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Knight's guards shouldn't have down potential
Knight's most efficient gameplay style while chasing a survivor is to drop a guard at a loop to shut it down, letting all the work be done by the AI with minimal brain input from the player itself. The fact that this gameplay encourages W gaming and, if not in close range to another loop, a free hit/down, is simply bad design. In fact, the majority of the playerbase isn't happy with that killer at all, as proved by the huge amount of negative feedback received.
Anywae, what it should be like is that guards shouldn't be able to down survivors. Buff their utility if you want, buff their movement speed. Let that bot (who am I refering to with this, the AI or the Knight player?) get the the free injury, but why should they get also a free down?
Knight's guards shouldn't be any different than Legion's frenzy tbh
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Legion used to be lethal with his power. They removed that for years, and only brought it back recently, and under specific conditions (5th Frenzy hit).
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You don't know what to complain about anymore, do you? Knight is a stupid killer because it depends on AI, but it's weak, I met very few strong knights in my expirience. This killer should be reworked not because is strong, but because in a game based on mind games and predict an AI dependant killer doesn't fit at all.
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He is not weak quite opposite probably one of strongest if not strongest killer on console. Blight is unplayable, nurse is harder and was nerfed to ground. Well I suck with spirit maybe she is better. But knight is much easier than any of those killers. And actually he has less counters than any of those killers only problem he has is that he is still only 115% speed so survivors can hold W little bit until he catches up.
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I play on ps5 and trust me that knight isn't that strong. The real problem is that you know when he places the guards, and because of that you think "Oh, he whants to close the loop, I find another one". The facts that guards can be used to defend hooks is quite ok, because if you play in swf one take the guard and another one procede with the save. In chase only the assassin (I don't remember their name, so with assassin I intend the fast one) can be lethal, and the jailer can be good because he find survs in a wider range. What will make knights broken af is that he can press the power button and insta place a guard, without designing the path. But as it is now, is max B tier with good add on, max B, because in my opinion is C tier.
And for the other killers you named, Blight is playable the real problem is that he bounce in every ######### pixel of the map and, at the same time, lots of times you don't bounce on solid objects (only because of this is very difficult to play). Spirit is very strong, but you need to play very very well (I recommend you to use mother daughter and blossom). I never liked Nurse so I don't know how to play her efficiently. Knight is a killer ruled by Ai, and as I said an AI killer doesn't fit at all in dbd.
Sorry for my English, I'm Italian.
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You mention minimal brain input. If the Knight drops his guard on a loop, just leave the loop. You get hit? Of course, it's how the game goes. A survivor lasting more than a minute in chase should never be a thing.
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You're essentially pushing for a worse Legion with lots of extra steps and a longer cooldown.
If you really want Knight fixed you should propose actual solutions that still keep him good because what you're recommending makes him significantly worse...and he's already pretty bad.
Something like nerfing his insta drop guards at loops that you dislike but buffing his long range guard snipes. Those long range guard snipes are AI downing you, but they require skill to place as you're tracking with sound that far away.
Guards that don't down are useless...which is why he's generally quite bad right now.
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Knight's anti-loop is boring but he's not actually that strong in chase despite that and in order to reduce guard lethality at loops he would need buffs in other areas.
I'm just brainstorming here, but maybe your idea could be applied only to guards with short path distances (so it would apply to insta-dropped guards) and any guard over a certain range threshold would behave the same way it does now (with the capability to down survivors). This way, we're not nerfing long-range guards at all because that's not the issue with him.
I would then also argue half of each of his three best addons (Map of the Realm, Dried Horsemeat, Call to Arms) should be taken out of the addons and put into his basekit (so for example, Carnifex's base patrol vision range would be 10 meters instead of 8, and the addon would add 2 meters instead of 4, keeping it at 12 with the addon). Then he probably needs a buff to guards created from longer patrol paths, and since we're basically making guards similar to Legion's Frenzy with this idea if they're short-range/insta-dropped at a loop, I think it'd be reasonable to make any guard hit apply deep wound to healthy survivors (not just Assassin). This won't even make much of a difference as it's usually more optimal for the survivor to get hit by the Knight anyway and not the guard, if they have a choice between the two.
