Killer nerf instead of survivor nerf ?
I can't believe that upcoming patch is going to nerf killers so hard. I mean many survivors can say that "HEY, THEY NERFED MED KITS AND COH AND EVEN DH!" but look... DH can be used also by person who saved certain survivor... It just doesn't work for only 1st chase. CoH is actually buffed... placing 2 boons grants you large area with insane healing speed boost.
CoH was trashy on PTB because of more time required to heal. With only 16 seconds 50% of extra speed is seems decent and that isn't too opressive for killer.
And so... they nerfed probably every single regression perk in the game. CoB or OC weren't too strong, they were chosen frequently because killers have no other perks but dead lock or Pain Resonace which was nerfed as well...
Probably every singe not too bad SWF will benefit from this patch and killers like the Trapper or Trickster are going to be even worse...
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For the record, the dev update said you get activations of Dead Hard via being unhooked Instead of getting unhooks, not in addition. So based on the wording, there is a hard limit of two Dead Hard uses per survivor, and they have to be staggered between hook states instead of used at the survivor's discretion. It's a huge nerf.
Similarly, it's worth mentioning that CoB and OC weren't chosen frequently "because killers have no other perks", but because they enabled the 3-gen camping strategy, which was obviously unhealthy and warranted being nerfed. Pain Resonance is a different story, I'll grant you that, but CoB and OC did need to be nerfed. It wasn't arbitrary.
+100% speed on CoH is slightly concerning, but that's really the only thing to be concerned about in this patch. It still can't be used to self heal or chain with medkits, and medkits themselves are substantially weaker, so at bare minimum the self-heal problem has been fixed.
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The buff to heal speed on CoH is only to make up for the time it takes to place it, and the time it takes for other survivors to come to the boon area to heal an injured player. And since that healing bonus doesn't work with med-kit heals, it sounds like a smart change to me.
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Lots of things wrong here.
DH only works when you get unhooked. You get two uses MAX. If you whiff, it's deactivated.
CoH got massively nerfed. It had the single strongest effect in the game completely removed.
CoB and Overcharge were being used to hold matches hostage. They were much too strong. Nobody liked the infinite 3 gen meta.
PR got a side-grade. It's better for you up until the 7th hook of the match.
This patch is mostly fair, but I do think it slightly favors Killers.
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survivor's only change is an increase in 8 second healing when using med-kit. your not going notice 8 seconds of more time healing from med-kit as killer.
DH is strong perk however few players can utilize it consistently for the perk to major impact a match. when only 0.05% of player-base would produce game-changing impact from the perk, your not really going to notice much in regards to this perk.
The survivor changes will be unnoticeable in a few months. What will remain noticeable in a few months is killer having no regression perks or consistent generator defence perks. The few perks that vastly improved killer winning chances are low impact perks. I suspect that survivor will have one of strongest updates that they have ever had.
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You will.
Suddenly, since you can't heal quickly multiple times, injuring Survivors and spreading pressure is worth it.
DH was hard nerfed. CoH was hard nerfed. CoB and Overcharge were hard nerfed.
PR got a sidegrade.
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DH "just doesn't work for the first chase"? JUST?
That's the biggest part of the change. It can no longer extend the phase of the game where the killer is at their absolute weakest, from the start of the match until their first down that makes the other survivors have to do something else than gens.
It's a great way to do it, basically the same as what they did to DS when it became the first version of the activated-on-unhook perk we know today. Before that it could in one way or another (obsession DS or non-obsession DS, or even earlier back in primordial DBD just straight up on-pickup DS for all 4 survivors) get a survivor off the killer's shoulder even if they were the first down of the match and it was silly.
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Im looking forward to the most boring Meta ever: Corrupt, Deadlock, No Way Out and NOED
And no, dear devs, these perks are not overpowered, the rest of the roster is just too bad or demolished with your nerfs.
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We'll make it gives you a 100% healing speed buff aswell, it's good perk but not a meta perk, so I expect the new CoH to fall in the same category.
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PR was objectively nerfed. No one will use it
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PR is better until the 7th hook of the game. If you've got 7 hooks, you should be winning.
You also get rewarded for not tunneling. Good design.
