lets discuss dbd game problem fixes are usually punishments for killers
it seems more like a stick (for killer) than carrot approach
killers face camp then we will give the survivors free unhooks (stick) instead of say grim embrace to incentivize going after the unhooker (carrot)
killer tunnels off an unhook then we will give the survivors a tankable hit(stick) instead of say taking away hit detection to the unhooked survivor to incentivize going after the unhooker (carrot)
killers cant take chases to unsafe looping areas because of gen rushing/bad maps(stick) instead of say giving killers who are looping for a certain time a built in deadlock(carrot)
swf gen rushing and finishing the game in 5 minutes (stick) instead of say giving killers noed or even no way out if the game time is less than 5 minutes (carrot)
survivors can bodyblock killers going to the hook with no reprecussion(hook) instead of say giving killers hitting the body blockers built in broken status effect (carrot)
hooks breaking for killers so slugging has to happen (stick) instead of say having a hook respawn after a certain period of time of the survivor being slugged
are there any more that are missing?
what are the communities thought process on this...can't be the only one who sees it is this way?
am I missing any obvious ones that did favor killers instead of survivors (dead hard/decisive strike unbreakable combo/boil over)?
Comments
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We have carrots galore in the past year. 6.1 gave 10 seconds to gens, mini pop on kick, tier 1 brutal strength, 2 permanent stacks of stbfl, entirely free as base kit buffs.
Dead Hard got nerfed twice, DS got deleted, circle of healing is all but gone too.
Killers used every single one of those buffs to camp, tunnel, and hold 3 gens for nearly a year.
Carrots don't work without directly making camping and tunneling less efficient in some way, plain and simple.
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Eh, imo, avoiding mechanics that reward toxic gameplay is more important than making a certain aspect of the game less annoying to everyone. There are workarounds to the struggles, and i personally am fine with the issues that i face knowing if i didnt face them playing survivor would suck more than ive heard it already does
if youre playing killer, i think you should be aware that in this kind of game youre already in for a rough ride being the only one against 4 opponents, if someone doesnt like the way the game pans out when they arent willing to be sweaty even a little bit, then this game might just not be for them.
i kinda like how it is, but the idea of limiting survivors ability to escape if the egt is hit too quickly actually sounds sick as #########, and id so be down for that being a gamemode or something
also theres never an excuse for slugging imo
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I don't think the killers are hungry, which is why they need to be force-fed.
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I don't think windows blocking punishes the killer, they use to never block
neither do speeding up the longer the chase goes on,breaking pallets faster (did you know they used to take 3 seconds to break?), vaulting windows faster, survivors not being able to teleport from one side to the pallet to the other (yes they used to be able to do that), flashlights blinding you irl with a white screen in 0.4 seconds or something rediculous you as a human couldn't react too, etc.
Outside of that sticks just tend to work better then carrots. And carrots tend to be sticks for the other side
What if a killer wants to facecamp a survivor because they don't like their cosmetic, no amount of grim embrace will help against that.
Taking away collision does nothing if the killer actually wants to tunnel
You say in build deadlock for being looped to long is a carrot. Look at it from the survivors perspective and it's a massive stick that punishes them for chasing well.
Same with the noed under 5 minute thing. Why punish survivors for doing well? If it actually is a problem wouldn't it make more sense to prevent it from happening. Like increasing gen times and nerfing addons that could complete a gen in less then a second (actual changes made)
Bodyblocking one of the only ways to save your teammate. You have to already trade a healthstate for it and allow the killer to just drop the survivor and start chasing you. Which is a very risky situation that can quickly snowball into the killers favor. Why would you punish it even further?
I do agree with the hook suggestion but note how that's the only one that's a carrot to both sides.
Recently it may seem that killer get "punished" but it the past most of these kind of stick changes were for survivors. They happen for both sides
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The carrot was 6.1.0 and the CoB, Overcharge and Eruption meta.
Carrot didn't work.
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Built in deadlock makes no sense. At least not in the situation you've suggested and it isn't really addressing the underlying issues but just trying to cover it up.
