will be present next patch.
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DBD isn't a casual party game.
But assuming it is, why not just make call of brine regress gens by 600%? It's a goofy, fun, unbalanced perk. Why shouldn't DH make you invincible for the remainder of the trial? That's just goofy and fun, isn't it?
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For the same reason its fine for blight to look at a pallet and for it to dissapear(C33),for the same reason clow can instadown(pinky),for the same reason spirit can match blights speed(MDRing).It's fine for both sides to have strong,unbalanced options as long as its not overly opressive,and both sides have such a nuclear alternative.I do agree survivors have stronger stuff,4 Bnps + map offering is a stronger boon than any killer can provide for themselves,but the game doesn't need to be 100% balanced
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"Fun Casual Party Game" does not mean "Only one side gets to have fun".
Any game where your side can lose because the map decided it wanted to generate a massive dead zone everywhere/loop after chained loop after chained loop for 3/4ths of the map is not exactly what I would call a competitive game.
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It 100% is a party game, but you do have a point, too many people take this game far too seriously (probably myself as one of them). The extremes in BNP/Syringe/Nurse/Blight against Add-on less Green Key/Green Map/Freddy/Doctor are what make the game a party game. It is far too varied in terms of balance without making drastic changes, and even then pretending those changes makes the game a balanced competition is just as much a joke as 'pro' Smash players. You can play king of the hill, but the hill is made of manure-based fertilizer.
Anyone can have fun rolling in the pile, just remember to shower afterwards.
Edit: (Also worst case scenario all 4 survs bring BNPs which drops 5 gens to 4. A 20% difference from a stacked team is hardly a regular issue, let alone enough to prevent you from injuring and downing them. People reliant on those crutches tend to be without skill, which would make your match easier indirectly.)
Edit 2: One of the juiciest Toolboxes with Built to Last gives you ~105 gen seconds, and that same juiciest toolbox with a BNP instead of one of those add-ons (still with BTL) only gives ~95 gen seconds. The other synergies are much more egregious than the BNP itself. BNPs feel bad because you see a big iri addon, but a BNP in and of itself only buys 22.5s. 3 unhook heals with We'll Make It provides more value. BNPs feel worse than their effect actually hurts killers.
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What the devs should do is overhaul every last survivor item, BNP in general should be removed completely tbh, if I'm taking chase survivors can easily pop 3 gens if they all do them solo without even trying. New addons need to be given to survivors which do different effects, like they can set traps to see the killers aura down a hallway, or they can protect a gen for 0-10 seconds with a shield or they can give the killer a slowdown effect. Just random stuff in general, but anything which doesn't increase the speed of gens should be fine from both sides.
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It's funny how you mention three of the strongest addons in the game, who almost everyone, killer mains included, agree should get nerfed, and believe you're making a solid argument.
While BTL can refill items, it's important to account for the time spent refilling them in a locker. And while We'll Make It provides more efficiency than a BNP in raw numbers, it's important to remember the fact that gens are a killer's primary objective, and are often patrolled, whereas survivors can heal anywhere. The extra 22.5 seconds (""only"") of gen time that is saved is crucial, because it's a static objective.
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Yeah ofc those addons are busted.Thats exactly my point.If those addons are allowed to be in the game so should brand new part.Take them out together or leave them be
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All of those addons (and more) should’ve been nerfed a long time ago. Actually, Pinky Finger has been nerfed and is about to get nerfed again soon.
An overpowered thing existing on one side doesn’t make it ok for the other side to have similarly overpowered tools. Nerf them both. The killer addons you listed are not balanced, at all. BNPs are also not balanced.
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Don't we agree then?Just remove nerf them both or keep them both.There is merit in having strong options for shits and giggles but ultimately if you want to make the game more competitive and balanced they have no business being so strong.
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We're not playing tit for tat. This thread is about BNPs specifically. You want those addons addressed, make a thread about it. I'm sure plenty of people will show support, myself included. But don't come on a thread about BNPs playing the whataboutism game. That's not gonna fly.
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As a matter of fact i don't want those addons removed,i'm a killer main myself and like to abuse them from time to time.
You are missing my main point,its fine for dbd to be unbalanced.The game design philosophy the developers have reflect that.Look at the recent map releases and reworks,they are all terribly unbalanced maps(infact all maps are terrible due to the rng factor involved,maps can have as much as an extra 8-10 pallets,or a shack window facing a long wall junggle gym that connects to the main building).Even the killers released,have design as their driving force,as they don't shy away from releasing underpowered m1 killers(sadako,SM).
I do agree with your sentiment of making dbd a more balanced game,and bnps are a start,but they do align with the philosophy of the developers(a cool design) and serve as the strong thing survivors can bring to balance the odds,which is why removing them is in poor taste, as long as killers are allowed to run rampant.(especially since medkits and flashlights have just been hit with nerfs).
