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Spine Chill is too strong vs Stealth killers
Spine Chill was changed a while back so that it now activates when the killer is in 36m range, regardless of terror radius.
Survivors with the perk can just go to a pallet or any safe loop even if they don't know where the killer is coming from, so approaching gens at an angle isnt that helpful.
Even just one spine chill can hurt the killer immensely; the survivor running it can pair up with other players, effectively protecting 2+ survivors with a single perk and forcing the stealth killer (usually a typical m1) into a lengthy chase. With the new gen indicators it's even easier to tell if a spine chill user feels danger approaching. A spine chill user can even just do gens in the middle of the map, effectively protecting the entire back half of the map as they'll know when a killer is in that side of the map.
At least old spine chill had counterplay in the sense that killers could anticipate the perk and turn their camera at an angle so as to not trigger the perk. What is the killer supposed to do now?
I think this perk, as well as Premonition, needs a full rework so it can be used more often against non-stealth killers and not be that strong against stealths.
I'm all for stealth counter perks but they need to be fair.
TLDR: Spine Chill/Premonition can be applied to an extent to create a guaranteed loss situation for certain killers, something that no other perk can currently do.
Comments
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I barely see any Spin chill users since the nerf (and I was a faithful user with iron will). This perk is usually used by new players who are really bad at the game, so Spine chill is barely a threat to an above average killer, stealth ones included.
People using it usually make a mistake which causes them to get revealed by the killer who can chases them.
So, no Spine chill isn't too strong, or you just need to get better and I say that in a very respectful manner. We were all learning the game at some point and that still goes on.
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Even if spine chill was actually this good (it's clearly not btw), what's wrong with survivors who waste a perk slot on it getting some value against about 6 killers out of 31, considering the perk is utterly useless against the rest of them?
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If you want to discuss experience rather than the actual logic behind why the perk is unfun to go against, I have 7k hours in the game and my Ghostface guide is on Otzdarva's FAQ. I scrim comp teams pretty often these days and a single spine chill can be pretty bad for you for the reasons i mentioned.
Let's just stick to the logic. It doesn't matter how many people are running it, especially because it doesnt help much against TR killers, which is why I suggested it needs a full rework than to just be a stealth killer hard counter.
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The issue is that the killer won't know if anyone's running the perk beforehand, aside from that just being bad game design. Why not make it more effective against all types of killers and not have it hard counter a particular subset? Especially since accessibility options like the TR indicator is already in the game.
The perk allows all that I mentioned above. A survivor in a skilled team can use it to deny downs pretty effectively.
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Spine chill does make playing against stealth killers rather easy. In this particular case now the visual terror radius is in I think Spine Chill having a CD akin to Premonition would help (though I think it does?). But if Spine Chill got changed to not reveal stealth killers, everyone who uses it would move over to premonition, they are both designed to help deal with stealth.
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It's part of the game that nearly everything has its counter. I wouldn't say that Spine chill is a hard counter, because all stealth killers actually make noise.
Excuse me for not having 7k hours but I humbly can say this perk is not really a trouble. I get much more destroy as a killer against swf than with this perk.
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Are we going to ask to also nerf iron will, because it's exceptionally good against spirit but bad for everyone else? Nah. Spine chill is useless for everyone but stealth hit&run killers. Let the perk have some niche value. It's not like survivors should get refund in healing perks if they face plague. That would also be stupid...
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You need to remember that SWFs using comms and highly experience DBD players are typically the ones who get the most value from Spine Chill. Just because you "barely see any Spine Chill users" in pubs doesn't change the fact that the perk gives an unfair advantage against stealth killers.
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It's true that all stealth killers make noise but the range is very small (<8m) and usually just helps players not get grabbed. This is a huge difference from the 36m range that lets survs hold W to any safe area on the map.
I believe you being able to kill swfs with the perk, but again, the logic is all still there. Spine chill still allows all the aformentioned plays regardless of whether or not the survivors choose to apply them. I've seen it quite a bit personally.
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Glad someone has noticed this. The perk is pretty weak in SOLO Q and that's why I see a lot of people interpreting the perk as not worthy of looking into but people don't realise how strong it can be if you play in a SWF.
Many perks become much stronger in swf that's pretty obvious but this perk can outright counter a type of killers, I can't think of another perk that can outright counter a type of killer like this one. Seeing as this guy plays a lot of comp I'm assuming it's problematic as comp teams have already great comms and having this single perk in a single slot on a single survivor is pretty strong as it can stop ambushes completely.
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That's true; I think both perks need a rework in this aspect. For instance, premonition could be adapted into a mindgame counter by reducing the range significantly and the cooldown a bit.
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Good spirits can still catch players with iron will, and dont forget the perk WAS nerfed. Whereas good survivors with spine chill will still have the advantage over a good stealth killer player. You're also forgetting that survivors can heal themselves against plague anyway, she doesn't hard counter healing like what spine chill does to stealth killers.
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Good survivors will not cleanse (until last gen pops) so no. It hard-counters any healing (or provides strongest projectile weapon in game - rivalled only by oni's ability - but for a good reason both of them have hard condition and limited time).