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It’s rng on top of rng. You have to hope you get a scourge hook against different people on different occasions. I think that’s design that will guarantee no one uses it.
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Because that perk has seen more use since its buff last year?
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If you think COH is getting overall buffed idk what to say to u lmao, pain res is also still going to be good but of course coh only got buffed and pain res only got nerfed makes a lot of sense
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There's very few good gen regression/defense perks left. And the couple that are left are already starting to see complaints.
Lets look at the perks for gen defense at this point:
- Call of Brine
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Eruption
- Grim Embrace
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby
- Hex: Pentimento
- Hex: Ruin
- Jolt
- Merciless Storm
- Oppression
- Overcharge
- Pop goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Thanatophobia
Now lets look at the ones that are, after the next patch, are useless, or going to be useless, and why.
- Call of Brine - Default gen regression is 0.25 charges per second (a gen is 90 charges) CoB makes that 0.3125 charges per second. Which means to have a full 89 second gen regress basekit takes 356 seconds. And with CoB will now take 284.8 seconds. What a complete joke of a perk now.
- Eruption - Keeping eruption at 10 % total was a good change, but the reason eruption used to be strong, was because landing it, meant you downed a survivor, and if you hit survivors with it, you block them from repairing for around how long it would take you to hook the survivor you just downed, and start running over to the gen you are on. Now all it does is save you 9 seconds off the gen they were on, and show their aura. Meaning if you go for the downed survivor, you they will regain that 9 seconds before you even hook them, and the aura reading is useless. It only encourages slugging builds really, and the setup for it is too long for it to be useful now.
- Grim Embrace - What a complete joke of a perk, after hooking each survivor, you block every gen for 40 seconds and get to see where the obsession is. All this does, when it even actually activates in a situation that you want it to (I.E. The last survivor you chased isn't your obsession) it is super short and easy to just hide it out. Because you are blocking every single gen, so what else are survivors going to do? It technically saves you time, but it saves you time in a way that doesn't really benefit you and is easily countered. At BEST the perk is going to let you chase and down a single survivor without having gen progress happen which isn't really going to make much of a difference in a 12 hook game.
- Hex: Huntress Lullaby - Another complete joke of a perk, all it does is hurt low tier survivors. But even then, it takes so long to build up to being powerful, that by the time you do, the perk is already gone anyway. Compare the build up of this perk, with the build up of devour hope and you'll realize how useless this perk is.
- Hex: Ruin - Similar to CoB, base regression is simply too weak, maybe if base regression was stronger this would be good, but its too weak for what little power it gives, and on top of that, it can be cleansed. MAYBE if this wasn't a Hex perk, it might be decent for some passive regression, but that's still a big maybe.
- Merciless Storm - Completely joke of a perk, any decent survivor is hitting those skill checks, and even then if they don't the punishment is basically nothing, you get barely enough time to walk over to the gen and chase them off, but again, they can just hide out the perk, and now you either spend time looking for them, and the other 3 survivors finish gens, or you leave, and the survivor finishes the gen anyway.
- Oppression - This perk is another one that MIGHT be decent, if it didn't have some massive cooldown. Why does this perk even HAVE a cooldown at all? At most the cooldown for this thing should be 30 seconds, but even that is pushing it IMO. In general though, good survivors are hitting that skill check anyway, and as mentioned before, base regression sucks anyway, so the only real benefit is the skill check.
- Overcharge - Base regression sucks, and you are making it suck even more? And then its barely as good as the new CoB. The skill check again, will be hit easily by good survivors, and the worst part is, it doesn't even counter gen tapping because the skill check will "follow" the survivor, and allow them to hit it while they are getting chased off the gen, meaning you can't even use it to counter gen tapping. MAYBE if the skill check didn't follow the survivor, and it didn't start at < 100% regression it might be DECENT.
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain - With these new changes, survivors are more likely to just stay injured anyway. But this perk is so easily countered. As soon as you realize the killer has it, you just heal up, and then force the killer to hit you by body blocking for someone, and now it is gone. Even then, 16% penalty makes a 90 second gen take 107 seconds, or 17 seconds longer, which in the grand scheme of things, isn't that much longer, especially when there is an easy way to avoid it and remove it.