Giving out NOED and NWO for losing the game in 5 mins is insanely unhealthy. It would be better to address why the game pace can be pushed that fast to begin with when the rough time balance is supposed to between 9-15mins.
Given broken by default against bodyblockers is also wildly unhealthy. Survivors do have every right to try and prevent hooks and there are perks in the game that mitigate the strength of bodyblocking on top of just generally being helpful in niche playstyles.
You hook statement needs clarification as you talking about Sabo or just breakage from completing a sacrifice? Now in general there should be no default deadzones on maps where hooks just don't exist or only one exists.
Killers who have made it a habit to face camp do not respond to incentives or punishments that still allow them to maintain their face camping. People who camp strategically aren't really going to be affected and are already pretty incentivized via perks to opt for riskier plays more often than not.
People keep suggesting loss of hit collision after unhook and I question whether or not they understand how terrible that is for overall game feel. While survivors do need a chance to escape, killers also need a somewhat equal chance to deny that escape if they make a mistake. Currently with base kit BT that have that chance and killers can use that against them via forcing them to mend deep wounds which eats up their time. Though I wasn't in favor of it as I feel we'd benefit more if a gameplay overhaul took place instead, it is working roughly as intended it seems. It's never been completely eliminate tunneling just mitigate the strength of it.
Killer in a lot of ways is not great to play right now, but it would be disingenuous to say that an incentive structure method to issues hasn't been used enough. Now could we use more incentives? Certainly, within reason. While I will always stress you should not be responsible for the fun of your opponent you should keep in mind that the game is only good when both sides are empowered to have fun.
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Give killers a better knife doesnt stop killer to bring a gun to a knife fight.
Its best to take away the gun.
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was 6.1 that big of a carrot?
the gen kicking meta was an oversight from the dev team in letting all of them stack
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most m1 killers are already bringing a knife to a gun fight ^_^ unless all the low tier killers got buffed somehow and I missed it
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10 seconds to gens really isnt that much, mini pop on kick still regresses four times slower than a survivor just tapping it, tier 1 brutal strength which doesn't really make chases any shorter ( i would argue the lessened sprint burst after a hit actually helps out more), 2 stacks of stbfl only really helps if stbfl is also used in the match.
ds can still be used to get to a safe loop, dead hard still works after an unhook (you are just guaranteed a quick first chase), circle of healing i will agree with
tunneling once again with no hit detection after the unhook would make it easier than a killer either counting to 10 or hitting them with a faster killer to force deep wounds and take away dead hard and tunnel the survivor again
camping once again give the killer a reason to go after other survivors a grim embrace effect or even a thanataphobia slowdown
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windows blocking is one i agree i forgot about that one
pallet breaking needed to be hurried up with as many safe pallets that infest most maps or there would never be any mindgameable downs
taking away collision actually makes it so the killer cant force deep wounds on the tunneled survivor to give them a chance to dead hard if the want to use that perk
deadlock for looping would only affect one gen...doesnt stop more from being worked on as any efficient team can have 3 gens going during a single chase
noed under 5 minute thing is because the devs want to keep gen rushing builds viable (even worse with bnp/stacked toolboxes) while nerfing all gen regression perks (for the most part)...the bandaid would be the survivors didn't want to do totems then give the killer a final last ditch effort to be scary like any good horror movie
bodyblocking if done effectively lets the survivors get away during the wiggle stun(and heal up with a good medkit at a safe loop)...keeping them in a broken state from being hit makes conga lining an actual risk vs reward factor. I dont have a problem with blinding the killer, pallet stunning, or sabatoging the hook since those take up resources
the hook suggestion is healthy to stop such an outdated mechanic...if the hook respawns it obviously loses any scourge hook properties which i forgot to add
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which is why i play skull merchant and knight on bad nights ^_^
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Yes?
CoB, Overcharge, STBFL, PR, DMS, Deadlock, Eruption were all extremely meta and powerful options.
Gens took longer, DH got a big nerf, DS got obliterated, Killers break things faster, recover faster and Survivors got less of a speed boost on hit.
If anything was going to make Killers stop tunneling or camping by giving them powerful tools so that they wouldn't "need" to, it was that patch.
