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Am I the only killer who prefers old dead hard rather than sprint burst?
I just had a SWF game where they sat on gens and whenever I got near they just sprint bursted away to a safe loop. There's literally no counter to it. Dead hard was so easy to bait with just a camera flick or simply waiting it out. Am I the only one who thinks this? It saves you from getting hit (extending your chase time), makes the killer miss their lunge attack (from surprise) which gives survivors extra time to hold W, and gets survivors to a safe loop from a deadzone.
I'm not saying it needs a nerf, I was just curious on people's opinion on it.
Best Answers
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Ive always prefered DH over Sprint Burst since its much more interactive.
Just waiting for people to realize just how strong SB really is
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Old dead hard was the most powerful perk in the game, for both sides, bar none. It had the ability to extend a chase to the point that you can lose the game immediately if landed at a good time. Even if you only landed it 50% of the time, it could easily add 20+ seconds to a single chase, almost guaranteeing that the killer will lose 3 gens to the other survivors if they continue to do the chase.
Sprint burst is overrated and nowhere near as powerful as people think it is, just look at the math behind it. Lets assume there is an injured survivor 32 meters away from the killer and they immediately start running. Lets look at 2 scenarios, one WITH sprint burst, and one without.
WITHOUT Sprint burst:
Survivor starts running at 32 meters. Killer gains 0.6 meters of distance. They need to close a gap of 26 meters to land a hit. This means it will take them (excluding bloodlust because i can't find consistent information about how far a chase starts exactly). 43.3 seconds to down the survivor.
WITH Sprint burst:
Survivor starts running at 32 meters, but for 3 seconds, they run at 6 m/s instead of 4. This means they GAIN 1.4 meters of distance per second for those 3 seconds on the killer, meaning now the killer needs to close a gap of 26 + (1.4 x 3) = 30.2 meters of distance. Gaining 0.6 per second, this takes the killer 50.3 seconds for the killer to catch the survivor.
The strength of sprint burst is not in the "hold w" because it adds 7 seconds to the chase. Where it is strong is when survivors use it to hang around a dead zone, then during those 3 seconds, they run to a safer area. Which doesn't really add a huge amount to the chase, all it does is make the chase more standard rather than free as it would be in a dead zone. Additionally, because this chase extension happens RIGHT at the start of a chase, the killer can make a more informed and useful decision to continue the chase or to abandon and go after someone else. It is also easier to bait once you know the survivor has it than dead hard is. Sure, you can 99 the sprint burst, but then you can't do ANYTHING, a gen, stop and heal a survivor, you can't even fall from a high place, or you aren't 99'ing it anymore.
Lithe is actually better than sprint burst, because it has nearly the same effect, slightly less distance because of the animation. But, it puts a structure between you and the killer, meaning you probably end up gaining as much or more distance than sprint burst, and it lets you do some of the same things as sprint burst and hang out in dead zones as long as there is some window or something nearby to activate it. Which even on edges of the map isn't hard with things like z-walls.
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I think Dead Hard—especially pre-6.1-nerf—outclassed Sprint Burst. But I mean I kind of figured once Dead Hard was nerfed killer mains would begin complaining about other exhaustion perks.
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The period before old dead hard got changed was by far the hardest killer has ever been in this game. I was at the height of my killer main phase when old dead hard was out in full force. Going against a four man SWF where everyone had dead hard and used it properly was the most unpleasant thing i've ever experienced in this game. People who started playing killer after it got changed have no idea. It's part of the reason why I can't take complaints about how "hard' killer is seriously.
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You mentioned what is probably the strongest part about the perk as if its nothing.
"Where it is strong is when survivors use it to hang around a dead zone, then during those 3 seconds, they run to a safer area. Which doesn't really add a huge amount to the chase, all it does is make the chase more standard rather than free as it would be in a dead zone."
A chase in a deadzone is a death sentence against a good chunk of killers. Sprint Burst turns a death sentence into an actual chase and depending on the map that can be much more than DH.
