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So with the anti-camp killers will not be able to punish gen-before-friends anymore?
Hopefully not but hey ...
Comments
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It seems likely that you'll be able to proxy camp just fine.
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Once again we see the problem : it's ok for the survivors to tunnel their objective but the killer is not afforded the same protection mechanics to prevent losing the gens too fast.
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If true, I guess it's fine and only the pure campers (e.g. Bubba carricatures) will be affected, which is good.
Does that mean no more Basement Bubba? xD
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They said this system will work for limited range. So i guess they wanna give safe area for hook saves (anti-face camp). But this won't eliminate the proxy camp which is fine.
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It depends on how big the radius is.
Many basements are in chokepoints that are easy to defend from a distance, so it may not matter.
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We need to know the range, timer length, build up rate, and rate decrease based on nearby survivors and what that range is too.
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“TUnnElinG GeNS”💀💀
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This couldn't be more wrong.
In every scenario in which you would be incentivised to camp, when camping would be a legit strategy, this mechanic doesn't work. It slows down when other survivors are nearby, and it's disabled entirely once the exits are powered.
There is simply no reason to facecamp the first survivor you hook without any other survivors nearby, unless you're intentionally trying to ruin the game for everyone.
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You missed the entire point of what I said just now.
Survivors have multiple layers of tunneling protection that include:
- 10 seconds of borrowed time off the hook
- Free unhook yourself if the killer is camping.
- Extremely powerful perks like Reassurance and Kinship.
Where's the killer protection to prevent the gens from being done in 3-4 minutes? That's not a thing because there is nearly zero consideration for killer when we talk about core game mechanics.
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Do you know how you can counter this?
Dont camp and go for other Survivors. There are 3 more in the Trial.
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While it is true that killers have no defense against certain survivor perks, seems to me that 'punish gen before friends' is a poor excuse to facecamp or simply camp hook. Before punishing there has to be an action to be punished, and if you take the time after hooking a survivor to patrol the gens you'll most likely make survivors flee so they won't do gens. Usually they only do gens before friends when there is a camping killer. In fact, at least in my games, most of the times, survivors hurry to unhook the hooked survivor, even if I can clearly see them. Obviously, being 4 survivors not all of them will go, so there will always be one or two doing gens, which is what they should do. Gens being repaired way too fast right now is another matter entirely, one I hope will be looked into sooner rather than later.
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The survivor objective can be finished in 3-4 minutes by expert players. Meanwhile the killer objective takes 6-8 minutes (barring major survivor malfunctions).
When we look at 9000+ hour streamers playing weak killers you hear things like : I can't take that chase. That's a massive design problem with DBD in that " I can't take that chase" is a phrase that should be deleted from the game before we try to remove face camping.
Most of the maps in DBD are unfair to most of the killers. Otz made a video where has Nurse/Blight with best addons facing the best survivor teams in the world. His conclusion was : DBD is fine when both sides bring the very best.
Where was the best Doctor/Trapper/Michael Myers playing against Hens squad? We all know why it didn't happen : Hens and crew would have flattened the ineffective killers.
There is nobody in the world who could hope to beat Hens crew reliably using a pathetic killer on the extremely unfair maps we have in DBD right now.
-"go for other Survivors. There are 3 more in the Trial."
People said the same thing when one player was abusing infinite windows in 2016. It's as silly to say now as it was back then. Every killer needs to be viable at every loop in the game or certain killers need to be immune from facing those loops.
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“The survivor objective can be finished in 3-4 minutes by expert players.”so im guessing your a expert killer player since you only play vs expert survivors. Can we see the gameplay then?
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Gens before friends is how you counter facecamping right now, though? So that's kind of backwards.
Gens before friends also means that while you have someone on the hook, you can go chase + down someone else and it's entirely possible the first survivor is still on the hook, so it's again the inverse of the camping situation.
