One of my biggest pet peeves w the community
1: "Wow tunneling is really unfun, I wish the devs did something to make it less viable"
2: "Why should the killer play for your fun? The killer's objective is to kill and tunneling is the best strategy for killing. Stop being entitled and let ppl play how they want to."
Notice how nothing 2 said is incorrect really. The problem is, to put it simply, nobody asked. 1 is simply saying they wished the game would be changed in a way that discourages tunneling, not that killer players themselves aren't allowed to tunnel. I see stuff like this get said a lot and it's like some ppl really don't understand the difference between player responsibility and dev responsibility :/ you should be able to make suggestions without ppl going "it's part of the game" as if that means it should be.
Also don't get me wrong, tunneling isn't at all the only thing this applies to, that was just an example. Same thing could sometimes be said about comments like "do killers just want survivors to dance around gens?" when said in response to a suggestion to make sticking to gens less viable, or something like that
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That’s the inherent problem whenever you pit two different sides against each other. There will always be people who will die on hills no matter how short they are. A lot of people take it as personal attacks when you complain about their gameplay style.
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yep, p much...
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Until the tunneled survivor DC or suicide on hook. Suddenly they care about the other 3 survivors' fun...
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I agree that you cannot "train" people to not tunnel as if it's some moral choice.
If BHVR wanted to de-incentivize tunneling they would be looking for ways to do it. Tunneling happened when gen regression was meta and it'll continue happening the more people gain experience and the more they want to win. The problem might not even be tunneling itself. The problem is the difficulty and sometimes inability of solo survivors dealing with certain strategies (tunneling, camping, 3 gen) that require the whole team to be on the same page, all survivors knowing how to deal with each strategy accordingly, all playing for the same goal and most importantly being able to co-ordinate with each other.
Killers who claim they are tunneling for whatever reason other than wanting to win are just coping. There's nothing wrong with wanting to win. In every game where winning matters, the strongest strategies are usually the ones that are deemed safest, least interactive with the enemy and maybe simplest. Wanting to win in style (like say without add-ons or perks) is a different category on its own.
The problem is that the game is balanced around SWF, so those strategies have to stay around and solo survivor suffers in the process when they need to have the ability to be more self-reliant.
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cant relate idk i see it all the time
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Same lol tho sometimes I'll just fr be on autopilot playing killer and might tunnel w/o even realizing it, that's what "your fun isn't my responsibility" means to me but ik some dudes out there be playing specifically for other ppls lack of fun
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I see plenty of ppl that just want the game to be easy for them I'm ngl, def not all of them tho but quite a bit. Either that or just ppl disagreeing w me w non existent reasoning that basically just boils down to insults or whatever
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Listen, never use that image, ever again.
Use this
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rin :)
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cuz idk what to tell u rly we just have different perspectives on the community lol, ig i could say like i try not to be biased but some things in particular i j cannot understand how they can be defended
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like i try to see different perspectives but i wont lie its already kinda hard and it doesnt help when ppl just say totally untrue or just rude things, but when theyre not it can be p cool and i could have my mind changed maybe to some degree
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like when someone tells me "free health state bad free distance good" (despite them being the exact same thing given the context) or "hit and run is hard" like idk how im meant to take them seriously but i do honestly try :)
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It's much more common for people to blame killer players instead of the game design though so people are probably just use to responding the same way.
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Why should killers purposely make bad game decisions, so the games are more fun for survivors? What bad game decisions will survivors pledge on doing, so the games are more fun for killers?
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you're joking right?
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I'm serious. Why should killers purposely make bad game decisions, so that games are more fun for survivors..... if survivors aren't expected to make any bad game decisions so games are more fun for killers?
Where is the list of things survivors should avoid doing, because they are unfun for killers?
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You're proving the entire point I was making w the post XD
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I wouldnt say the game is balanced around swf, its just not really balanced around solo either. More so somewhere inbetween.
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Or some people just don't agree with you. It's ok nothing to get all bent over (Don't say your not). Tunneling and camping need to go for game health totally agree but it's a dev problem and personally don't think it's high on their list unfortunately. I'm an old school breed who has a hard time even camping in end game but I still find solo the more chill and relaxed role. Not saying what so ever killer is harder I just find it to be a chore I am no longer interested in. I'm getting off topic so...
