Do the devs know what “face camping” is?
Comments
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Correct. BHVR was really just trying say "directly next to, in all the 360 degrees that the killer could be relative to the survivor", but that sounds awkward to read, so they said "otherwise in the immediate vicinity".
This "maybe 16 yards counts as face camping" is such a fake made up argument some people are making. There was zero confusion to what face camping meant before the anti-face camping announcement was made, and "directly next to" was always the definition of face camping.
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Explain to me, why should the system just lessen instead of stopping when the Killer has a reason to be in the area?
At this point this is basically saying: "Don't break this rule, or you will be punished. However, if you are not breaking the rule, you will still be punished, just not as harshly."
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See the problem is that people would actually have to play killer to understand this
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I'm on the fence. I think stopping when a survivor is near would probably be wiser, and that's something I'm going to keep an eye on while testing, but I do kind of see why they might want it to slow- could be that they want to not have one brainless solo queue teammate mess everything up for the person being camped, could be they want a camped survivor to still be able to get off the hook at the last second if someone veers too close for some reason, could be that they're worried about griefing like PTB Reassurance.
It's one of the elements that it's hard to really speculate about until we see it in practice.
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The devs did state that this works through the floor, so yeah - killers are screwed on multi-level maps/buildings.
Once again, the devs have only considered one side of the equation.
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In their blog post about the anti-camping mechanic (https://deadbydaylight.com/news/anniversary-gameplay-updates/) they say "directly in front of hook or otherwise immediate vicinity." 16 meters is in the "immediate vicinity" where the killer can "easily interrupt grabs and prevent rescues." If you run Kindred many times you will see the killer hanging out 16 meters away watching the hook and as soon as they see a survivor approaching for a save they have no problem getting to hook to stop the save because 16 meters really isn't that far.
More than just Nurse will be fine with this change.
Bubba you can continue to facecamp because chainsaw sweep does not care about endurance and odds are you'll be able to get 2 hits on single survivor quickly. Huntress can hit survivors further than 16 meters away. Deathslinger can reach survivors 18 meters away and pull them away from the hook. Hag can place a trap and teleport from over 16 meters. Wesker, Blight, Billy, and Spirit can all quickly cross 16 meters to the hook like the Nurse. You can leave Victor within the 16 meters and have Charlotte just outside 16 meters. Trapper can still place traps around the hooked survivor - if in shack basement he can camp with shack trapped up and stop the survivor from leaving if they unhook themself. Knight can send one of his guys back to the hook while he hangs out just outside the 16 meters. Ghostface can still mark the incoming survivor while sitting outside the 16 meters.
With any killer you can still straight up face camp and just tunnel them out like currently happens when survivors do manage to unhook their teammate - except now those survivors won't be there to slow you down with body blocks while recently unhooked makes distance.
Killers will still be able to camp, they'll just have to put in a bit more effort and may end up with more hook trades instead of hook grabs where they slug rescuer until hooked survivor dies.
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16 meters is not that far. Killers are able to make that distance and interrupt a survivor making the save - I see it often in solo q using Kindred. Killer sees a survivor approaching and heads to the hook to stop them. They aren't staying 16 meters back waiting for the rescuer to get to the hook before they move.
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Deathslinger anyone? Nurse? Blight? Victor? Demo?
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I think their next thing should be to figure out ways to buff lower-tier killers instead of nerfing this mechanic before we even see its effects.
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I don't know why, but I expected it. Thank you, finally I have the answer I was searching.
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"Anti-camp is fine, so long as it doesn't interfere with camping"
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This is of course a possible issue, but honestly, between having both a griefer and a face-camper in your game and simply being on a map where the Killer can't avoid going near certain hooks, I think the later will occur way more often.
Midwich, Dead Dawg, RPD, The Game, Lery's and every mapgen that has the Basement in the Shack are all all but guaranteed to cause issues.
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How is proxy camping a bad thing?
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16 meters is fine that's the very edge of usual proxy camping I just hope that zone does not get bigger. Issue I see is survivors s running through that zone to escape you.
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Oh I agree, one of the things I'm most wary about is it going through floors. Like I said, I also do think it should probably just stop outright if a survivor is in the radius, but I'm open to testing it and seeing how it works. For example, if another survivor being around slows it to a crawl, to the point you're never gonna fill the bar unless it was already at 99%, I can't be too mad at that.
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Nah. You can slug and snowball from there. Plenty of games have been won by killers even after a rough start with gens popping. You can definitely still get boat raced, but that attitude is all woah is me easy way out bs.
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If the survivor is in that zone, the killer is allowed in that zone. The meter fills up significantly slower if there are any survivors in the zone.
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The issue is that it still goes up not down
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Creates an easier tunnel. Forces players to stay on their gens, which makes a less interactive game for everyone.
First down gets taken out of the game in four minutes with maybe 7k bp at best.
Other players spend the first four minutes mashing gens or maybe try to take agro from a killer that uses their natural speed increase and blood lust to ignore them to the tunneled survivor.