- Thanatophobia - Complete joke of a perk since its nerf. It is only good on really 1 killer, and the only reason it is good on that 1 killer (plague) is to basically force survivors to cleanse and actually give you a power. It is damn near required on her otherwise you are just an m1 killer with 4 injured survivors the whole game and then what is the point. Even with 3 survivors injured though, it gives 6% penalty to repairs, which makes a 90 second gen take 95.75 seconds. What a complete joke of a perk, all for 3 injured survivors? And if you get the 4th, all it does is make one of them heal really quick and you lose the big penalty.
So now the completely useless ones are removed, what does that leave us with:
- Corrupt Intervention
- Dead Man's Switch
- Deadlock
- Hex: Pentimento
- Jolt
- Pop goes the Weasel
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
Now of those, which ones are simply DECENT or SITUATIONAL:
- Corrupt Intervention - The problem with corrupt is the same as it has always been, all it does is make it so you won't lose 3 gens at the end of your first chase, now you'll only lose 1 or 2, then the perk is completely gone and you have no perk for the rest of the game. If it had some other effect, maybe like lethal pursuer where it increased the duration of gen blocking perks by some number of seconds, it might get a bit more value. Additionally, it isn't actually as good as lethal pursuer because good survivors can hide out a significant portion of the timer, or sneak by the killer and start doing gens. If you run to the blocked gens, where the survivors probably are, good chance is they'll sneak by you. If you defend the unblocked gens, good change they'll just wait out the timer, and you basically bought "2 extra minutes" of game time, but with no progress happening on either side.
- Dead Man's Switch - Dead man's switch is really only good when paired with Pain Res, it COULD be good when paired with oppression if that didn't have a 6 year cooldown. But the main problem is, getting survivors off gens when you aren't a handful of specific killers isn't easy when you are probably on the other side of the map. And on top of that, the gen blocking starts taking effect immediately after you hook the person, meaning that, by the time you walk to another gen a survivor is repairing, you probably spend 10-15 of the 30 seconds. Then in blocks the gen, now what, good job, you just blocked a gen that nobody was working on anyway. So the value there is pretty minimal.
- Hex: Pentimento - Boons hard counter this, because it really is only good when paired with Hex: Plaything. Which, good players will often just completely ignore, because they know you will have pentimento with it, but even with that perk, activating pentimento is actually quite hard. You have to: Hook a survivor, then THEY have to cleanse the totem after they get unhooked, or some other survivor has to after 90 seconds, assuming anyone even sees it (plaything has a low impact against good players generally since most killers are loud AF anyway) and then you have to walk back to the totem and activate it. That is assuming that the survivors don't have a boon to make it so you can't activate it. THEN when you activate it, survivors will know where the totem is because they see the giant blob that shows them where the Hex was at when it was cleansed anyway, so it likely won't last long.
- Jolt - Jolt is highly map and killer dependent. If you are playing a killer who generally downs survivors with their ability you will get no value from this perk. Generally this is good on the "weaker" killers, but then those killers are already having to 3 gen anyway, so giving a 7.2 second gen regression on a few gens near you when you down someone isn't going to be adding any tremendous value. Because similar to eruption, all you did was buy yourself a few seconds to pick up the survivor you just downed and hook them.
- Pop goes the Weasel - This perk was heavily nerfed to be "current progress" what a complete joke, but this is where we are at. This perk is only decent when you factor in the fact that you get the 2.5% from the base kit plus the 20% current progress (no idea which applies first, but lets say it gives you the best version) that means that a gen at 45 seconds, is going to lose 11.25 seconds of progress. So really, the perk is still kind of a joke when compared to what we have had in the past.
So where does that leave us with "good" gen defense perks that are actually viable to use:
- Deadlock - This is really the only REALLY good one left, it gives you a full 120 seconds of gen defense, or 1.3 gens worth for a total game, and blocks gens with the most progress, allowing you to get the next gen that is going to pop. But similar to dead man's, this perk still isn't really THAT much stronger than it. Because it doesn't really offer much in the way of "gen defense" but it is more of a "gen rush" protection. But even then, 30 seconds is an extremely short amount of time for this perk to be nearly as good as old eruption, or Pain res/Dead man's
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance - This perk will still be decent, but not nearly as powerful as before. You'll still basically have to pair it with dead man's switch to be good. But given that you get 4 uses, all this does is help you when you want to "play nice". You'll get a solid 90 seconds or 1 gen of regression out of it, if you use it to it's fullest potential. And that is generally where i draw the line. If the perk can give you a full gen of defense, it is probably viable.