Another thing is regardless of where its used, SB almost always guarantees you value. The only time DH ever guaranteed value, was before the rework.
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Ever since people started using exhaustion perks other than DH, I've lost significantly more matches. Now they actually get value out of their perks instead of wasting a slot trying to be the next [favorite survivor main content creator] and going down in five seconds.
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Both require you to just spend time holding W. So both are boring.
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I don't miss Dead Hard in the slightest. Give me Sprint Burst and Lithe any time of the day. Having to bait out Dead Hard for every survivor was a drag, especially when the whole team would have Dead Hard equipped.
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If you think that SB is less counterable than DH, you must not be in a super high elo. People would just not fall for the bait, its not that hard to tell the difference between a bait and a swing. Smart survivors would just hold the dh and run around pallets knowing theres nothing you can do.
SB just provides a safety net and possible crazy chase value when done well. if you get caught off guard on a gen, SB to a loop. Cant get tunneled off hook bc SB gets you away, that kind if thing. It only adds 7 seconds of chasetime directly, 12 if a 110% killer. All it does it guarantee you reach a loop after a use. Outside of the first activation, you need walk in chase, purposefully losing distance for 40s worth of time just to proc it again.
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Old dead hard was worse. Apart from making distance to a loop, it could also be used to get into a better position for a flashlight save or dodge Trapper’s traps/projectiles
SB is harder to manage and survivor is not invulnerable while the speed boost is up
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If anything it was always just boring to play around as killer.
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yeah sorry man that came across worse than I meant. It was more a "lol those dh users must suck" than a "wow u must suck if you think that" sorry about that.
Yeah obviously you arent supposed to swing at the sight of them. one of the main reasons it was unhealthy, it removed lunging from the game is the surv had any semblance of reaction time. After all, a max lunge is 0.8s, vg human reaction time is 0.25s. DH lasts 0.5s.
0.8 - (0.25+0.5)=0.05s to swing through a dh. And only at MAXIMUM lunge range. Granted reaction time differs, but if they wait just a moment longer and focus any lunge outside of one lasting 0.25 seconds from start to hit will be DH-ed. Makes for unfun gameplay.
Also, how was dh counterable at pallets? You can lunge or they DH, or at the very least its not worth the risk. You cant wait it out or they get the pallet. And baiting relies on their stupidity, any good survivor would just not fall for it. In theory, you could swing and hit them during that buffer period where endurance is gone and they cant drop the pallet. But not only does that require insane precision, but is latency reliant. If you are at a range where you need to lunge to land in the buffer, you need to calculate for the dh timer, the distance, when to start lunging, then hope you get there before they drop. If you were just right in front of them then its easy muscle memory, but if you are that close then you would have just hit them before and dh would be a non issue.
- The main counter to dh, waiting it out, couldnt be done at pallets.
- Lunging is a core mechanic of killer gameplay that was removed by survivors having dh+reaction time. Perks shouldnt completely deny core gameplay mechanics.
- Baiting is unreliable as a mindgame and only works if the survivor is stupid. Flicking your camera isnt a counter, its a alst ditch hope that it'll work. Lunging has a sound cue and visual cue when it starts. If the survivor just waited to see your weapon move rather than your head, then baiting was useless.
- The buffer period was latency reliant, extremely short and way too inconsistent to be called a counter. If that period lasted about 2 seconds rather than like 0.2, then dead hard would have been balanced with ample amounts of counterplay. But it didnt, therefore it wasnt.
Waiting didnt work. Baiting didnt work. Lunging didnt work. Buffer period was unreasonably inconsistent. What could most killer realistically do other than eat the pallet and be on their way? You could just not chase the dh user, but since like 2-3/4 always had it you had to deal with it. You have to commit to someone eventually, at which point you either tunnel out the non dh users or eat dh all game bc you dont tunnel. There was no real counters to the perk at pallets, it was effectively og dh just with less room for error.