The only thing you can punish by camping is actually an excess of altruism, where survivors linger and loop around their hooked teammate and don't go back to their generators.
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"The survivor objective can be finished in 3-4 minutes by expert players."
Yeah, I stopped reading there. You dont encounter those players in public games. Otherwise, can we also bring tournament Killers as example and nerf every Killer who plays in public games?
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You don't understand seal SWFs are are actually more common than you believe. Expert killers have quit over the abuse they keep receiving from survivors and BHVR. Let's not forget killer should be the power role, survivors escaping should be the exception and not the rule and it feel special, have you seen no horror movies?
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Remove me from the euqation so you can't say I'm bad and I am the problem.
Go watch Otz and Truetalent. Both of them will occasionally get the "gen rush" and the game ends with 1-3 hook states. Yes it is true the majority of players cannot repair gens efficiently and be strong loopers. But what's a killer supposed to do when that happens?
When you see 9000+ hour players suffering with "real" builds you know something is wrong with the game design. I'm guessing you're not going to tell them to "get good" when they play the game for a living as a professional.
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The problem is the weaker the killer the only viable way to win is to play like an #########. Hard tunnel shouldn't be the only way to win vs stronger survivors. It just doesn't make any sense for a weak killer to be on a survivor map with survivors bringing op builds ad ons etc. Until there is actual balance killers will always have to hard tunnel to win. Idk why there hasn't been any attempt to try to balance maps and add ons individually. This just leads to the weakest killers being weaker and the strongest killers being stronger. Once they have a balance they can actually address tunneling and deter it.
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-"Gens before friends is how you counter facecamping right now, though?"
You have the situation backwards. If two gens pop while I have someone hooked then the survivor on the hook needs to pay for those gens. What happens if the killer trades 5 gens for 5 hook states? Unless those hook states are on only two players then they have likely lost the game. Things are of course different when you play Nurse and Blight but the are the exception that works. I will also remind you that the majority of the survivor player base wants to see those killers obliterated.
Gen rushing with the "gens before friends" mind set pushes the killer to camp. Why? They can't defend the generators but they can defend the player on the hook. If you leave the gens and give the killer a viable/vulnerable target then he might leave the hook to chase you.
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Okay, maybe I don't quite understand what people mean by 'gens before friends', then, because the way you're explaining it doesn't really... make sense?
If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing? How would they even be able to facecamp in that scenario if they aren't already? They'd be across the map going for a chase while people stick on gens and not prioritise saving their 'friends'/teammates, right? That's what gens before friends means, it means not going for a save or being altruistic and sticking on your objective. Facecamping doesn't punish that because they're already not going for that save.
On the flipside, if the killer is already facecamping, then going for that save becomes a bad idea (unless it's an M1 killer with no ability to stop the save, but generally it's safe to assume a facecamping killer is one who can do something with their power to make saves more threatening). Therefore, 'gens before friends' becomes the way you counter that, you stick on generators and don't bother going for a save until the end, if at all.
The changes proposed don't interact with gens before friends in any way whatsoever. It's still the right call when killers facecamp because if you go over there the timer slows, and if you as the killer realise the survivors aren't being altruistic then a tactic that specifically and only punishes altruism won't function.
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-"If two gens pop while someone's on the hook, what is the killer doing?"
Maybe they are chasing the person that came for the rescue that they saw in the middle of the map. You need to remember that there is zero pressure on survivors that are not in a chase when the killer is busy.
Once upon a time survivors died much faster on the hook. I think it was 30 seconds faster per phase- if I am wrong someone will be sure to correct me. The theory when Horvath put that in the game was that : survivors would rush to the hook sooner to get the unhook. But that's not what happened. Survivors got +30 seconds to finish generators and then only left when they had exactly enough time to get the unhook.
Let's assume the worst and the killer is playing scummy. Two gens pop and in 15 seconds the survivor will hit the next hook state. What do you do as killer? You make them go for an unhook and force a grab. If you get the grab you drop that player immediately so you can grab the other player.
