Do the devs know what “face camping” is?
They said the changes were to counter face camping but being up to 16 meters activates the timer. That is way beyond face camping.
EDIT: Visualization shows they do not know what "face camping" is.
Comments
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The terms 'camping' and 'face camping' have been used interchangeably for years
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Well, it has to be a little broader than the typical facecamping range, otherwise killers are just gonna stand on the very edge outside of it.
Besides, I'm sure the specific number is one of the things they're gonna be getting feedback for when it hits a PTB.
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16 meters isn't facecamp but that radius is small enough for not being considered proxy camp either, that's the same range of Kindred aura, 16 metres is enough to get close to secure a down of an approaching rescuer. I think 16 meters is a good radius.
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Oh no you'll have to be 17m away instead of 16m away oh nooo get over it 16m is a pretty fair range and if changed should only get bigger
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16 meters isn't that far. It's the same as Kindred. I see plenty of killers hanging out at the edge of my Kindred who have no problem making it back to the hook to either tunnel me out or at the very least trade hooks with the rescuer. Instadown killers have no problem downing the rescuer before they even reach the hook. If you're hanging back enough to not be shown on Kindred you'll probably get more hooks/kills because survivors will be more willing to attempt a save instead of sticking to a gen.
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Not really. Camping also includes proxy camping.
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Unless there's another survivor around you shouldn't be within 16 metres of the hook anyway; you should be putting other survivors on hooks.
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As I was convinced by this announcement, BhVR is probably the same as the people who make the Survivor's rule book.
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Really seems they are trying to force Killers to play this way.
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That is not accurate. Face camping has always been the classic bubba staring at you while you are on the hook and holding the chainsaw ready to go. Obviously this is used in other cases,but i'm saying this is the textbook example.
The other form would be "proxy camping" where you are camping, but from a distance in a way to cut survivors off. For example, maybe you hook 1 survivor on 1 corner of the map, and you know all the other survivors are on the other side. So you might camp in the middle and cut off anyone who is going for the save before they can.
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What is the line between Face Camping and Proxy Camping?
16m might seem like a long way, but it definitely feels too close to consider Proxy camping. It's close enough to be able to reach the unhooker before they make it to the hook, and it's within Kindred range.
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Basekit BT, basekit UB still possible and soon basekit Deliverance on top?
And don't forget about Reassurance. What are they thinking?!
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16 meters is 32 meters of dead zone on double-deck maps, they should reduce this radius to at least 10, and preferably 8 meters
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It's a limit they've set up as a base until after feedback, so it's possible that the numbers will change.
On the stream, they said that the meter would speed up the closer the killer comes to the hooked survivor, so it is meant to severely punish true face-camping, rather than proxy camping.
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It doesn't matter if it's within Kindred range. Face camping is when the killer is right up next to the survivors face, or when the killer's face is right up next to the hooked survivor, depending on whose "face" you want "face camping" to be based off of.
And before this announcement, I've never seen anyone ever use Kindred's range as the facecamping range. And I've never seen BHVR mention that kindred's range was made on purpose to represent facecamping's range. And when BHVR did talk about facecamping, they referred to things like "facecamping with the chainsaw revved", and when it's not a basement hook, that requires the killer to be extremely close to the hooked survivor.. way closer than 16 yards.
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Lol killers already try to figure out how to exploit anti-camp mechanics. I hope BHVR won't backpedal on this one after ptb "feedback" and it won't be Reassurance 2.0
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My question still stands, what is the threshold between face camping and proxy camping? Is there a vague middle range that's just camping but not either face/proxy? And if so, then this is a mechanic to address that form of camping as well.
Getting hung up on "it's not akshully face camping in the technical sense" is just missing the point, camping is camping, whether you're staring the hooked survivor down or you a couple of meters away, it serves the same purpose.
Technically speaking, facecamping hasn't been an issue since they solved the problem of the killer literally bodyblocking hooks, camping is just camping now, the face part is immaterial.
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The real question is: if the hook is on the first floor, and I'm at ground floor, how this works? Because if this activates also when I'm under the hooked survivor, this mechanic is a free deliverance and isn't balanced anymore. Also, I didn't understand a thing: ok, the hooked survivor can free himself, but do they know that if the killer is face camping he can catch the survivor even if he unhook himself right? Or did I miss something? Because if this works the same as deliverance, when you unhook yourself with deliverance you're instantly vulnerable and, even if you go in deep wound state, the killer can catch you up. So, maybe I missed something on this mechanic, but for now is more an L than a W in my opinion
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Even if the latter scenario happens, it's still a net bonus for the survivors.
Currently: Killer camps you through a hook stages, you go to second stage, meaning you've lost two hook stages, the killer continues to camp, you die, all three hook stages gone in one hook, and it takes 120 seconds.