I actually loved fighting dh outside of pallets though. The mindgames and predictions made for interesting gameplay in deadzones and vaults. But in true bhvr fashion they didnt take community feedback and instead made it worthless.
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I mean yeah, you could run vigil and make using sb in chase easier. But for one, 28 seconds is still a lot of time to walk mid chase. And two, vigil is not worth using over some other perk. Why use vigil when you could bring deliverance, or adrenaline, or reassurance etc etc etc? Its very outclassed by those perks anyway, and skilled players dont need vigil to use sb.
Most often, people charge sb by walking after a pallet stun/drop or safe vault, or by standing still when they've chained to another loop. If they've stunned you, they probably outplayed you in some way. if their in a position to vault safely consistently, they've been looping well. Im not gonna say chaining loops is skillful on its own, but it at least shows a good understanding of pathing. All of these ways to charge SB involve some form of skill to acquire, whether its an outplay (360 into a vault, sick vacuum, pallet fake etc) or just making distance something skillful had to happen. If someone has enough time to walk for 28 seconds mid chase, then they've been looping well. Especially if they dont have vigil.
Because good SB users dont walk around to map to save it, it can be inconsistent how much they need to walk to get sb back. If they were on a gen for 20 seconds before they got found, its 20. If they got found 60 seconds late then they get the first proc, but they need to walk for 40 seconds to use it again. And if they got found 39 seconds in, they get a 99ed SB to choose if they want to use it now or save it.
- If they get found before the cooldown ends, getting it back is easier. But, the start of the chase is harder because you dont have that safety net to fall back on. you might get hit before you reach a loop, or have to use a pallet to avoid it.
- If they get found after, they get an easier start to the chase but a harder chase overall. Chasing without an ex perk is a big disadvantage, and now you need to walk for 40 seconds to use one. If the chase lasts long enough to get 40 seconds of walking, you have to have been looping like hell. Hence, mid chase SB is skilled bc chase is skilled.
- The scenario of being found right as your SB gets to 99% is so niche and rare its not even worth talking about. Yeah, its really powerful when it happens but it never does.
Heres the math of how much time an SB buys against non mobile killers.
SB moves at 6m/s. Killers go at either 4.6 or 4.4. sb lasts 3 seconds.
(6 - 4.6)3 = 4.2m of distance gained. 4.2/0.6= 7 seconds to regain those 4.2m.
(6- 4.4)3 = 4.8m of distance gained. 4.8/0.4= 12 seconds to regain those 4.8m.
If the survivor reaches a loop within those 7/12 seconds, then the chase is extended further. The initial proc of SB essentially means that you get to start the chase as if you were already at a loop. If ex isnt up yet, then for value you need to lose distance on purpose. And once you have SB back and 99ed as a reward for walking for however long, you can guarantee you reach one more loop.
The counter to SB is to just down them before exhaustion ends. The initial proc guarantees they reach a loop, so just loop them. If you think they'll get sb back just get the pallet down and go. In all the time they need to walk you are for sure gonna hit them once if you arent playing an m1 killer. And if you are, its a killer balance issue that they cant hit someone when they are actively losing distance. And if you dont hit them in all that time as a higher tier killer, they are just better and outplayed you really well.
So essentially, sprint burst acts a safety net so you start off chases with a loop at the ready. You are rewarding for actively losing distance with the power to reach another loop when you need to. it takes a lot of walking to recharge, and if you get it recharged then you have been looping well enough that you've had those opportunities.
SB is probably the best designed perk in the game. But if you prefer the dh meta, rip bc i dont think its ever coming back lol.
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Answers
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Why?