Most of the time when you play against vicious hook campers the solution to stop the camping is to unhook that player almost immediately. Almost always the killer needs to kick a generator, pallet, reset a trap or reload from a locker right after a hook event. If you're across the map chugging away on a generator then you missed the moment when the killer was occupied.
Survivors don't think like that because they don't play killer. They don't know that nearly 95% of the time I hook someone I always have some little errand to do. The other thing on survivors minds is that this is not "efficient" play; they should only unhook a player right before the next phase to optimize the team efficiency.
At that point it becomes killer efficiency vs survivor efficiency. If you're playing survivor efficiently against me then I will have to mirror that stance against you. I will camp and tunnel one player out of the game.
In as few words as possible :
It's a show of good faith to the killer that as a survivor you rescue another survivor quickly. If you're not rescuing quickly and you try to play efficiently then I will do the same and force the second stage. Then I will immediately tunnel the person off the hook because that is efficient play.
I want to leave the hook and be able to go chase other people. Often times people hide or run to areas that lead to a nearly impossible chase. If that's the way you want to play it then I will pressure you by forcing a hook state. You can preemptively counter me by rescuing your friend early.
If you don't do that then you are contributing to the "camp and tunnel" meta.
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So what you are saying is that whenever a survivor is hooked, other survivor should go to the killer, tap them in the shoulder and tell them, 'hey, I'm vulnerable, hit me'? Nah, I just don't see it.
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A lot of what you're describing here is just... normal DBD? You get a hook, you intercept someone nearby and chase them away from the hook, someone who is either on a nearly empty generator or a nearly finished generator peels off to save, and if the gen is nearly finished then they finish it first. Like, if they have time to finish their generator before saving (and they're not waiting until the last second, which, again, camping doesn't punish that, going and generating more pressure than they can undo punishes that), the bulk of that generator repair happened while their teammate was being chased, not while they're on hook.
I feel like I've got to be missing something because nothing you've described interacts with the new system in any way. If you leave the hook and come back to punish late saves... there are two outcomes. Either there's another survivor there and you're intercepting them, which means this new bar fills slower because another survivor is around, or there isn't and you being at the hook isn't generating any pressure because nobody was coming for that save anyway. If it's the second scenario, staying at the hook is just giving survivors free generator progress, regardless of this new anti-camp system. Hell, staying at the hook makes survivors less likely to come and save, which means they're more likely to stick on the generator.
If you want to be able to leave the hook and go chase, go do that, it's already the better idea. If survivors are sticking on generators and not going for a save that means you're putting them in a bad spot by generating more pressure while someone is still on the hook, that's cutting down on how many survivors are able to work on generators at that time. You're acting like any kind of camping that this system would punish is like, ever a good idea, let alone the best one. If other survivors are around this new system is meant to account for that, and if no other survivors are around you shouldn't be there to begin with, you aren't achieving anything by sticking near that hook.
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Don't be silly. Let's consider two options. But first a quick preface:
A survivor can flop on your shoulder 9 times with just a moment of time over that ninth wiggle before they escape. I like long carries because I tend to use STBFL and because it allows me to punish unhooks better in corners/basements/etc.
As a whole the average time for me to hook someone is 15 seconds. What do you do during that 15 seconds? You can be "afk" on a generator as one streamer likes to say or you can run during those 15 seconds to be within my terror radius. The hooking animation itself is long enough that you can stop behind some wall within like 32m and hide with no scratch marks around.
I won't know you are close and if I go around to check the nearest 3 gen this will take about 15 seconds. If you're clever you will unhook during this time. If you're afk on a gen across the map well then you missed the opportunity. Here's an idea that might blow your mind : two people could simultaneously position for the save /gasp.
If you're busy blasting a generator and no one comes after 20+ seconds after I checked my generators then I need to get closer to the hook to prevent you from making a last second save.