Killer gets "gen rushed" because of the tunnel taking too long or maybe they end up playing a competitive game after that. Probably depends on if they're up against SWF.
That's my take. More interaction is better for the game as a whole. Killers need to adapt or die so to speak.
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What BHVR doesn't realize is that in many maps, practically all, there are situations like this where the hook is near a generator.
If I use that hook with a survivor, and maybe 1 or 2 generators are missing to be completed, it's not "face camp" if I stay in that area but it's tactic, stay close to a target and an important area. Why should I ever walk away? It's ridiculous
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How is tunneling bad? I eliminate one of the 4 survivors making it easier for me as a killer.
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If this BS of a Survivor-sided 'anti facecamp' idea goes through floors and ceilings; I think I may be done with DBD.
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If you're so scared of the meter filling up even just a smidge then I don't know what to tell you. Stay out of the 16 meters? Go all the way around it?
You're not gonna get perma-banned if the meter reaches 50%... 75%... 99%
It has to reach 100% for them to self unhook, and that means the other survivor would have to successfully loop you around the hook for 1 to 2 minutes for it to fill up at the slower rate (unless you were hardcore face-camping before the other survivor showed up). Even then, the hooked survivor will only get 1 chance to self unhook instead of twice, if at all.
And, honestly, if they can loop you for that long in such a small area, they all deserve to escape. 🤷♂️
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Then guard that gen from outside the zone, or on the outermost part you can reach...
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I think some of you are being a bit disingenuous. If your intention is to camp, 9/10 times 5 meters vs 16 meters will not matter. As soon as you see someone approaching for the save, you are going to immediately close the distance to cut them off. If you really want them hooked, just wait for them to unhook themselves and/or they will have to second phase (because it's not like the devs said the hook timer pauses).
And before anyone asks, yes I play both sides (started as a killer main). I find most camping/tunneling to be a lazy (but effective) way to get easy wins.
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Not actively punishing.
The survivor isn't escaping the hook every single second that you stand in the zone. It's not the "Hook Proximity" penalty that's used in the Emblem scoring.
You are punished when the meter fills up.
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Who are you quoting? I didn't say that.
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In this scenario, the killer has an option besides camping, they can pursuit the survivor waiting to unhook.
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I did not say walk away.
I said GUARD IT from a spot that will fill the meter up the slowest.
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So? you will score another down and another hook, which is the point of the game.
It seems you are dead set on eliminating a survivor on a single hook, which is the entire problem with camping. If a survivor dies on their first hook, it should be due to the failure of their team, not due to the pig-headedness of the killer who is refusing to play the game and instead stands by a hook for 2 minutes straight. How is that in any way enjoyable?
You will eliminate survivors faster by hooking them successively, and whittling down their hook states, than by camping each one out for the full 2 minutes. AND you will occupy the attention of more survivors for longer, which will serve to slow down gen progression.
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That's not stupid, that's smart killer play. You will score more hooks, which will put survivors in the weaker position.
As a killer, I want to score as many hooks as possible. I often use Make Your Choice, or play killers that can Expose, to cut chases down, and score back to back hooks, often turning survivors hasty hook saves into easy downs and hook trades and capitalising on overly-altruistic gameplay.
At no point have I ever felt the need to camp out a hook state. I can't imagine being so incredibly dull as to want to stand still for 2 minutes doing nothing just to end up with a 2K because you didn't pressure any other survivors. Camping is the mark of a lazy, inexperienced killer who can't outplay survivors, so they have to hoard the few hooks they can get.
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Going through floors is going to be tricky to balance. On one hand there are maps/sections where being on second floor is like being across the map, no way for killer to get back to hook quickly unless they have teleport ability like Nurse or Hag. On other hand there are plenty that camp basement from just above to stop survivors reaching the stairs or will hook survivor below a drop down spot where they can easily grab the rescuer. They said they're aware and are going to keep an eye on the anti-camp going through floors so I'm sure adjustments will be made.
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Same here. I'm wary, but I'm not against it, for the reasons you outlined.
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"I'm gonna abandon gen, walk up to the killer to make sure he knows where I am and start the chase without the killer having to waste time to get to me and find me because it'll allow someone else to safely unhook, which they'd be able to do anyway if the killer just went out to find me and chase me."
Again, buddy, you aren't thinking about what this scenario you're describing is in contrast to.
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"A bunch of gentime, cut hide-and-seek and map traversal time = free"
But think for a moment, though, about how the situation you're clinging to compares to the survivors -not- employing that tactic.
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Talking about playing stupid: It's also really stupid to actively walk into the killer instead of just doing a gen.
You're comparing 'Abuse situation with system' to 'abuse situation without system' and then complaining about that change, but you -should- be comparing 'abuse situation with system' to 'non-abuse situation with system' instead.
You get upset over this situation you describe and having to give up the hook for that, but if the survivors don't play to exploit that tactic, you've got at least one extra survivor on a gen, making progress, and, quite possibly, a long trek and search to go before you can get into chase. And you're going to lose the hook anyway.
