another plea to make Kindred basekit

luvcraft
luvcraft Member Posts: 1,235
edited May 2023 in Feedback and Suggestions

I've been getting consistently destroyed on solo queue, and I think I'm now at the absolute bottom ranks and STILL getting wrecked. So today I started using Kindred after not using it for a while, and the difference is absolutely night and day. I've escaped every match except one, and on that one we only had 1 gen left and I was dumb and forgot that Starstruck's exposed lasted a few seconds after the hook.

Kindred on solo queue communicates exactly the most important info that SWFs communicate via comms: who's going for the unhook, and whether or not the killer is camping. So I can know definitively if I should stay on a gen or go for the rescue. And I consistently get rescued instead of spending the whole match on the hook and eventually dying, because the other survivors can see who is and isn't going for the unhook.

Please PLEASE PLEASE just make it basekit. It won't make any difference to SWFs, but will make a WORLD of difference to solos.

Yes, it is a little powerful for basekit in that it shows where everyone else is and what gens they're working on, but again this is something that SWF players already know, so there's no benefit to them, and giving solos this info will just level the playfield between SWFs and solos.

Post edited by luvcraft on

Comments

  • luvcraft
    luvcraft Member Posts: 1,235

    because a whole lot of people hate solo queue because you're playing with a fraction of the information that SWF players have, and killers don't know whether you're solo queue or SWF, so they typically play in a way that's competitive against SWF, but unfair and unfun against solos. And there are elements of the game that are problems in solo queue with its limited communication but aren't problems for SWFs, so fixing them is a low priority for the devs because they're not a problem for the most visible players -- influencers who primarily play SWF. A prime example is the subject of this thread: survivors getting left on the hook isn't a problem in SWF because you can coordinate who will unhook them and when, whereas in solo queue you have no idea if you need to drop the gen you're working on to go unhook, or if someone else is doing it, and more often than not either two people run to the unhook when only one needed to, or everybody hopes someone else is going for the unhook and nobody does it, and the survivor on the hook dies.

    You're definitely right that there are two game modes for survivors -- an "easy" SWF mode and a "hardcore" solo mode -- but most players don't have access to the "easy" mode and would like to have a fighting chance in solo mode, or at least have the most frustrating parts (like being left on the hook) mitigated.

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762

    I'm sorry but kindred is not just "whether killer is camping or not", at all.

    FULL kindred basekit shouldn't be a thing, that's literal free wallhack for survivors.

  • xPrinceHarlequinx
    xPrinceHarlequinx Member Posts: 192

    The argument that you are able to escape every match now that you have kindred equipped is more of an argument against having it basekit than for it. Kindred is a wonderful perk, but its effects are a little bit too strong to just have it be default.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,716

    Half of Kindred should be basekit, pretty unambiguously. The survivor aura half absolutely should be made basekit to better prop up solo players without giving SWF anything extra.

    The killer aura half, though, would be too strong as a basekit thing, and honestly kind of unnecessary once the anti-camp change goes through. That part being on the perk is 100% reasonable, I think.

  • Spectralfx
    Spectralfx Member Posts: 605

    How about ... no.

    No more basekit, y'all have like the entire perk catalog base kit these days.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389
    edited May 2023

    You think swfs constantly know where their teammates are at all times when someone is on the hook? Dunno who you're playing with, but that ain't my group.

    Fact is kindred is obsoleted by the activity HUD and a little bit of game sense. Kate got hooked and Jane got off her gen and is not being chased? Very likely going for the unhook. Did Jane start to get chased when she got off the gen? Possible camping killer or just unlucky. Regardless, you go for the unhook. It's a very simple flowchart that it wouldn't hurt people to learn. You can't just hand everything in the game to people; it makes experience less rewarding. No more basekit perks.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,716

    Constantly? No. When it's relevant? Yes, obviously. It doesn't require all that much skill to ask "hey who's going" when someone gets hooked- I'll admit that I don't play in a SWF so there's always a small chance I'm wrong, but I hardly see how it could be possible.

    As for your comment about the activity HUD, you're completely right!

    ....If your teammates are actually doing generators when the hook happens. Or at all. And, it assumes that your teammates are making the same rational decisions as you. Even if everyone's skilled, it's imperfect information. Playing with Kindred and playing without is night and day, specifically for this reason.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389

    In any online game with a team, all you can control are your own actions. You can't make your team come for hooks or do gens. In overwatch I can't make a genji sit still so I can heal him. In Dota I can't force my support to put down useful wards. That's just part of dealing with humans with their own thoughts and agency. If we could make others behave exactly how we wanted the world would not be a very interesting place.