But survivors don't want to play in this way because they care more about escaping. Who cares if Meg loses a hook state if they trade three gens for it?
The game is not built for how people currently play the game. Everyone uses every second until they need to run to the hook to just blast generators. They become really upset when a killer body blocks instead of punching someone coming for the rescue.
"you owe me the ability to unhook the survivor right before they hit the next stage".
This idea is quite laughable really.
Unhook quickly and I won't feel the need to camp.
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Tru3 just whines 24/7 so no. And yeah otz gets tough games from time to time but he does these weird builds where he will use something like unrelenting and predator. Either way they win most of their games.
And also if you play sweaty to win then yeah you should eventually go up vs people that are better than you to give you a challenge. The problem comes from when you go on a losing streak and the match making isnt doing you any favors
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-"Either way they win most of their games."
Most people don't have 10,000 hours of experience to falll back on. But both get absolutely floored from time to time and to date I have never seen either post a video titled: look at me get my butt kicked during yesterday's stream.
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So maybe stop complaining, don't lobby dodge, and play meaner.
I'm stomping P100s and Twitch streamers with hundreds to thousands on followers regularly.
When you see a team in a lobby that you just know are going to be one of those teams, switch to a build you have saved for the occasion and play them, anyway. It's the only way you'll get better.
You can't win every single game, no matter how good you are. I do wish that were true.
Also, I've personally found that while, obviously, builds that decimate solo queue aren't effective on "SEAL survivors", the reverse is also true. I keep multiple builds handy and do my best to guess at the skill level and strategy of the group I'm playing against.
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It was sarcasm my man. Just repeating what Ir= read here from time to time.
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Downing and hooking survivors is the best way to prevent gens from being done in 3-4 minutes.
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I have seen both if them post loses. Otz has done that a done. When tru3 does it its just so he can get back to his “survivor op and killer oppressed narrative”
look what they can do is make the tutorials better to help you out. But anyone that has played this game knows that eventually you learn stuff especially if you play both sides
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The following are not tunneling protection but more of bandages that already a no no on a deep cut
Reassurance= you got get really close to use it and this can even have you to force yourself to take a hit
bt=95% of killers count to 10 and still tunnel example I got 0 hooks am healthy killer is face camping survivor whos on hook 1 or 2 and I decide to take the exchange, they will literally slug me and chase that person I decide to take the exchange for.
Kinship= I dont even think I ever seen anyone even touch this perk but good attempt
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The only loss I've ever seen true post is when he played against Oracle. The only loss I've ever seen Otz post is how he lost a streak.
-"Kinship= I dont even think I ever seen anyone even touch this perk but good attempt"
Better teams can use it very well but not randoms. It's really strong as well for tournament play.
"-The following are not tunneling protection but more of bandages that already a no no on a deep cut"
Meanwhile Killers have literally nothing. We have statements from the devs like : so what if you lose 3 gens in the first chase? It's a pretty clear example of favoritism.
Want killer to stop camping? Give them a buff from core mechanics that makes sense: if a killer is more than 16m from a hook the generator with the most progress begins regressing and cannot be stopped until the survivor on the hook is rescued (as long as the killer does not get closer to the hook).
Killers didn't even get base kit deadlock. And the door mechanic remains wimpy as ever.
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That's a great idea in theory. And what happens when you're playing an older killer that doesn't have anti loop and the only chase options you have are ~2 minute minimum due to survivor favored maps.
Oh right that wouldn't work too well would it?
Again the problem is that some of the killers are mechanically outdated. Some of the maps are just extremely gross to play as any killer besides Nurse or Blight. Put the two together and you should lose every single time. Often you don't because survivors usually make at least one big mistake unless they are on voice coms.