One other thing they could do with longer-range guards is nerf the Standard with longer patrol paths. If the Knight isn't there to pressure with the guard you can just grab the flag after 5 seconds (10 if it's Carnifex) and at that point the guard isn't providing much of a delay. I think it's fine as it is with short-range guards in chase but a bit too powerful if the Knight is far away/not chasing the survivor. You don't even need to grab the flag at all to avoid getting injured by guards outside of chase, so that wouldn't really change, but they could provide more macro pressure by delaying survivors a bit longer.
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Ever since the AI was "fixed" and guards respect pallet drops, he's not that bad anymore.
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People have this goofy idea of neutering his anti loop by punishing short dropped guards. It doesn't work. Without the paltry anti loop he has you're down to chasing survivors with your orb and spawning a guard on them which plays like discount spirit on top of doing..... absolutely nothing. Congratulations, your guards are chasing someone on the other side of the map. Now what? They're gone by the time you catch up and if they're not then you're playing the loop just like you would if you'd short-dropped the guard at the last loop. It just makes his long chases take even longer and enforces the three-gen thing at his only valid option.
I dunno if people don't play knight or don't think out these ideas. Or if they just hate knight and want him to be unplayable.
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I 4K reliably almost all my games with knight so I just don't know how you can say he is weak. He is easy to use I place the guards and let him chase survivor and myself go other direction and create uncounterable situation for survivor where he gets hit no matter what he does. His chasing power is S tier but only problem for him is that he lacks mobility which make him in my opinion low A tier. With any other killer I can't do that there is always counterplay survivors can do.
For example agains't nurse survivor can double back, 360s, even use object to make you hit them or locker and the lunge anyway feels very short when I play her. And well I don't play her often anymore as range and starstruck were taken away from her. They should kept the range in my opinion maybe make them just shorter 10% and 15%.
I have played blight too and survivors 360s my every hit and the power sucks on console. I never seen good console blight only once I saw okay one but he was still bad compared to pc blight. To play blight you need pc with keyboard and mouse. He is just too hard to play on controller.
I have played spirit and she is too hard for me she is exactly opposite of killer I like to play. She is only 110% which I hate and survivors turn invicible while you use power and you should track them with sound and some visuals like grass moving which I also don't like. Im just too blind and deaf to play her... Also im running out of mother daughter and cherryl blossom add ons which make her playable for me.
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while i agree the issue is that if you make knight not able to down people in a chase with his power, he becomes really bad. If he can use his power in a chase he's extremely unfun and uninteractive in chase.
He needed a full rework from the second he was released
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It may not work, I'm mostly just throwing ideas out at this point because I don't really know what else to do with him.
If this makes him too weak then he probably just needs a more substantial rework because as he is now he's terrible killer design and gets free anti-loop for doing nothing. But nerfing his chase potential too much will reinforce 3-genning, that's a fair point.
I don't have a problem with anti-loop, I like interesting anti-loop abilities because it provides something unique to that killer beyond just the regular m1 killer gameplay. I have a problem with anti-loop that basically allows the game to do all the work for you, and the Knight's anti-loop is the only anti-loop in the game that does that. Artist's is fine because her anti-loop doesn't do that; even though the survivor's best option is often to leave the loop against her too just like with Knight, her crows have more counterplay involved and can be juked, and the Artist player needs to actually land their shots in order for it to work. Knight's has no such gameplay for either side.
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I played knight a lot before building my opinion about him. Every match 3/4 or 4/4 (3/4 for the hatch, I don't slug for the hatch. It's boring for both sides). Probably I say it's weak because I find him really boring to play and I don't play him at the max of its possibilities. Obviously the "uncounterable" tactic as you said is strong, but you have to make surv take the guard and when I play against knights it's easy to avoid them.
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I play knight a lot and the power is ver janky.
Most of the time the AI will run the wrong way for a while when baited as it spawns.
Guards are mostly there to waste time or setup a hit, unless its assassin you shouldn't get hit ever if played correctly.