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The carrot does not work. You can incentivise different behavior, but so long as the win conditions are kills over hooks for killers, and escaping via the gates for survivors, there's really no reason for either side to play in a less efficient way.
Tunneling is strong because it's efficient when done right. Camping is strong because it's efficient when done right. Genrushing is maximising repair efficiency. These are all problems that boil down to one common factor: Players like winning.
For some, simply having a good game is more important than winning, but for others winning is all that matters. Why play if you're not playing to win, after all?
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Yes Dh got nerfed and at the same patch genregression got nuked. Killers got basekit buffes Survivors got base BT and Stackout Hyperfocus were very popular so instead of +10 Seconds there were -40 Seconds. CoH removed Selfheal, but healing numbers got doubled. DS got nerfed while OTR got a massiv buff.
So what was the reson for Tunneling and camping. I think maybe the genrush, the nuked KILLER meta, the bad design of maps and not the "buffes"
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People tunnel because removing a survivor is the most efficient way to win the game.
During the Eruption meta killers literally had the ability to force survivors to stand afk for 26 seconds at a time.
Killers used that to tunnel and camp for easier wins.
I do not believe for a single second that even if devs nerfed gen speeds to 5 minutes per generator that tunneling would do anything other than get stronger. If the 'best, most efficient strategy' gets buffed, why would people stop using it for a single second?
The game revolves entirely, 100% around how killers decide to play. If a killer wants to try and get ready wins with tunneling and camping it will work, for quite some time, while they decimate uncoordinated teams like the nearly 60% of survivors who play solo q.
The strategy works until they hit their peak because of actual skill level, which varies. But eventually for almost all killers, they will hit that peak where camping and tunneling literally cannot carry them to victory further. The killer has won which games that their MMR is putting them against survivors who are coordinated, knowledgeable, or just better loopers so that every game becomes a sweat fest. But MMR isn't a deterrent, killers just hit that ceiling and clamor for buffs or survivor nerfs.
(And in one unique circumstance we have one killer who has the skill to end chases with blight to become literally unbeatable with that strategy.)
And all of that is because camping and tunneling are simply too strong for the level of effort required. You simply can't buff killers anymore without first addressing the efficiency of tunneling and camping.
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People defending something that everyone been wanting to be fixed since year 1 lol
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Then delete them all.
I'm so tired of hearing 'but all these base kit buffs are so small'. Their removal is apparently 'trivial' as well.
Survivors would welcome the nerfs to killers, and killers should be wanting some meaningful buffs in their place.
If you truly think these do nothing and have no impact, every player on both sides should be screaming for their removal immediately.
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Stop camping!
If you want the killers to be more menacing stop camping so the DEVs can see the problem.
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Killer players don't want just a carrot. they want gigantic Godzilla-sized carrot plus a bag with 100 mil USD inside. And maybe after that they'll stop doing bad things but that's not guaranteed
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There is no stick and there is no carrot. There has only been a constant struggle to balance the imbalance that a 4v1 game will always have. Looking back through various patches, even at a glamce, shows this constant shuffling.
Whether the changes in the past had been good (Anti-tunnel, DH nerf, Mori changes) and some far from good (Hillbilly nerf, the Boon problem), it's normally been based upon either a need to or an experiment of sorts.
There's plenty of evidence to support the fact BHVR are unbiased.
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why do that when survivors got some new busted perks on this coming update especially scavenger ^_^ which i will totally abuse since i play both sides that is why i see the difference more clearly
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i agree with you on that point it was even worse timing that the knight and skull merchant came out during that time but remember how much more busted it was in the ptb...i remember seeing a dowsey video of the ptb where overcharge and call of brine would regress a gen faster than 2 survivors with prove thyself could fix it
the dumb thing is all of the good gen perks got nuked so of course tunneling and camping were going to be more commonplace now (except deadlock which has survived for now)
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Every time i see a person saying like survivors being nerfed constantly and totally ignored the nerfed killer got,and remember that in reality survivor is actually only got the first nerf in 9 months is making me laugh.
WoW biased is like a magic,it really can make people see a totally different world.