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No more face camp bubba it’s seems :(
I hate tunnelling and proxy camping as much as the next (unless it’s late game/called for etc) but nothing makes me laugh more than a Bubba hitting me on hook, nodding and just doing all the ‘toxic’ stuff haha
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Praise the lord , I probably drink for once in my life, I cant stand that killer period, I was really hoping he was going to be taken out of the game, unlike myers/ghosty/oni/billy who has to work for their instant down and cant have it forever(unless its perm add on myers) bubba gets 0 respect from me and is brain dead, common thing=use saw if healthy, if injured already=m1 (usually when taken off hook) sure the other instant down killers may do it but it feels more fair on them compared to bubba
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Removing more and more strategies for killers is going make this game go stale faster and faster. Instead of punishing killers for camping, they should have incentivized them not to camp. But no, they went with a bad, boring, unimaginative solution that’s just going to mean fewer options for killers.
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That's not it. You counter camping by doing gens and ignoring the camped hook.
Pushing gens without going to the hook until the last second is "gens before friends", it doesn't counter face camping.
Going back to the hook to force a hook state is how you punish that tactic. If, like some suggested, proxy camping would still work, then there is no issue as punishing would still work too.
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all they had to do it prevent killers from camping is using their powers is within x meter of a hooked survivor their powers automatically get turned off and the powers can't activate withing the hooked range so if bubba wants to proxy camp he can but only m1 camp not chainsaw camp and same goes for hag she would have to pre put her traps out before the hooked survivor went up so people have a chance to sabo from her because she will just become the new main of camping with traps and that not fun at all hang in general ant fun because her kit insist she camp
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My only problem with the anti face camp measures it that it doesnt really effect the best campers. Sure they can be a decent amount away which i presume the max range is 16 meters but then bubba, billy, blight, nurse and huntress still guarantee trades if not no trade at all while making m1s even weaker.
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Facecamper literally telling people 'nah, you counter me by walking straight into my trap and going for the rescue'.
Post edited by BoxGhost on3 -
I never really understood why people camp and especially tunnel. If you tunnel a decent runner you will obviously get that kill in the end but at what cost usually the other 3 survivors will escape and at best you might get 2k but most people I see play this way devote so much to that one survivor and ignore the rest of the team which in the end usually ends up costing them the game.
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Well, generators don't have emotions nor do they get points by being unrepaired, yet human beings do have feelings and getting camped means they started a match to end it in 2-3 minutes with 2-3k points, which is the main difference.
And of course, the killer would never understand this because they will always play a full match and they will always get at least 12k. They cannot be held hostage by survivors and prevented to play, which the same can't be said about survivors.
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While you do have a point, I'll go back to the same. The solution isn't camping. Gen repair spped needs to be looked into and balanced.
Consider this: if my main objective as a survivor is to repair gens and avoid hooks, I'll try to go for gens farthest from the killer, If I'm doing a gen and a survivor is hooked, you can't expect me to immediately drop repairing and go for the hook. I'll usually wait a few seconds and see if other survivor who is not doind anything will go for the save before going there. If I'm close to the survivor, I'll either try to get close so I can unhook them safely if I think I can get there without the killer noticing me or just wait until the killer goes to go for the save. Going for the save immediately after being hooked is a waste of time and pretty much a death warrant.
Meanwhile, as a killer, if I hook a survivor, I expect survivors to not come to the rescue immediately, so if I am lucky, I'll have a survivor hooked, another one going for the save, and I'll be chasing another one soon. So that's three survivors not repairing and if I'm lucky I'll soon hook the one I'm chasing and snowball. Granted, some times this doesn't go as planned. But that doesn't seem as an excuse to camp, to me.
To be honest, as a survivor I rarely escape and as killer (depending on the killer of course) I do have games in which the 4 of them escape with 3-6 hooks and no one dead. And while it can be frustrating, I know that next game (or the one after the next) will most likely end with 4 dead survivors and I'll have enjoyed a balanced, interesting game with no need to camp.