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BNP need to be reworked. Assuming the stacked gen regression builds are a thing of the past after the midchapter idk, I suppose they can just go. Only sensible purpose would be in a case of "just do gens" in an unsave-able tunneling/camping situation .... but then again; that situation should just not be possible.
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I'll do you one better:
Make toolboxes Sabo only and retire BNPs.
If all the gen regression is getting a 70% nerf then all the gen rushing stuff needs to poof.
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There is no way you can justify that BNP+Hyperfocus is good for the game.
Having a way to make a 90 second generator take 40-45 seconds breaks the game balance.
The only way this would be "ok" is if killer could make you die in half as much time on the hook with the right perk+addon. Just imagine how mad survivors would be if that was part of the game.
If killer doesn't get to kill you 50% faster then you don't get to do generators 50% faster.
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but I didn't justify anything, I just said that the problem is the bnp, which must be removed at best scenario.
And I gave the arguments for not messing with the perks, specially hyperfocus.
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Hallo. It was just mentioned. MDR+amulet spirit is totally different thing then yellow duration and yellow speed spirit. 50% chase reduction is absolutely fine estimate. Same thing for tombstone piece. Or C33+alch ring. Or engeneering's fang + original pain. Or pinky finger + extra bottles. Or bestmarks + award chilly for camping bubba. Or Black incense + iridescent seal.
Do I need to even continue? There are so many OP things on killer's side - that it's absolutely OK to also have OP things on survivor's side. And if we actually want balanced game instead, then remove all the OP stuff from both sides
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Let's just stop for a minute and talk about your list.
MM has two nasty addons that make the game difficult for survivors. Overall though the killer is weak and is 100% turned off when someone drops a pallet.
Blight with garbage addons can offer much more pressure than MM.
SWF in general is a lot of pressure for most of the bad killers.
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Out of that entire list, the only addons that are "OP" are Pinky finger (getting nerfed), Engi fang (on a good Pinhead that can actually hit chains), C33/Alch Ring. And even fewer of them come close to comparing to how busted BNPs are.
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We talked about addons that can speed up chase by 50%. He has an addon, that can skip 2 hook states AND injury - that's way more then 300% speedup and quite bonkers.
But the point stands. It's ok for MM to have such an addon (same as all the other killers in my very much incomplete list) so long as survivors have commodius with BNP's. I would argue that survs are still at disadvantage, because killers can black ward their OP stuff, while survivor's OP things just vanish after use...
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Even accounting for a generous 18s per 'reload', you get a solid ~50s, on top of it being available when you need to speed up a gen. the BNP is only available the first gen you try to use it on. How often do you actually see people save BNPs for the final 3 gens? Heck, you can't even tell unless you watched them personally, or had a recording of the Survivor HUD seeing it speed up. The majority of my soloq teammates burn BNPs on the very first gen, and typically drop their box for a chest item instead. Them wasting time rerolling their item on the chest often makes up for the BNP boost alone.
I thought White Ward saved whatever item and add-ons they brought into the trial, even if they used an add-on mid-match.
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They aren't going to remove non-sabo, and aren't gonna make them useless.
I do think at minimum toolbox skillchecks shouldn't work with hyperfocus. Simple premise, toolboxes give you more skillchecks which synergizes very well with hyperfocus, and BNP skillchecks also synergize with it. This is bad imo. Without the toolbox interaction I think hyperfocus is actually a balanced perk.
Perhaps for further changes, a generator could be made to only take one BNP ever. If you have 4 BNPs, you have to use them on different gens. This is still insanely strong, but what makes BNPs transcendently strong is when you have multiple and use it when there's only one or two gens left.
A luxury change would be to make BNP consume the entire toolbox once you right click a gen. I don't think BHVR would do this though because it means if you brought a BNP the rest of the toolbox is irrelevant.
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Doesn't matter when a BNP is being used, it provides the value that it does. Assuming the survivors are not stupid and not 3-genning themselves, the last gen is a formality if you have 1-2 hooks spread out between two people by the time you're down to 1 gen left. And even if they do 3-gen themselves, what can most killers do against that? You protect the gens too much, survivors chip at them slowly and progress the two on the edges bit by bit until one pops. You commit to a chase too much? You get a down, last gen pops, survivors open gate and coordinate a 3-man rescue. Gen time provides a standard for how long a game should take. When that standard is slashed by a third because survivors brought 4 BNP commos, the killer has much less time to work with.
Thing is, survivors are already mathematically advantaged even without BNPs. If you throw BNPs in the mix, it's basically impossible to lose a game unless if the survivors are just feeding downs left and right.
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Tombstone/Piece is absolutely not okay, and survivors have white ward. What now?