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Stick is fine as long as there's a good alternative, so I think a carrot is needed in addition to the stick. But that's not what's happening, its just stick.
It doesn't help that the stick seems to only be for killers either. We got basekit BT, basekit Deliverance is on the way, basekit UB might be on the way.
Meanwhile not a word of any basekit help for killers to counter gen rush, survivors running to hook dead zones, ect.
It seems very much give the survivors all the carrots and give the killers all the sticks, not great IMO.
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-"Carrots don't work without directly making camping and tunneling less efficient in some way, plain and simple."
Wake up - reality is calling. If you put in a base mechanic that is better than tunneling then I'll do that. It needs to be a stronger bonus than hooking one player three times.
Imagine for example you give survivors a 9% permanent penalty to all actions each time someone is hooked for the first time if no one is dead. Hook everyone once and there's a nice 36% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game.
Anything less than that and I'm gonna tunnel at 5 gens because it works.
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Okay, but we're generally trying to keep the game balanced, not just hand out free wins to killers all over the place. With that in mind, carrots don't work.
But yeah, if you throw balance out the window, you could probably design something that makes not tunnelling more effective than tunnelling.
Imagine for example you give survivors a 9% permanent penalty to all actions each time someone is hooked for the first time if no one is dead. Hook everyone once and there's a nice 36% penalty to all actions for the rest of the game.
So 36% in four hooks, or 33% and way higher pressure in three hooks.
Swing and a miss.
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Basekit dying light without the Obsession action boost or a repair penalty to all non injured survivors after 4 unique survivors have been hooked
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Why change the subject?
The point was that you said the base kit buffs were worthless. No perk or patch alters the value of those global, always on buffs killers received.
Killers are absolutely terrified of nerfs. You know, for certain, that those 6.1 buffs have value and you can't even admit that. You're grasping at everything else in existence rather than even saying those words: the base kit buffs have value.
You want them to stay, while simultaneously downplaying it like killers have never received a buff in the history of DBD.
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I don't know why you keep saying about 6.1.0 buff.
The buff from 6.1.0 is totally not enough to cover the perks nerf if you don't know.
And the perks nerf is even begin in the same patches in 6.1.0 and keep going with every single patch.
Read the patch notes.
Killer before 6.1.0 actually stronger than now.
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Ironic how everyone instantly names 6.1.0 as carrot, but completely ignores that this was the ONLY carrot killers ever received. Which also came with a stick (slowdown meta was nuked).
4 -
What?
6.1.0:
- Increased Eruption's detonation regression from 6 to 10%
- Increased Eruption's incapacitation duration from 16 to 25 seconds
- Removed Jolt's cooldown
- Added Overcharge's regression speed increase from 75 to 200%
- Gift of Pain's repair speed penalty was increased from 9 to 16%
It didn't nuke it, 6.1.0 -created- the slowdown meta.
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The thing with a "carrot approach" is that it often doesn't actually address the underlying issue.
Stating that "killers camp/tunnel because they have to" and using that as a premise to carrot away camping and tunneling ignores two big factors: first, there are people who want to camp and tunnel. The only thing that stops them from camping/tunneling is it being mechanically impossible. Second, what constitutes "have to"? It's subjective and not measurable. There are so many things that make some killer go "well, I guess I have to camp and tunnel then" while others just shrug and don't give a damn about it. (The same is also true for the BNP-strong-TB genrushing on surv side, btw). Again, making it mechanically impossible to employ certain strategies past a certain limit is the only option. --- The crux of the matter being the "certain point".
As for long chases: Killer already got a carrot. It's bloodlust. - Personally I wouldn't object to bloodlust not being dropped as fast as it is now / completely resetting right away.But before bloodlust is addressed I suppose maps as well as hook and gen spawns need to be addressed.
There are literally perks for preventing a killer to hook and achievements linked to it. It is an intended mechanic. Down =/= hookstage. - There are some combinations that make it obnoxious, I agree. But those are usually only obnoxious on certain maps and/or with certain hook rng. Which means maps/hookspawns need looking at...? Similar for a killer running out of hooks.