Post edited by Spectralfx on1 -
Sometimes killers just do stuff. It's not necessarily a problem to be fixed. Plague negates healing builds. Dredge hampers your ability to see stuff. On occasion onryo can straight up murder somebody. These are just attributes of the killers and that's ok.
Play knight against good survivors sometime. The other day I went against a Dwight that juiced me in ways I did not know were possible as knight and it was honestly very enlightening. He's moderately loopable if you keep track of where you have been. Certainly nowhere near artist in terms of anti loop.
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Only big maps have been problem for me with knight as sometimes the gen speeds feel unreal. Im pretty good at countering dh so it has not been issue for me.
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I agree that Knight is boring no matter which side your on, but gimping his power isn't the answer.
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your post is exactly what I thought when I read this post. I knew survivor would hate knight but who knew that they would hate knight so much to make him a worse m1 legion.
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How about: if the hit that would put the survivor into the dying state is within the Knight's terror radius (or 32m, so it can't be cheesed with TR suppression perks), that survivor is instead put into deep wounds.
The guards keep their lethality, but not in scenarios where the survivor is forced into being hit by a pincer move.
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If they use guard there is not much you can do other than hope they miss it. But at least the distance they get from it is less as you don't get hit cooldown as killer. But I always try to catch survivors before the guard does so most important thing is to be patient and not to lunge immediatelly just wait them to use it. When survivors avoid the guard patrol and you force them to go different loop same thing applies to be patient as now you have to m1 them. It does take sometime to get used to baiting it out I have learned not to lunge on injured survivors but it can be just reflex sometimes I still do it when im not focused.
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The knight is stale af worst killer in the game due to the fact of no counter play really sets down at every loop and most of them love camping hence why they need the ai would remove him entirely in my opinion vittorio is mid as well and so are his perks really except potential energy but very situational tbh
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I too want to play as a killer without any power whatsoever.
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My way of fixing the knight would be buff the guards to try and get ppl to have them actually want their guards patrolling a area instead of always hunting with them the first fix would be the assassin his patrol line and his radius need to be hidden and is only good at long distance snipes if you have the proper add ons but if you have him patrolling a area he is so noticed that he is easy to escape. his hunts he should reveal all the survivers to in courage the knight to go after others. Next is the cornifex during hunts he should be breaking pallets that are dropped (maybe give him a terror radius). Last but most needed is the jailor he needs to be uneffected by unhooks and during hunts he should be denying vaults and lockers to all who are in his radius. This way they each do something different and each plays by there name and encourages long drawn out patrols and hunts not just always hunting also increase the jailors patrol time by a few more seconds.
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Guards should be able to do Knight work for him:
Looping, Destroying Pallets, Kicking Gens, Patrolling Gens, Putting Survivors on Hook etc...
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All I'd like is to be able to stun/blind them, either or. Is it true you can head on stun them? I havn't been able to test this but I was told by someone I could.
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Then they would be basically useless tbh. He just needs a minimum path length, making them completely unable to down would make them hardly a threat
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Nah if you make it so players have to have a minimum path length it makes it so you can't set traps for the players or make it so you cant have them guard a gen while it's regression to buy a little time which the knight very much needs he is a drawn out killer like the trapper not a blitz rusher killer like the legion but he is forced to support his useless ai to get a double hit down or he would be to slow other wise to win if he did not have to support his guards in every chase he would be a lot better of a killer the guards do not function in a two m1 killer team the guards should be supporting him in chases or denying a set area to players for a duration but as it is now it's set up as summoning a separate runner who runs at different speeds. We are rewarded for long distance snipes with the assassin now so he is a lot better but that still leaves the jailor who has no true role in the group cause we are punished if we have him patrol a area like great he has a massive detective radius and that's it. The cornifex he best for breaking pallets and DMG a gen oh wait you can't do that cause he has to run after players cause if your guards are not on chase they have no benefit being there we are rewarded for chases not holding areas which makes his team almost useless in anything but a chase
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Well actually, after they buffed his guards you can place a guard at max length and get hits pretty often especially if you surprise the survivor.