Also IW will hard-counter spirit. She can no longer use her ability and be directed by sounds (as phasing sounds are way louder) - she can only use other means (prediction, moving grass, scratchmarks and pools of blood). Unnerfed an popular IW was the reason why barely anyone played spirit before patch 6.1.
But this is all fine. Having niche perks that do something in their niche is healthy. It would be bad if you had perks that are generally useless and still bad at their niche (I am looking at you Potential energy).
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And survivors won't know if they're going against a stealth killer, therefore risking a useless perk if they bring Spine Chill. Just like killers can risk bringing a useless perk with shattered hope if they really hate boons. Just like survivors can bring medkits without knowing they're going against Plague, or Hillbilly and Blight risk going on an indoor map... Everything has its counter, risk & reward and all that.
Spine chill was clearly designed to help against stealth killers, with the idea of having an advantage over them if you dislike them to the point of risking bringing a useless perk. Spine Chill also used to have other advantages (I used to play it for the vault speed), but now it's really just a anti-stealth perk (and again it's really not that good at that anymore), which is fine in my book.
I don't know why BHVR suddenly decided an anti-stealth killer perk was unfair to stealth killers, but it's no surprise that even after nerfing it to the ground instead of giving it a proper rework it still serves the same purpose (albeit in a much weaker manner). I personnally believe Spine Chill was a fine perk and didn't need a rework, but now it's literally just a way worse version of the same perk so saying it's stronger than before just sounds wrong to me.
However, even if I disagree with you reasoning I absolutely agree Spine Chill should be completely reworked. I still think the original Spine Chill was good, but considering BHVR nerfed it bc it was unfair to stealth killers they should have made a completely different perk instead of just making it bad enough that it doesn't feel unfair anymore.
(Also the accessibility settings have nothing to do with this, and i've never seen or heard of any skilled team or single player using the new spine chill, when they can literally just look around them.)
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But that's just bad game design, perks shouldnt be so biased towards a group of killers. I'm not saying there shouldn't be perks to help with this but not to the degree that Spine Chill does, being a constant beacon of information.
The nerf you mentioned? It was a buff to the perk; stealth killers have far less counterplay.
One of the comp teams I scrim against as wraith has a dedicated spine chill user that sits closer to the middle of the map and is able to defend all the survivors on their half of the map, you'd be surprised at how effective it can be in a group.
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So you're saying that a specific perk (Iron Will) was making it more difficult to play a killer (Spirit) and that the perk put that killer at a huge disadvantage if anyone used that perk. And you're also saying it's ok for stealth killers to be put at a huge disadvantage if anyone is using a specific perk (Spine Chill) because it's a "niche perk"?
You're missing the big picture. Any perk that CAN be abused by highly experienced players or coordinated SWFs, WILL be abused by them. It's not ok for a perk to give a significant advantage against stealth killers just because it's a "niche" perk.
Also, IW no longer hard counters Spirit. Grunts of pain are reduced by 75% so good Spirit mains still have counterplay against it.
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I completely agree with OP; yes people think it's weak because it tends to be associated with newer players who tend to hide often, but it can be devastating in skilled hands. What's more, it just feels very unfun to play against, forcing us into disadvantageous m1 chases, where we can be countered with a simple bodyblock rather than setting up skillful ambushes as intended. Speaking as a ghostface main with two thousand hours as well.
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I wouldnt mind if it gets changed, i like to play stealth killers quite alot aswell but in my normal games i rarely see it, i used to see it more often before it got changed a while back.
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I personnally disagree about needing every perk and item to affect every killer equally, I think it makes things more interesting strategy wise to have things such as Spine Chill. However I'm aware this isn't a popular opinion and that even BHVR disagrees, which is why I agree Spine Chill's rework was backwards. If they thought it was unfair to stealth killers they shouldn't have reworked it to be only useful against them. They could have literally changed it from an info perk to a vault perk by only keeping and expanding on the vault effect it used to have and it would have been better tbh.
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Post edited by rororoxor on0
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You're right, it's not that problematic to have some perks counter some characters more than others, but its that SC and the like can create a guaranteed loss situation for stealth killers applying some of the things I mentioned.
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Questions for clarification:
In its current form Spine Chill lights up when s Killer is in range of a Survivor, a la Whispers, correct? I know the cooldown indicator moves based on Terror Radius but this is specific to stealth killers so I'm not worrying about that.
How do SWF teams use this beyond calling out killers' location?
Is it powerful despite, or because, it's less precise than before (since its previous form it lit up only when Killer looked on your direction)?
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Well, it is mainly for calling out killers location, which forces them to be regular m1 killers. Against high level teams you just cant win chases as an m1 killer with none/insignificant chase powers. You'd probably think that killers can still catch a person off guard who might not be with the spine chill user, but the perk user can claim a large amount of map space for the survivors by doing a gen near the middle while protecting the others who would do other gens behind them. Or they can stack on gens (which is not unviable btw) early on and get at least a couple done before you can down anyone, which in most cases results in a loss for the killer.
I'd say its more powerful than before; 36m is significant but still small enough to reliably indicate whether a killer is close.
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