Soon: Killer camps you for your first hook stage, you gain the ability to unhook yourself, you wait until the last possible moment before you go to second stage, you get off, you run away, killer hits you at some point and triggers Endurance, you carry on running and lead the killer on a chase of anywhere from 20 seconds to a minute or two depending on what's around. Then you get hooked again, repeat for a second time and initiate another chase.
It guarantees that the camped survivors at the very least gets:
- Three hook events, not just stages, three individual hooks.
- Three or more chases, the first down and hook isn't the end of the game, you can guarantee to run the killer another two times.
- More than 120 seconds of occupying the killer, you can now take more than your hook timer away from the killer, forcing them you chase you for longer, which awards your team mates more time to do gens and gives you an active role in doing so, rather than a purely passive "hanging in there" while your timer runs out. Camping and tunnelling out one survivor could now take upwards of 180 seconds or more, instead of 120.
It's going to make DS a lot more valuable, because getting camped doesn't mean it's wasted, being guaranteed an unhook means guaranteeing a DS and wasting more of the killers time.
Post edited by Seraphor on5 -
Well I didn't saw this "opportunity". My bad
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Facecamping is when the killer's face is directly next to the survivor, or when the killer is next to the survivors face, depending on whose "face" you want "face camping" to be based off of. Proxy camping is anything farther away than that. For most killers, it's close enough for the killer to attempt a hook grab. For Bubba, it's close enough to wreck everyone with his chainsaw.
This isn't some deep philosophical problem. Facecamping would be 0-4 yards max, using the definitions people have been using for years. And going anything farther than 8 yards is absolutely ridiculous.
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In no universe is 5 yards proxy camping. That's the range of Prove Thyself, that's lunge distance.
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Have you tried patrolling gens?
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Numbers can change... this is what they want to test 16M then go from there
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In what universe is 16 yards "right next to the survivor's face"?
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Don't you think the range would need to be a little larger than the typical facecamping range, to ensure that facecamping killers don't just take two steps back and return to business as usual?
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Lmao almost like how you play the game and how you're able to play the game are two separate things
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How is 16 yards "a little larger" than melee range?
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Well, facecamping is just standing in clear view of the hook- it hasn't had the requirement of touching the survivor model or near about since they removed the ability to block unhooks. So, the typical range already isn't just melee range, it's any range where the killer can see value while just standing in one place.
As for the specifics of 16 metres, I don't know if that's too much! It'll depend on some other factors we don't know about yet, and we'll all have a grand time testing it on the PTB.
Does that actually change anything meaningfully, though? Because honestly, I don't think slightly-off-so-not-quite-facecamping is any better than "true" facecamping if the gameplay is exactly the same.
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On some map, in clear view can be 50 meters away.
Face camping has always been right next to the hook. Originally it was standing right in front to prevent any unhook attempt.
If they prevent proxy camping they can be ready to get a lot of negative feedback (not to mention how silly the plays will look in game)
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Yes, that's why I clarified to any distance you can stand and still get value - I'd personally calculate that at probably around ten metres, since that'd take a little over two seconds to traverse? Add in another second's worth of travel to compensate for killers trying to only put themselves very slightly behind that edge, and you get pretty close to the number the devs decided on. On paper it's sound, we'll have to see how it works in practice.
See above.
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And if they spend 90% of the time at 11m then periodically cut into 10m when they spot a survivor?
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Except other survivors make it progress slower...
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I'm pretty sure the system exists to stop the killer from standing near the hook and grinding the gameplay to a halt, based on the way it was described. With that in mind, the extra distance to factor in taking a step back is totally necessary- it sends the message that you aren't supposed to be doing this at all, and that you shouldn't be doing it still but slightly further back to give survivors more of a chance.
Plus, it's a little wiggle room so survivors don't have to have their timing absolutely tight and perfect to counter a tactic that quite literally requires the killer to do nothing at all.
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Great visualization! It means that radius should be increased twice, right? I sure hope so.
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it should not be because you're still camping. it should be greatly slowed though
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I mean sure, it should be very significantly slower.
The point after all is to punish camping killers when it's not necessary, when there aren't other survivors nearby, so that those other survivors can do gens and punish the killer that way.
But the original question was about the 10-16m buffer and why it's necessary.
If I were designing it in a way that couldn't be abused by killers sitting just outside of effective camping range, then I would design a buffer. And I would tune the speeds in such as way that if the killer is spending time between the active camping range (1-10m) and the buffer (10-16m) then they would still initiate the anti-camping mechanic, but if a killer is spending time in the buffer range (10-16m) and outside of that range (16m+) in any amount, then it wouldn't be effective at activating the anti-camping mechanic.