    Yeah it's imperfect information and acting on it intelligently is a tiny satisfying moment in the game. If the game automatically vacuumed killers into pallets for you then you'd be robbed of that little happiness. If huntress hatchets automatically veered into survivors when within .5m then her gameplay would less engaging. At a certain point forceful handholding serves to dumb down the game and make it overall less interesting. More bland. For similar reasons I think the lightburn changes were misguided.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,716

    Yes, but in those games, you at least know when your Genji is going off on his singleplayer adventure on the other side of the map and you know when your support is doing something stupid (or so I'd assume, I haven't played DOTA but I've played other MOBA games). So, in DBD, you can only control your own actions but - to a degree - you should know to do that.

    Kindred's information still has to be acted on intelligently, it's not handholding. It's just the information you need to make intelligent, informed decisions that aren't hinging almost entirely on guesswork. Seeing their teammates' auras won't make bad teammates actually bother doing a generator or going for a save, even if it were permanent and mapwide; only seeing auras when someone's hooked isn't going to change anyone's behaviour except the ones who'd be putting proper effort and intelligent thought into it.

  • Spectralfx
    Spectralfx Member Posts: 605

    My dear friend, as respectful as I want to be... I have to be blunt here.

    Hell no you sure as heck don't know in those games either!

    There's a reason why people get emotionnal in LoL when they get notified that their teamate feeded... it's because as they were tunneled visionned in their corner of the map... they failed to notice until it was too late.

    Game sense comes with experience and handing over information in the fashion you wish for will only serve to clutter the screen and push away new comers as it will make the game look even more complex.

    Less is more.

    Stop the hand-holding and expect people to learn through failures. That's what mentors, communities and content creators are there for.

    Minimalistic designs is how you make a good learning curve and offer longevity to a game.

    Dumb it down too much with freebies and it becomes forgettable, easy to master.

    So no, again respectfully, we don't need survivors to get yet, for the millionth time, another base kit ability.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 9,716

    Of course you know in those games? Taking Overwatch as our primary example, you can see your Genji through walls. Obviously information on that level can't be added to DBD, but in a general sense, you're basically aware of what your teammates are doing at relevant junctures.

    For the most part we've already been given that information through the survivor HUD, and the only real blank spot still left is the knowledge of who is going for a save. Neither the survivor HUD nor a hypothetical basekit Kindred count as handholding, dumbing down, or 'freebies', they're just giving players the tools they need to make decisions.

    I've always found this argument particularly interesting, honestly. I actually agree that players should be expected to utilise good game sense and decision making, and that you can't game-design away bad teammates; players will have to just react to having bad teammates and do their best on their own terms, while accepting that they're more likely to lose. All of that is absolutely golden, in theory, but for some reason people are suggesting that argument alongside an implication that players should be doing all of that while also flying blind.

    Like I said above, you can't make decisions without a basic level of information, and a basic level of information also won't help you unless you're making decisions. Getting this information won't take away any decision making or skill expression, it'll enable decision making and skill expression. Minimalist doesn't mean missing, there's a certain amount of info players should be expected to have in order to make decisions, in any game- otherwise they're just guessing.

  • yesplease
    yesplease Unconfirmed, Member Posts: 3

    I bring kindred Every. Single. Match. And in my opinion, if you can't play "with three perks", then get better at going without 1 perk.

  • Devil_hit11
    Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 9,513

    I would go step further and just make give global aura reading to survivors at all times. Empathy already does this but only when injured. Just make it work on healthy and injured. Kindred is limited to hooks only. I don't see why everyone BVHR is scared for solo survivor to just be at similar level to SWF.

    Do they think SWF is broken or something? They could always improve killers and balance around SWF. Vice versa, they could also globally weaken survivor if survivor is indeed too strong. I think survivor and killer as a whole is pretty balanced, but I think a lot of killer powers could be a bit more... challenging. You know, more satisfying to use. DBD goal should be to make survivor fun to play and killer fun to play. I imagine survivor's fun factor would skyrocket for soloq if they implemented aura reading for teammates.

    Killer could be very fun too in this environment if they put some effort and make every killer feel good to play vs SWF but this would be a more long-term goal.

  • DaddyMyers_Mori
    DaddyMyers_Mori Member Posts: 2,205

    Killer aura reading? Hell no. That effect is so strong. It's not just camping, everyone knows where killer goes. That's so strong.

    Survivor aura reading? Sure