I think you may be playing against low skill knights if all you are seeing are guards being dropped at loops. That’s only optimal when the survivor is in a corner tile. Corner tiles should result in a free hit every time when zoned correctly.
Also, the knight doesn’t have a terror radius while placing guards. You can use this to your advantage by surprising a survivor when you come out of patrol mode for a free hit. Bonus points if the freshly hit survivor panic sprints straight into the guard you just placed.
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As someone who plays a lot of Knight - and have played quite a bit a against him - you're playing wrong.
If the guards doesn't have a down potential, Knight would be unplayable, as you could always run towards the guards, get a speed boost and get away. Would be better to just ignore his power and play like a M1 killer (like Pig).
Droping a guard in a loop its the worst possible way to play Knight, as its only effective when you are cornered in the map. If you see the knight is just dropping the guard in a loop, just run in the opposite direction. The knight will waste his patrol, you will be far and he will need to start the chase again.
If a guard sees you and start a hunt, focus on getting the banner. When you hear the loud sound, you will be able to get the banner. If you get the banner, you gain a speed boost and a endurance status effect. If the Knight, zone you correctly and protect the banner, you will have a hard time looping, but you can try to waste as much time as you can, giving your team more time to do gens.
Probably, if you are getting hit by the guards, OR you are not jumping windows, dropping pallets at the right moment, or is the Knight merit to zone you correctly to get a health state. Maybe you are getting hit because you are being outplayed, not because knight is easy. Blight/Nurse/Spirit/Artist/PH/Cenobite is far more opressive in chase than the Knight is.
And, of course, if you are reffering to long range patrol snipes, just run away, as most of the guards won't be able to catch, specially if you drop a pallet or jump a window. If the Knight is not near, the guards just harass, but they have a hard time getting a hit.
TBH, i think Knight is very misunderstood by our community - like the Artist. Most of the time people try to loop them as they do M1 killers, and get frustrated. You need to think differently, as windows and pallets does not mean instant safety.
I still think he needs some buffs to be viable against the best survivors in this game, but he is quite OK against most of the teams. When people learn how to play against him, i think most of the hate of community will go down.
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So that's still worse Legion and changes basically nothing from the OP.
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Yeah right, just keep running, maps are infinite and you can keep holding w. YOUR fault for getting zoned on the corner!!!! Now get downed because this game was totally designed to be chased by two things at the same time + let a bot do all the job with 0 brain usage from the player
"if he insta drops a guard on a loop, he will be far away" -> wow you'll gain a whole 2 meters of distance
I'd like to follow up on that "just think differently" too with something regarding how much thinking this killer requires to play, but eh. I'll just leave it like this and let you imagine what it is about
The killers you mentioned at least give both players some agency
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people calling the killer a bot while also being unable to outplay an actual bot is truly an ironic thing to say the least
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TBH, i can't imagine how someone can feel the bots are that strong, specially since they are the same as a killer holding W against you - the weakest killer strat. They only feel "strong" when you get surprised by the patrol - which is made with long range patrols when the surv are not paying attetion - or when both the Knight and his guard are chasing you. And i will say it again: Knight and the guard zoning you its his power. Without this, its not the Knight, its another killer.
About the "2 meters of distance" gained when the knight instadrop, unless its a Jailer with range addons, most of the time the knight will not get the hunt, be behind you without a speed boost and with no power. It will be the same as looping the Pig or Trapper withou his traps. I can't imagine how this can be hard, as its just a M1 killer.
Seriously, buy the Knight, play like 10 matches with him. You will see how easily most of the survs counter the knight power. Or you will confirm that knight its just a braindead killer getting easy hits left or right. Then we talk
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Why can't people think a little about their suggestions?
It's not that hard. There is 0 attempt for balancing.
"Hey, I don't like this killer, so what can be changed so noone wants to play him ever again."
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If you go look at mine I have suggested balance changes for him that should be fair and lore accurate for each guard
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it's better when guards are chase focused, if you buff their patroling aspect, then you would bring back 3-gen Knight.
I don't really think Knight needs changes now. I enjoy playing him and I don't mind playing against him.
But same goes for Skull merchant, so I can be just weird...