The problem with this game is time efficiency. Base regression is SOOOO slow compared to survivors PROgression. Taking nearly 360 seconds to regress a gen from 99% is so dumb, and most gen perks only shave off maybe 10 seconds if you are lucky of gen time. 10 seconds is not even enough time to pick up a survivor, wait for the animation, walk to a hook, and the hook them, then wait for the animation. That by itself is going to take 2.5 + ~8 + 1.5 = 12 seconds. So, while you might have just shaved off 12 second of gen time from some of the weaker perks. Hooking that survivor costs you 12 seconds. Meanwhile 3 survivors are working on gens, meaning they still gained 25% of a gens worth of progress between the 3 of them despite your 12 second reduction.
The only viable perks are the one that, over the course of a game, can save at least a full gen's worth of progress. And even then, they are only really useful if they offer some major BURST regression/defense. Because you always have to be thinking that, you have 4 survivors. So even saving 25 SECONDS, when you hook a survivor with pain res, you are still only GAINING a SINGLEsecond of time in your favor as the killer there. 12 seconds to hook the survivor, but 36 seconds of gen progress and 25 seconds of burst regession = 36 seconds - 12 seconds - 25 seconds = -1 second of PROgression on gens.
Once you look at the math, you can see how ridiculous it is. With how long chases can be, god pallets and such, a single pallet break in a chase, increases the length of that chase by a full 20 seconds AT MINIMUM. That doesn't even factor in if the survivor wins a mindgame, which probably adds another 20-30 seconds of chase time depending on the mindgame. This is why you lose 3 gens in the first chase, and why a single mistake in a chase often will cost you the entire game. And now you see why 3genning, camping, and tunneling is pretty much all you can do.
And if you are going to say: "i don't use gen defense perks and i do fine as *insert low tier killer here*" then post the receipts on youtube, so we can watch how terrible the survivors that you are going against are.
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Not it doesn't.
The CoB and Overcharge got totally destroy.
PR nerf that it doesn't only get less maximum value but also let it can't use together with tunnel and 3 gen playing style,which is the only 2 viable strategy in this patch so if the medkit nerf can't save the hit and run play style ,PR will be as trash as CoB and Overcharge......... maybe not that kind of trash, but you know what i mean.
And in the same time
All the nerf survivor got is DH can no longer use in first chase,and make survivor need to bring a different heal perk.
I don't see these two is near to even,and don't forget the truth that killer's regression perks are being nerfed multiple times in last few patches too, which makes killer doesn't have too many choices to replace the perk being nerfed this time.
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I am more shocked as Killer main that survivors need a bandage for this patch. We killer mains are used to have limbs severed in patches, so the fact that survivors got a "boo-boo" is cause for celebration. But yeah, run Devour Hope and End Game perk builds if you want any ounce of play NICE in your killer builds, and march on. If they break your Devour Hope, then they deserve the camp/tunnel they get, because you simply can't 12 hook against even AFK survivors.
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Happy times are coming: Deadlock, NOED, No Way Out, Perk X
This is the build you will see in a lot of matches now. Probably with STBFL, Bamboozle or Lethal
Sometimes the good old Spirit Fury/Enduring.
Everything else vs. good teams? Into the trash bin
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What a good and detailed post from someone that knows their stuff and plays versus good survivors.People don't see the bigger picture that medkits are still the strongest item survivors can bring,Dh while still usable can easily be replaced by a different exhaustion perk of similar value,CoH still has value for good coordinated teams.
However killers lost all regression, and have barely a few blocking perks left.While we need to wait and test out the new Pr before an accurate rating can be made,i fear the high rng and poor perk synergy will make it unviable.(You need to mix hooks,hope you have a scurge hook near that survivors can't bodyblock or sabo,once you make it to the hook hope a gen doesn't pop,and hope you don't get denied by Deadlock a vastly superior perk).