The survivors doing what you describe is literally slowing them down and speeding the killer up. They are making the game easier for you if they try to 'abuse' in the way you describe. You, as the killer, are better off if they try to pull of this tactic.
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Sure
for example RPD map where there are 2/3 hooks near the center with 2 gens usually and i have to leave the entire area just because otherwise i'll camp ? are you serious ? this is just plain stupid
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It is objectively better for the survivors to NOT employ the strategy you are describing. The 'abuse' situation is purely beneficial to the killer.
Post edited by BoxGhost on2 -
the main thing that concerns me is that this will basically screw indoor maps. They basically admitted that, as a killer, you may get punished for staying above the hooked survivor on another floor, even if you aren't camping. If a feature isn't ready to be implemented and you don't know the solution for such a problem, then just don't make that feature.
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You are forced to leave that area -anyway-. Whether there is a survivor or not, you are forced to leave that area.
You can either do so with a survivor sitting on a gen, making actual progress, more than 16 meters away, with the ability to hide from you while you approach, or you can do so with a survivor sitting in plain sight right in front of you, not doing a gen.
Which would you prefer? Survivors literally throwing themselves at you, or survivors doing gens?
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Add to that Huntress, Trickster, Wesker, Pyramid Head and hell even Wraith. So essentially half the roster.
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And why is this a bad thing?
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If someone comes to contest the hook
Then, by your own admission, they are wasting their time! This is the problem that you cannot wrap your head around. You call it a lose/lose for the killer when in fact it's a win, because the killer is better off than if the survivors hadn't bothered contesting the hook.
That's not 'abusing the system'. That's the survivors making a misplay and you failing to understand the macro perspective behind it. You are not losing out as killer under this situation, you are benefitting from it.
If no one shows up at the hook, you are left with no intel, no eye on any survivor, who are likely all doing gens. You can try and make your approach, but there's no guarantee that you won't be spotted beforehand and there's no guarantee you won't lose the survivor during the approach. You might even head to the wrong gen and waste a ton of time travelling up and down the map. And if you DO enter a chase, you do, in return 'give a completely free and safe unhook with no danger at all to the other survivor'.
In contrast, in the situation you describe, you are immediately upon a survivor, you know where the are, they can't slip from you without blocking out their scratch marks, you don't waste time travelling, and you have zero chance of heading the wrong way.
What do the survivors get out of it? 'A completely free and safe unhook with no danger at all to the other survivor'. The exact same thing they get if all of them had just stuck to their gens.
The 'misplay' in the situation you describe leaves you in a better state than the correct play in any other situation.
Your problem here is that you want to retain the ability to deny an unhook by camping. And that is exactly what the system is meant to refuse.
Your frustration with this scenario is an argument -in favour- of the system, because it suggests that it is working.
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Them only being able to down the unhooker?
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So you just want face camping back? I don’t understand your point at all. It’s unhealthy for the game. DbD is meant to be a party game, there shouldn’t be an option to just not allow someone to play the game.
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"If survivors are nearby, the killer's smartest play is to camp, but the mechanic affects them, which is completely and irrevocably unacceptable."
No, it isn't. You may not like it, but that's of no concern. You're still camping, and that is what the system is set up to punish.
Your concern is that a survivor will be able to get the unhook. That's your reason to label the option of chasing a survivor a 'lose'. That is what the system is adressing. You are not supposed to indefinitely stall an unhook.
The system works as intended. Take the L on the micro and take the W on the macro. Get over your pathological fear of survivors getting to play the game.
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So code the damn thing for various scenarios:
If map=The Game then use variable X
or
if hook near 2 story area then use variable X
if if if then then then
seems simple to me and I’m not even a programmer
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No… it is a problem lmao. It’s boring as hell and doesn’t let people play the game. That is inherently a problem. It sounds to me like you just want easy wins tbh.
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See, if you leave the hook you might have to chase one of the other two survivors off of gens, so there's only one person on gens at that point and that's...
Ooooh, that slows down generator repair. Wow, it's almost like that's how the game was played before gen kick meta.
/Sarcasm
Edit: typos
Post edited by AmpersandUnderscore on2 -
This is where it's a VERY slippery and fine line....on one hand they do t want greifers to ruin the fun of others, on the other hand they are leaving it open for abuse by Survivors to ensure a free unhook with little threat to them.
Until we know the finer details of HOW slow the timer gets (that's IF BHVR will even tell us since they like to use very obtuse descriptions for anything) all we can do is see all the negative effects of this mechanic.
I'm on the fence but I side towards the timer stops because I have seen hook within nightmarishly annoying jungle gyms, multi story hooks (ie The Gme), or even Killer Shack a Survivor could run a Killer, who ISNT camping, around said area and still progress the jump timer. That's why the OTHER camping mechanics failed miserably is that Survivors abused it by doing exactly that.
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