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I want some small buffs on Knight to make him a solid Tier A killer. Against most of the teams, the Knight is fine. But against very good survivors or some decent SWF Knight struggles a little bit, and for that situation i think Knight need some tweaks.
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Most killers struggle against good team.
There are way weaker killers that need buff.
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I think most of the "Tier A" killers (Cenobite, Huntress, Plague, Pyramid Head, Wesker, Artist) can deal with good teams playing normally.
I understand that there are many weaker killers than the Knight that need a buff, but this is not a reason to not give some tweaks for some killers that still struggle against better survivors or are addon dependant. I think both things can be accomplished at the same time and will be very healthy for the game.
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Agreed there are way weaker killers that need buffs like trapper. but we are not here for them we are here for the knoght.and my suggestions arnt just patrol it was also chase oriented. Getting guards into chase requires you to use specific add ons like map (this one is on every build currently) and horse meat and the call to arms currently if the assassin can be more of a silent killer instead of a assassin who is screaming I am here every time you put him out there the only one who needs better ways to patrol is the jailor who is the weakest link in the group in both chase and patrol the only time I have seen him use full is if you are running the iridescent that exposes a survivor every fourth guard then you have to double up on one of your guards so you always know it's going to be the jailor exposing them as no matter how you line it up he will always be the fourth guard which is not bad other then this can hinder some builds with the knight unless you can keep chases going
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Ok how is this
Assassin inflicts blindness/oblivious and exhaustion during hunts only on the hunted
Jailor locks vault locations in the location of the hunted and can atc unhooking survivor during hunts and causes broken status when hits are successful
Cornifex breaks pallets that he passed through and begins regression on any gen not being worked on and inflicts sloppy butcher upon hit
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That would be kinda broken.
Knight doesn't need it. He is fine as it is.
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In my opinion the knight should be reworked, hes literally boring because of need to placa guards just next to survivors in chase. Actually you can check my rework idea in the discussion i created earlier
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How is that broken (like maybe a few tweeks are needed but not broken)? He is ok where he is (aka not broken ) but could be better the ideal is to have him s tier like the nurse and blight (where all killers dream of being ) and should not feel like his power is like throwing out different runners who can't catch anything with out him there to get a insta down or insure at least one hit because with out the knight there his guards maybe hit 25% (which is decreasing due to newer perks) of the time and it's normally the carnifex out of the three who gets a hit unless your long range snipping assassin which leaves jailor unused as he has nothing to contribute but during the hunt time the knight is a basic m1 killer like the trapper or is kicking gens/pallets which yes is nice but you arnt getting value out of your guards during that time slowing down a killer who already struggles to keep up much like the trapper as the games get faster paced the knight excels at long drawn games much like three gens but that was his only saving grace as cause now without three gening or playing the same way as every other player who plays as him (aka same perks and add-ons) he struggles hard against good teams that know how his ability works and can so easily shut him down that games seem unfair for the killer and boring for survivors due to how easily they can get away if the knight is not with the guard every step of the way aka hunting the same survivor for an instant down which yes is strong in its own right but not much of a threat as teams know where the guard and knight is at all times can shut down the guard mid chase for someone by grabbing the banner once it spawns and both knight and guard are in chase cause we all know the guard is not going to get that hit with out the knight to back it up and force a hit meaning the knight can't pressure two at the same time as with out the guards the knight is easily looped due to not having a ability for good portion of the game when guards are patrolling or in chase and that's not even counting the down time he has to draw the patrol lines leaving him open to a flashlight when he stands up cause his guard is miles away and not a threat at that time unless they get chase immediately with only the assassin who can score a hit if the surviver is not prepared but they will be if their teammates are good in call outs which leads us back to the guards suck with out the knight as reinforcement 75% of the time and need fixed I'd settle for 40% of guard successful hits on their own
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I think the knight’s kit should have more focus on chasing 2 people at once instead of just chasing one person twice. like, micromanaging is really fun on this killer but the lackluster guards and the really restrictive patrol setting kinda suck which just leads to players feeling like spawning guards on top of loops gets more value.
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I mean, if you want to win with a Knight, this is already how you play.
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