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Styptic and syringe destroy whole medkit with addons so there's nothing to white ward. BNP just disappears so there's no saving it (but u can keep your toolbox)
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That's strange as the phrasing is exactly the same as the Black Ward. I just figured they would function the same. They should update the tooltip so it doesn't trick people. Plain text shouldn't be that difficult to change.
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A White Ward protects whatever item and addons you are carrying when you die/escape.
If you destroy your medkit using a Styptic or Syringe, or put your item down (or drop it because of Franklin's) and then die, the offering does nothing. If it successfully saves your item after death, it also makes the item disappear when you die (instead of being left below your hook) so none of your teammates can take it after your death.
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Yeah, but the tooltip doesn't express that. It says "Grants protection against the loss of your item and its Add-ons." Not "Grants protection against the loss of your item and its Add-ons, unless you drop it, lose it through Franklin's, or use the consumable add-on or other add-on that destroys the item."
It could just be changed to "Protects the item being carried and its equipped add-ons if you die with it in your possession."
Strangely enough the current version allows for duplication of event items. Just have a SWF bring all White Wards and then have everyone grab the dying survivor's item.
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-"How often do you actually see people save BNPs for the final 3 gens?"
Bad players use their BNP whenever on the first gen they find. Smart players wait until the killer gets in a chase then burn their BNP on a generator that breaks the strongest 3 gen on the map.
It doesn't matter what you do after the 3 gen is broken because for most of the old killers there is no coming back. If you have gens in a "Y" configuration you can't defend that unless you are Blight/Nurse or have a teleport power.
-"I do think at minimum toolbox skillchecks shouldn't work with hyperfocus."
And for the exact same reason that you can't use Autodidact with a medkit. Literally everyone offered this suggestion on the PTB but BHVR didn't go through with it because it makes for a nice "must buy" pay to win perk if you have the Wesker DLC.
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Yeah agreed the description should be more clear.
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BNPs - Yes, smart people do the smart thing. My question was essentially how often do you see people do that smart thing? The vast majority of my BNP matches are a single person using on their first gen, or dying with it unused (either because I saw the BNP under hook as Surv, or because 0 of the gens were completed so I just have to assume it went unused). I probably have only seen 4 BNPs once or twice, and I remember winning at least one of them regardless. I think BNPs are more of a boogeyman that doesn't actually live under the bed. Syringes I completely understand and agree are a problem though, and with the self-healing nerfs they will take 24s basekit to go into effect on yourself, so I feel like that is getting fixed.
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I run into an average of 2 BNPs per game. The games that there is no BNP in, a survivor will typically dc/suicide on first hook.
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You must be very unlucky. Most of my lobbies contain medkit or flashlight. It's far more likely survivor will bring nothing at all then BNP.
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Then quit bringing them with your friend. Jokes aside, I highly doubt that. I will only believe that if you take a snapshot of the endgame screen of playing matches for a few hours. My experience is they are few and far between on both sides.
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It largely depends on who you are playing with/ against. I see people use it in a smart way all the time.
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At the risk of presuming too much, I think the DCs and hook suicides speak more to your playstyle than anything else (only hinted at by a Survivor with sub 10k BP [a common but not foolproof indicator of an early tunnel out of the game], and the other shown match with 4 DCs). You did post 2, but I was thinking 8+, (assuming 15 min games over 2 hours, 2 hours being the minimum to reach 'a few') but I have no clue how much free time you have. Fairs fair though, you do see that much sweat to counter your sweat. Even then it seems with BNPs, Survivors still stand no chance against you, so I'm not sure where the complaint lies. Bringing Blight/Nurse is the equivalent of all Survivors bringing BNP/Syringe, or being a coordinated SWF (a juicy Blight/Nurse build being the equivalent of Survivors doing both). I could understand the frustration as a mobility-less M1 killer, but you are literally playing on ez mode against enemies trying to also play on ez mode, and you still win. That seems perfectly fair to me.
Also the only remotely 'sweaty' surv build I saw was the inefficient toolbox build, (that build is better off with Yellow Efficiency add-on than BNP) that Cheryl brought alongside a farm offering. I mean heck, one of the BNP bringers brought Flip-Flop without Power Struggle along with BPS. No one brought Hyperfocus or Stakeout across all the games. That matches your all intel build pretty much also. The only major sweat facets - Blight and BNP - were matched against one another nicely. If BNPs are still an issue, have you played a bottom 5 killer instead of a top 5 killer? I would think the bottom 5 killer's personal MMR would be low enough to not see Iri add-ons every match, but it also could be time of day. I know when I play past 1am I fight predominantly scummy Killers in surv soloq (VPN for lagvantage and/or bug exploiting most frequently, maybe some facecamping and hard tunneling off hook sprinkled in), and it feels like my soloq teammates are all high as a kite (allergic to gens against the facecamping Bubba as one possible example).
Post edited by Rizzo on1