Sprint Burst meta teaches Killer to not have tunnel vision focus on one survivor only. To spread pressure and go somewhere else if the distance to catch up is far already and once you find the same survivor again, they may not have SB again
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Tunnel vision? I'm talking about four survivors using sprint burst to run away from GENERATORS they were working on to avoid hits and force a decision from the killer to either chase them or look for another survivor that will do the exact same. Also it doesn't teach killers anything about tunnel vision, it's not difficult to catch up. With Quentin's perk that make exhaustion dissapear sooner you can bet the survivor will have Sprint Burst again when you see them.
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Sprint Burst and Quentin's perk about exhaustion combined are just a pain...
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Never did I say I was a killer main but pop off I guess. I was against the dead hard change because, as I said, I liked it more than Sprint Burst.
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Why? It was so much tougher to deal with than survivors Sprint Bursting away.
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So was I? Don't assume stuff like that. Everyone had it so it was pretty easy to bait even in a four man SWF. The most unpleasant thing was Decisive Strike in my opinion because when people had it they would constantly body block.
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I played a lot of survivor so I translated my timing onto other players or how I got baited and it just worked.
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Dead hard was really easy to bait though. Sprint Burst is guaranteed to work but dead hard can just be a waste of a perk slot if you go against a experienced killer that assumes everyone has it and knows how to bait it. Survivors staring back at you was an obvious sign they had it.
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Dead hard was not easy to bait. It created stupid scenarios where you are close enough to hit the survivor, and you both do this stupid dance where the big hulking mean killer is afraid to swing. It also made it almost impossible to lunge, because you could e on reaction to the lunge. Meaning the distance to hit became 2 meters instead of 6 meters, which gaining 0.6 meters of distance, would extend every single chase by 2.4 seconds at minimum, but then you had to delay a second or 2 to do this stupid dance. Which means that it would delay chases nearly as much as sprint burst is doing just by existing.
Because of this extra free distance and lunging being impossible, it allowed survivors to get to pallets and windows much easier, because you couldn't lunge so they had more chances to use it. Basically NOT using it, was nearly as powerful as using it.
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Post edited by mikewelk on0
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Thanks for all the information, it's genuinely interesting. I mained Blight at the time so I just needed to rush past them to bait it for a free down on the next rush. This is exactly why I wanted other people's experiences because it helps me understand what was wrong with it instead of just assuming people couldn't bait it properly like I could. Having numbers display the differences between thee two perks is really informative. People assuming I never played during that time or that I begged for it to be nerfed just to want it back really aren't helping. Thank you. :)
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And hearin lies the problem. Basically nurse and blight didn't care anyway. These 2 killers should basically be ignored when looking at balance concerns affecting killers as a whole because they don't play by the same rules as everyone else.
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Idk I have never before seen a killer say they prefer old Dead Hard to Sprint Burst. Maybe if you mostly play Blight or Nurse I can see Sprint Burst as the more frustrating perk. But even then…
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I play Wesker now since the dead hard nerf, used to play Blight. If they didn't have sprint burst, I would have an easy viruelent bound hit especially if they are in a deadzone. It is frustrating.
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Well you could argue that the following killers weren't affected substantially as well: Huntress (can easily hold a hatchet out in the open until the survivor gets scared), Nemesis (could hold his tentacle for as long as he wants to), Wraith (could use his bell to bait swinging), Doctor (shock therapy prevents dead hard use), Deathslinger (his ability prevents dead hard use), Legion (can put you in deep wound to prevent dead hard use), and Twins (you can easily bait it with Victor).
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Absolutely, because now youre turning an already pretty versatile perk into something thats even MORE versatile.
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You already said you’re not a killer main so I guess we can expect the incompetence here. Reality is a good survivor wasnt easy to bait.
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I play both equally...? Stop assuming, it's embarassing. They were super easy to bait for me personally so stop saying I'm incompetent if you couldn't do it. World does not revolve around you and your assumptions.