I support the removal of tunneling and camping but it will require buffs to lower tier killers. People can tell me till they are blue in the face they can win all day without tunneling/camping/slugging but truth is that's just piss poor matchmaking sorry to tell ya.
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Ofc but that doesnt mean ppl that want the game to be easy for them dont exist lol
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Killers camp and tunnel because survivors tunnel out generators. Removing gen defense perks made it worse because killers lost a huge amount of control in the game.
You cant ask for killers to not tunnel until survivors cant either.
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the point of this post rlyyyy wasnt to discuss tunneling, just used it as an example for what i was tryna say, but wtv go ahead ig
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but ill say im not asking for killers not to tunnel lol im asking for the devs to make killers not want to tunnel this was the whole point of the damn post!!!!
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"Survivors tunnel out generators"? What the heck do you want survivors to do instead? Loiter in the killer basement and admire the hooks?!?
Until something drastic changes somewhere, the survivors' objective is to do gens. Meanwhile, killer has to kill survivors. I"d say the reason why survivors make a fuss of this immediacy to do the objectives is that getting hard tunnelled make for a really lousy round as a survivor, especially if they didn't do anything to deserve being taken out first.
But sadly, this is how the core of the game design goes. Being fair as a killer will get you friends, but not wins. Being a harsh killer also means the survivors shouldn't go easy on you.
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Agreed.
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Can you please stop using the term "tunnelling generators" because it's utterly ridiculous and entitled. What do you want the survivors to do instead, loiter in the killer basement and admire the hooks?
Until something changes with the game design, the goal of the survivors is to repair gens. Likewise, the goal of the killer is to kill survivors. The only reason why survivors would make a deal out of this is that being on the receiving end of tunnelling feels bad, especially when you did nothing to deserve it.
But sadly, so is the ruthless nature of the game. Nice killers may find friends, but they won't find wins. Meanwhile, if you take the role of the ruthless killer, don't expect survivors to play nice either.
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They don't like that Survivors do gens as opposed to....doing nothing, I suppose.
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Yikes.
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The old plan was : buff solo to be closer to SWF. They massively did that with the hud changes.
Step two was buff killers - but we likely wont get that part of the plan.
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when someone used the term “tunneling gens” you just dont take them seriously. I know where that term comes from and yeah its a complete joke
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It's meant to be a joke. Tunneling gens and people out of the game are equally weighted actions that make you play more efficiently.
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This a joke?
It's going to take a lot more change than just a simple hud to buff solo queue to be any thing other than the killer sided massacre it is now.
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Step two was partially done in 6.1.0 tbf, emphasis on partially
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You didn’t mean that as a joke. You were dead ass serious. If any part of that comment was a joke, it was your conviction. Misplaced, hon.
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He claims that if regression meta was still a thing then killers wouldn't tunnel. But he forgets that we were around during it and there was still a lot of tunneling and camping still.
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Caring about the other sides fun =/= Throwing games or making bad decisions
To me, if you care about your opponents fun you'll not go out of your way to do things that are clearly intended to BM or cause tilt like tbagging/clicking/w&sing/hitting on hook and so on.
As survivor, if you win, great - take your escape and go next. Don't drag it out by sitting in the gate tbagging/clicking and so on
As Killer If you win, great - take your win and go next. Don't drag it out by bleeding survivors out for 3 minutes while repeatedly pressing the w and s keys.
And of course don't make an ass of yourself in the endgame chat. I find a bit of banter is fine, it's not like taking the game too seriously is good for you anyway.
I'm sure a lot of survivor and killer players alike wouldn't care as much about losing if there wasn't this cringe "gloating" that goes on from their opponents. Sometimes it is really satisfying to get that really annoying survivor or make a killer trying to focus you out mad but just leave it in the game.
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The argument is always “if survivors didn’t have/do X, killers wouldn’t camp or tunnel.” And every time BHVR gives in eliminating X, killers still, somehow, miraculously, camp and tunnel. 🤷♀️
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Majority of the people who complain about that aren't tunneling, at least I don't. When I play survivor, the people that do that haven't even had the chance to get tunneled yet.
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This should be its own thread, tbh. This deserves to be broadcast far and wide. I never hit on hook, I never bleed out survivors just to waste their time, I never facecamp on the first hook (Only after the exit gates are powered, when there's not much else to do, really), I never tunnel if it isn't the correct play, I never dance on a downed Survivor, I never camp the hatch, but it's never enough.