This is where the precise values of how much this gauge increases by comes into play. If it's tuned in a way that a killer who spends most of there time outside of 10m, even though they're occasionally within 16m, doesn't provide enough gauge to give the survivor an unhook, but a killer who dances between 5, 10 and 16m in an effort to camp while still slowing it down does provide enough gauge to unhook yourself, then it's working as intended, and you have nothing to fear in that 16m limit unless you're actively camping within 10m.
That's the point of the buffer.
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"or otherwise in the immediate vicinity"
How are we defining 'immediate vicinity' here? It's clearly referring to a condition other than directly facing the survivor, "or otherwise"
"allows them to easily interrupt grabs and prevent rescues"
This is possible within around 10m, depending on immediate obstacles, which is why they designed it to be the range it is.
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Depends on the range. I would say if it were possible to code it this precisely, then if the survivors is closer to the hook than the killer is, then it should stop. But if they can only code by range of the hook and not relative position, then it makes sense to be a speed reduction. Otherwise the killer could be at 1m, and the survivor at 15m, and it would stop.
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Yes, exactly. Pretty much the exact quote I would've grabbed.
A killer sitting at 12m away, or whatever's just behind the smaller range you'd propose, is also causing minimal gameplay. They aren't being active, they aren't progressing the game and engaging with its mechanics, they're standing there. Staring at a survivor, waiting for a teammate to come and try to save. That's the same kind of scenario that the devs are trying to avoid here, based on their wording.
So, factor in the slight buffer area to compensate for players who want to game the system (while acknowledging there's always going to be players that play as little as possible, so it can't be too large; Kindred's aura reveal zone is pretty intuitive here), and the slight buffer for making sure survivors don't have to be absolutely on-point to counter it if killers are outside the new zone... and you end up with something like what the devs proposed here.
Now, I'm not saying this number is perfect. I can't say that, I haven't played with it yet. What I'm saying is that theoretically, in an abstract sense like we're talking about it now, it makes total sense for the number to be bigger than what is strictly considered facecamping.
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The killer could go after the one survivor they can see at 15m and initiate a chase with them... rather than standing still at the hook and waiting for that one survivor to come closer.
Depending on LoS blockers and whether or not the killer is undetectable, it may take coming to within 10-16m for the rescuing survivor to discover the camper and then leave again.
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The frustrating part of this conversation that seems to be left out, is that sometimes the only option you have to salvage a game is to sit by the hook and force out a hook state. People don't have to like it, they can find it offensive, but sometimes it's gotta be done. Not an option anymore.
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Which is typically during endgame (when this is deactivated) or when other survivors are nearby (when this slows down, and means those others survivors aren't gaining anything from it).
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Does this mean the end of basement bubba?
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I'm talking about when 2-3 gens pop during your first chase. If the game is gonna be remotely competitive after that point you're going to have to force a trade or two or secure second stage. It punishes killers without mobility or an instadown especially.
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In all my time playing killer I have never felt that camping a survivor outside of endgame was a beneficial move. If 2-3 gens pop early on (which is typical), you have fewer targets to defend, and going after those gens and intercepting survivors there is almost always more effective than standing still and doing nothing, while the other survivors carry on rushing gens. Unless you're bubba, you will invariably end up wasting all that camping time, only to have another survivor rescue them anyway, and then the exits are powered before you know it.
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No. How often do you see recently unhooked survivor make it out of the basement with Bubba? It will probably be less likely because there won't be other survivors in the way to even try slowing down Bubba for a hook trade. You'll also still get the survivors that want to attempt unhooking their teammate and feed themselves to Bubba or the solo survivors falling for Insidious Bubba. Anti-camp does nothing to camping Bubba.
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immediate still means directly next to. There are other immediate directions, like directly to the left of the survivor, or directly to the right of the survivor, and all the other 360 degrees the killer could be, and still be directly next to the survivor.
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except here, they clearly said what they think face camping is:
Face-camping is a term used to describe when a killer stands in front of a hooked survivor and refuses to move, or do anything really, usually for a large portion if not the entirety of the match.
a mechanic to address facecamping.
they're punishing all forms of being near a hooked survivor which will be a gigantic nerf to every single killer except nurse.
you can argue as much as you want whether this is a good change or a bad change, but it's essential to clarify what is actually being argued.
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All forms of just standing next to a hook, not all forms of being near a hooked survivor in general. We already know they plan on this system lessening if you have a reason to be in that area, because there are other survivors there, so if there's a reason to be around a hooked survivor the worst case scenario is that you're less punished- and if it's that worst case scenario on the PTB I'd be pretty reasonably sure it'd get changed before live.
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