Proxy camping, sure, I do use it sometimes. Not really because I think 'oh, I'm going to camp that survivor' but because I have a feeling someone is getting closer. Most of the times I am right, and some other times I waste a lot of time going around searching for someone who isn't there.
So in the end, yeah, you can camp if you want, but I think it's simply because you want to, no need to use the 'punishing gens before friends' excuse. My opinion, however. It's clear that we disagree on this and it's fine. What many of us seem to agree on is that gen repair speeds are ridiculous as of now.
Also, tunnelling is another matter. I've seen many killers go out of their way to tunnel a survivor. I usually do this (and it's not like I consider tunnelling, but survivors usually see it that way) when I'm going to hit the unhooking survivor and the unhooked one takes a protection hit because they are trying to bodyblock me. Ok, so if you went out of your way to waste your endurance like that, then I guess you are offering yourself as a sacrifice to me. And that's fine too. I do that sometimes as a survivor, but I know that in doing so, the killer will most likely come for me and then it only depends on my skill to loop him. Most of the times it ends up with me being dead soon, but I don't really blame the killer.
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And you've missed the part where this is an asymmetrical game.
Not every aspect of survivor mechanics is going to have a killer equivalent and vice versa.
Survivors main objective is an inanimate object, the killers main objective is other players, in these contexts 'tunnelling' have very different ramifications.
Survivors have multiple protections against tunnelling, because they have only up to three hooks in them before they're eliminated. Meanwhile the killer's game isn't over after just one generator is completed.
Survivors have protection against tunnelling because survivors aren't able to interrupt and pressure multiple other players at once with basekit powers such as "inflicting injury" and removing a third of the other players health in an instant.
You can give survivors a hundred different buffs and QoL features, but unless those have a tangible effect on game outcomes by way of reduced kill rates, then they will not warrant buffing killers. And vice versa.
The target kill rate range is around 55-60% (this is actually fair, it's not a straight 50/50 because of the fact that there aren't four players per game, but five, but anyway) and when the rate drops, killers get buffed. Like last year, when kill rates were below 55% and killers got a ton of slow level buffs to help them win chases, and kill rates shot back up to 60%.
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Fair enough. Poe's law.
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If the Survivors do play like that then you need to find them not stay near the hook in the first place
This new mechanic was meant for that... stop camping and do something about the others Survivors ignoring the Survivor on the hook
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-"Well, generators don't have emotions nor do they get points by being unrepaired, yet human beings do have feelings and getting camped means they started a match to end it in 2-3 minutes with 2-3k points, which is the main difference."
You know what your post reminds me of?
This is the "duck rabbit". Put it in front of a child and they will see either the duck or the rabbit (but not both) depending on how the image is turned. They assume their mother sees the same image because that's what they see. This is a development test for children.
You've decided DBD to be only to be one way.
What player has the objective to defend the generators? That would be the killer. That's a player too and they have feelings. It's not a fun feeling when you can't go for any meaningful chases due to map design. It's not fun to the killer when you can't contest generators.
I will remind you that there is no possible scenario where the killer loses if the generators are not all completed.
Killers gain emblems by preventing the repair of generators. More emblems at the end of the month means more bonus blood points. So in fact your statement is factually incorrect (nor do they get points by being unrepaired).
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Most killers "camp" to force a hook state. They don't sit there staring at the survivor.
At the same time survivors display entitlement when you don't let them unhook when they have been cranking gens until the last possible second.
-"Going for the save immediately after being hooked is a waste of time and pretty much a death warrant."
Let me change a few words to illustrate a point.
Going for a different survivor after a hook is a waste of time and pretty much an automatic loss.
If you as a survivor force efficient play then you are NOT allowed to complain if the killer mirrors your stance and plays "unfun".
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Again, I can see your point, but always from my experience, I don't need to camp to get some if not many kills. I guess my MMR isn't high enough for me needing to employ those tactics, it could be. But since I don't enjoy them either, I rarely do that. Anyways, I suppose we should agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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