It's one thing to play optimally in a way that the other side doesn't like. It's another to go out of your way to upset them in a way that offers no tangible gameplay benefits.
And every time I consider playing mercifully, I also consider that the Survivors most likely won't thank me for it. My only reward will be teabags at the exit gates, or an agonizing wait in the EGC. On Killer, running into toxic Survivors is the rule and not the exception. Survivors seem utterly incapable of just taking their W and moving on.
It's one reason I find it much more relaxing to play Survivor; a Killer who does genuinely toxic things in-game is a rarity in my matches. The NOED facecamper or the hook-hitter (Often both at the same time) appears in maybe 1 out of every 20 games. It stands out in my mind when it happens.
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My condensed take on the issue is that it's not hard to simply match the energy brought by those you are matched with.
Sometimes that might mean taking your foot off the gas a bit when matched with players obviously below your skill level, or goofing a bit.
Other times that might mean going into sweat mode when the players you are matched with are really good/sweaty or toxic.
I just don't understand people who bring the same plan and energy into ever match and refuse to adjust at all. Is it really fun to curbstomp some poor group of potatoes/casuals by ruthlessly tunneling? Or going full bore gen rush on an inexperienced killer?
Does that prove anything? At that point, it's not about winning, it's not about "not putting their fun first", it's just making them feel bad because you can.
You can adjust down to the play of your opponent and still win. Not throwing, not putting their experience above your own. Heck, it's nice to take a match "off" here and there and relax. Just play each match as it comes.
What it tells me when people only play one way is that they don't have much game sense, and/or are just an a-hole.
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I think whichever side decides to bring the sweaty stuff, sets the pace for the game. If killer brings sweaty stuff then survivors are not prepared for it and cannot adjust as they might just be strangers with each other. Same thing with a full SWF wanting to play optimally.
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Unfortunately trying to explain things to people in the DBD community is like banging your head against the wall sometimes.
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I know one streamer that uses that term and they clearly arent joking and neither were you
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Yea it is on BHVR to make those changes
TO incentivse hooking each Survivor 1 time 3 times over without repeating
To decentivse Tunneling maybe by IDK having "Tunnel Vision" be a base game mechanic
Tunnel Vision:
Making the loud noise notification quieter when in chase with a Survivor recently unhooked (or something like that)
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The problem is that "Wow tunneling is really unfun, I wish the devs did something to make it less viable" still boils down to "Punish Killers for doing what is simply the "right" course of action", so you obviously won't get many Killer mains agreeing with you.
A better point would be "Wow tunneling is really unfun, I wish the devs did something to make not doing it more viable"
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I certainly recognize there are different reactions from different people, but for me it usually comes back to kill rates.
The devs said when they posted the most recent stats last fall that they were happy with a 61% average kill rate, and solo q and SWF were only separated by about 10%.
So as a solo survivor, the devs have told me that I should lose the majority of my games by design, and I shouldn't expect more than about a 35% escape rate.
Ok then, my response to that is: that kinda sucks, but can you at least make sure the game is fun while I'm losing? I don't really care about winning as long as the matches are generally fun to play out.
And especially from a solo q perspective, 'fun to play' means getting some good chases/ moments from both sides, getting decent BP, and yeah, at that point I care less about losing that match. Hopefully that's fun for the killer too.
The answer I feel I get from most killers is that this is completely unreasonable and I should go ######### myself.
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If they punished killers for tunneling it wouldn't be the right course of action tho would it?
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Oh, for sure. Some games the survs are so bad being nice is painful. Those games I won't let linger too long, but I'll at least try and distribute the hooks evenly (and maybe give them a chase longer than 10 seocnds) as I wipe them out.
Or if one of their team DCs at five gens and you know it's gonna be a while before the remaining three can complete them. Most times I just let them, but it's annoying. Especially if they're too green to even to recognize that you're not trying to kill them and they still immerse.
But I'm not advocating for people to make their own experience awful by turning what could be a 5 minute rinsing into a 15 minute babysitting session, just saying you can still win most of your games without entering each match with your ass on fire. Generally, you'll have a good idea in the first 90 seconds of a match if your opponents are really good or not.
If they're really bad (or just not great), you can still play to win, but some people should just consider taking the scenic route rather than the expressway to victory.
Just that it doesn't hurt to use a little situational discretion.
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