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The way I am understanding is that killers just want to have the freedom to choose if they'll camp/tunnel this game or not. Of course this raises question on if they deserve all that power, and if that power will be removed from survivors who might have to play in a more restrictive way to acomodate that.
It's probably not possible to dis-incentivize killers camping/tunneling now that they've learned of its effectiveness, even if you give BBQ and Chili a 200% bonus to BP. People who care about BP already try to get more hooks because the game lasting longer is a better guarantee of BP than tunneling/camping someone and getting 4k for it.
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Start at the beginning of the conversation.
He was saying specifically those buffs are worthless, and we're taking about exactly, and only that.
Edit: at least, *I* an only taking about those base kit buffs. That 'whataboutery' is attempting to talk about literally anything else.
You're responding to the end of a chain you haven't read entirely.
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6.1.0:
KILLER PERKS
- Barbecue and Chili
- Removed Bloodpoint bonus
- Corrupt Intervention
- Added: Corrupt Intervention deactivates when any Survivor enters the dying state.
- Note: The perk still deactivates after 2 minutes if no Survivor has entered the dying state.
- Coulrophobia
- Added: Healing Skill Checks move 50% faster for Survivors under the effect of this perk.
- Hex: No One Escapes Death
- Eruption
- Increased Generator reduction when a Survivor enters the dying state to 10% (was 6%)
- Increased duration of Incapacitated status effect to 15/20/25 seconds (was 12/14/16 seconds)
- Dark Devotion
- Now triggers when a Survivor loses a health state by any means (was just basic attacks)
- Added: Once the Hex's effect is revealed to the Survivors, its Hex Totem's aura is shown to the Survivors at a range of 4 meters. This range increases steadily over the next 30 seconds to 24 meters.
- Pop Goes the Weasel
- Changed regression to be 20% of current progress (was 25% of total)
- Note: This is calculated after the new baseline regression when kicking a generator.
- Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- Added: After Overcharge is applied to a generator, its regression speed increases from 75% of normal to 200% of normal over the next 30 seconds.
- Overcharge
- Monstrous Shrine
- Reworked - This perk is now Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine
- Scourge Hooks
- grant 10/15/20% faster Entity progression if the Killer is not within 24 meters. Basement hooks count as Scourge Hooks. T
- Lethal Pursuer
- Added: Any time a Survivor's aura is shown for a period of time, its duration is increased by 2 seconds.
- Note: The new effect applies to the duration of the normal Lethal Pursuer effect, which means it effectively reveals survivors for 9/10/11 seconds at the start of the match.
- Knock Out
- Added: Recovery speed is reduced by 25% for Survivors under the effect of this perk.
- Jolt
- Removed the cooldown
- Hex: Ruin
- Added: Once any Survivor is killed by any means, the Hex: Ruin Totem reverts to a Dull Totem.
- While a generator is not being repaired by a Survivor, it will immediately and automatically regress repair progress at 50%/75%/100% of the normal regression speed.
- Increased Healing and Repairing speed penalty to 10/13/16% (was 7/8/9%)
- Tinkerer
- Added: This effect can only be triggered once on each generator.
- Thanatophobia
- Increased individual penalties for repairing, sabotaging, and Totem cleansing to 4.5/5/5.5% (was 4/4.5/5%)
- Increased maximum penalty to 18/20/22% (was 16/18/20%)
- Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
- Removed scream effect on Survivors repairing the exploding generator, generator will spark to show regression
6.1.0 completely nuked the existing slowdown meta.
4 - Barbecue and Chili
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No, the slow meta was
Pop+pr
Pr+dms
Ruin+undying
Etcetc.
Before the 6.1.0 you really have lots of combo to choose.
But after 6.1.0 and every patch after that.
Killer literally have no perks could use now
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Strange then, how this patch also caused the CoBruption meta.
CoB, Eruption, and Overcharge weren't changed after 6.1 until the recent nerfs, nearly 10 months later. Eruption was even bugfixed to be buffed again after 6.1. so are you crediting that 8 months time to nowhere to hide? An aura perk?