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I find breakdowns of hard numbers like this kind of interesting, in a way- but I think the most relevant part of them is that your numbers towards the end of your post there, regarding getting a hook, very much misses a pretty major part of the game, which is that getting a hook while all four survivors are alive is an immediate -50% penalty to generator efficiency. The very second that one survivor peels away to get the save, that is two survivors who cannot be working on generators, and since you're aiming to maximise your pressure as killer, you're going to be going and chasing one of the remaining two before the save happens if you can help it, to ensure the maximum number of survivors are occupied with something that isn't a generator.
That's what your slowdown perks are for, to give you windows of extra time to generate that kind of pressure. That's why a lot of the perks that are left are still totally worth running, because the point of them is to buy extra time to disable the survivors naturally, not for any one of your perks to be the actual main pressure preventing the survivors from finishing generators.
Now, I know there's a few issues with that framing- for one, toolboxes and a handful of other tools do make generators fly too fast for that to really be as effective as it should be, and that is a problem that should be addressed, but luckily the slowdown we have left is still good enough to mostly combat that against a majority of teams. Second, there is the pretty glaring question of, well, what if someone isn't hanging on a hook that long? What if the save happens almost immediately? In that case, it's pretty clear whoever got the save wasn't on a generator to begin with, they were lurking around near the down to get the unhook. It's not as good for you, but it still means the generator efficiency went down noticeably- and let's face it, that kind of save happens while you're still around, so you've got a choice of two targets to pressure if you deem it a good idea.
Your job as a killer isn't to regress the generators down as far as possible. Your job as a killer is to prevent the survivors from escaping, and from that lens, the most important aspect of generators is binary; are they complete, or are they still being repaired? That's why perks like Deadlock and Merciless Storm (when a skillcheck is missed, anyway) are still good despite only affecting one generator for a short time; they prevent the generator from being finished, giving you time to generate more pressure with your downs and hooks. Obviously progression matters, it's easier for survivors to finish a 99'd generator than it is for them to finish a completely empty one, but that element only matters insofar as it relates to the binary mentioned above.
Now, of course, some slowdown perks could and should be buffed to better reflect this, they aren't all on an equal + neutral playing field. Grim Embrace should show all auras, Oppression should have its cooldown lowered as far as possible, DMS could stand to have a longer duration now that it can't be as effectively paired with Pain Res, and so on and so forth. However, that doesn't mean we don't have anything worth running so long as we understand what it is we're trying to achieve with our perks in the first place.
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CoH was trashy on PTB because of more time required to heal. With only 16 seconds 50% of extra speed is seems decent and that isn't too opressive for killer.
CoH on PTB is going to be identical to CoH coming out of PTB.
With base healing being 24 seconds, a +50% CoH would shave off 8 seconds.
With base healing being 16 seconds, a +100% CoH would shave off 8 seconds.
So if PTB CoH was 'trashy', then it will still be trashy coming out of it. Overall, while this isn't the change I would've gone for, I do think this will work for the perk and put it in a fairer position.
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You're saying dh is bad perk even now? I disagree it's too strong it changes game completely if used succesfully. Most survivors do get value from it at least once and usually in first chase so the nerf will make first chases shorter.
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You need to take advantage of the survivors either being injured all game, which is a quite underated advantage (i usually doing fine as legion because there will be the one moment where you see 1 or 2 survivors being outzoned, easy down), or having to heal for a long time which means they're not doing gens. That's at least the idea behind the update i think. We'll see if it works. I was trying out aura- and anti-heal builds and they're fun, but i think they should definitely up the basekit gen regression a little bit and rework Prove Thyself. It will all come down a little bit more to your skill in chase and your game sense and i think that's great.
Jolt has been a joke for a while now, people are overestimating it's value. Most of the time you will not regress more than one gen and then the regression value is way to low. Corrupt is still a good perk in my eyes, if you're good at finding survivors, it definitely helps when you have a bad first chase, but can have no value at all if you get an early down. It's not gamebreaking but something literally every killer can still use to some value. Lately I was playing Grim Embrace with other "hook 4 people"-perks and was having a lot of fun, but against a good team it's nothing to write home about.
Killer has always been about gaining time and fast chases, i hope the new anti heal-meta will help here but i'm indecisive
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