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Yeah that's actually true. As Wesker I could easily throw them into a wall and, since they are in a deadzone, it's a free down. Or Micheal can't stalk for as long as he could've since they go behind cover on a loop from a deadzone. Or Huntress can't guarantee a hatchet hit when it would be possible to get a hit and possibly a knock in a deadzone. Or Hag can't get a hit after teleporting to a trap because the survivor just runs away. Or Trickster can't utilize his knives to secure a hit and possibly a down. Or Deathslinger can't use his ability to reel them in a corner and possibly get a down. Or Plague can't throw up on you and possibly get a down. There's too many examples.
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Again with your incompetence. Playing against bad survivors using good perks in a bad way doesn’t make the perk bad or worse than any other. Your opinions are based on what ? Going against mediocre survivors
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Constantly assuming. I go against big streamers. How do you want me to prove it lmao? If you have nothing intelligent to say get out of here.
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You said it in your op. You missed hits on sprint burst then say it’s easy to bait dead hard. Is there any more incompetence then that ?
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Do you expect Sprint Burst on every survivor? Or are you Mr Know It All Rob?
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it still works against them because it put their power on cooldown. Your analytic on both perks is brilliant. I understand these analytic which is why I still use DH.in all honesty, i think that survivor get too much of speed boost from health-states and the killer have too high cooldown on their attacks. M1 basic killer should not be this badly disadvantage towards second-chance mechanics. Second chance should help the survivor. Not auto-win the game for them.
I hope BVHR continues to lower speed of health-states and further decreases attack cooldown of basic m1 killers while lowering impact of STBFL as a perk for m1 killers. I think a good target for them is to take 1.25 second speed boost and 2.25 second hit recovery with 2% on STBFL instead of 5% per stack.
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The counter is Fear Monger.
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It's not a good counter and makes sprint burst incredibly easy to 99
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Then combine it with Blood Echo
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Again with the assuming, I didn't ask the question to have my mmr analysed. Don't say 'MUST' because it's not truthful. I could bait dead hard out of any survivor, it's really not crazy hard if you understand how to do it properly. You aren't meant to swing at the sight of them and instead get up close and personal and then you bait. Running around pallets with dead hard can be countered: don't be desperate. Also Quentin has a perk to reduce that exhaustion to 28 seonds if I remember correctly.
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That takes up an entire perk slot and only really works for stealthy/low terror radius killers. Even if you do manage to catch a survivor off-guard, they can easily walk to be able to use it in chase and escape a dead zone.
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Why would I do that? I'm not going to run 2 subpar perks to counter a perk, even if I think SB is strong and annoying, which I do.
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Fear Monger + Blood Echo puts a damper on all exhaustion perks, not SB alone. These perks are not sub par in the slightest.
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No, they are both very bad perks, and I don't think all exhaustion needs to be dampered either, the only problematic exhaustion perk is sprint burst. Blood echo specifically is a terrible perk, and does nothing if no other survivors are injured when you hook someone. And if the survivors have half a brain cell and they are going to heal ASAP instead of waiting to heal, which they already probably are doing anyways depending on what killer you are playing, so like, 2 killers in the entire roster, or if they are resilience gamers.
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What? Sprint burst is probably the least problematic. What makes it problematic? i can see maybe the initial proc being argued as such. But it really just acts as a safety net to reach a loop if you get caught off guard. After that, you need to find enough opportunites to walk for 40 seconds mid chase which actively loses you distance. So if that happens, then you are a very good looper to get to walk that much.
Its the least problematic. Lithe provides a 99ed SB at all times, activates on vaults so it gets more distance bc the killre has to walk around. its super easy to use with a dummy low skill floor. except unlike SB, where the no skill players just use it to proc once and go loop (dont bother recharging), the no skill lithe users just have an eternal 99ed SB at all times with no drawbacks or changes to gameplay. Yeah, it activates on vaults but you are gonna vault to get distance even without it. So just play normally and you get max value, unlike SB.
I dont think lithe is op at all, im just saying its more problematic. Even though its barely problematic at all, Just in comparison to SB.
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