People were still learning the new balance to the entire game. 6.1 had several perks bubble back up after a couple of months after the 'meta shift' settled down. (I'm sure you remember dead hard coming back to life, for example)
And about that same amount of time later people realized that the gen kick perks were good. Too good. And there we got the gen kick meta.
So how exactly is regression dead in that patch when gen kick meta was around for about 8 months?
Edit: spelling
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What?
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Eruption, Jolt, Overcharge and Gift of Pain became the new slowdown META. And it worked better than the previous META for a number of reasons. Also the Deadlock - Pain Resonance combo was restored.
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No perks? Eruption, Call of Brine, Pain Resonance and Overcharge all took the game into a chokehold, what do you mean 'no perks'?
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LUL did any of them still alive?
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We're talking about the state of the game in 6.1.0, not the current state.
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The reason was tunneling is a winning strategy for killers.
You get an average outcome without tunneling and camping, meaning in some games you get more, in other less kills. What outcome do you think would keep killers form using that strategies? we know for sure its not a 2kill 2 escape, because the killrate is even higher than that. so a 3kill 1 escape? But no, if they got 2kills and the third, most killers slug to get the 4k.
So i think killers would stop tunneling and camping if they get the 4k anyway without it, and then only maybe.
IF you have a different opinion, tell me what result on average you think killers want to not resort to tunneling and camping.
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You just know it gonna be a entertaining thread when someone list every single slow down perk that ever been nerf in alphabetical order.
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It seems that players are still all over the place when it comes to Killers
At the start of the game there was:
No Gen kicking
Slower vaults
No vault blocking
Gens being repaired in 60 seconds
BNP's instantly repairing Gens
Sabo'd hooks being destroyed for the entire match
Now:
Kicking Gens cause .25 charges per second, and 2.5% instant lose of progress (all of which don't solve a thing)
Even Perks that add more to kicking Gens
Faster vaults... even a vault blocker (and 2 perks that do the same thing with different conditions)
Sabo'd hooks come back, but Sacrificing a Survivor destroys the hook
More Killers, Survivors and Perks were added to the game
So:
It's safer to say that the game is stale... Playing different Killers with the same perks on all of the maps gets boring after awhile... there should be an unranked gamemode and a special gamemode (2V8 or 5V5) to give players new things to do
Rather then blame Killers for how they play... how about looking at how Survivors play and BHVR's balancing... Yes there are ways to play Killer without Camping and Tunneling... same can be said to Survivors that Gen Rush, get Quick Saves
Both sides want easy games... so when something happens that makes them think about how to play the game they get mad and vent on whatever social media they have
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“Gen rush” isn’t a thing, it’s something Tru3Ta1ent made up. And what is a ‘quick save’?
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I wouldn’t consider anything you mentioned above as “carrots” to incentivize killers to not tunnel or camp. Those were all things meant to shift the overall kill rates up because they had fallen too low in the devs’ opinion. While they didn’t incentivize playing more “fair”, they certainly did make it easier for killers to get downs more quickly and thus maybe have to rely less on camping and tunneling in certain matches.
The problem is that it wasn’t nearly enough for killers, especially mid-to-low tiers one, to compete against coordinated SWF. I play killer about 50% of the time and I think going against solo q is very fair and sometimes too easy. SWF is a whole different story. If survivors are playing efficiently (staying on gens, not making huge mistakes) it’s literally not possible to get a kill before all the gens are done unless you focus on getting one survivor out as quickly as possible.
But instead of BHVR addressing the real problem which is the unfair advantage that SWF has, they punish only ways that killers have to deal with it. Meanwhile, solo q survivors remain understandably frustrated that killers continue to camping and tunnel. Everyone knows what the core problem is but nobody wants to actually deal with it.
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The 10 seconds to gens did absolutely nothing. It did something for the first few days then everyone started using Prove Thyself and strong toolbox addons more which negated the 10 second nerf to gens. The fact people keep bringing this up as massive killer buff is laughable. I never felt a difference in the gen speed at all.
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Prove saves like 7 seconds and it's still inefficient to group up on gens.
You wouldn't mind if we just got rid of those changes then, I presume?
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