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Make Shadowborn baseline.

After starting to use it it's impossible to go back. The game feels so sluggish without it, people can literally disappear in your face because Killer FoV is so low. It nearly feels required at least in my opinion, because playing without it feels just... off.

Comments

  • MrMori
    MrMori Member Posts: 1,917
    edited June 2023

    Everyone who actually plays killer agrees on this one, but nothing ever changes. Sad, honestly.

    You guys remember that the "Last Survior" bonus FOV was under accessibility settings? FOV is accessibility. The reason Shadowborn is a popular perk is because it makes killer far more enjoyable to play. Swapping from a character with Shadowborn to without feels awful.

    The only thing that would be worse for the survivors if we got an FOV slider is FOV techs. But who cares about FOV techs? It only works against console killers and newer killers anyway.

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,379

    I do play killer and ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE. It's like sure - give basekit shadowborn, but in exchange return stretch res for survivors.

    That way it's also survivors that will see more then the game is designed to do. There will be no more mindgames, but at least it would be the same for both sides...

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,672

    Survivors don’t need a compensation buff for a killer FoV slider, because killers got zero compensation buffs for the Survivor HUD.

    It’s bad enough that we have a roadmap going out for the next year, and there’s zero announced killer-only things to look forward to. Killers should be able to get new features, without survivors getting something favorable for them.

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124

    because accessibility QOL that affects nothing about balance is equal to gaining an UNFAIR advantage with an extended 3rd person view.

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,379

    I was just showing how ridiculous it would be to add more FoV to killers in a same way by a same adjustment. It's just wrong. It ruins the game. If you need it, use the perk.

    It removes mindgames to too high degree. Read OP's 1st message - he doesn't want to get FOV-teched. That's basic part of game. Remove it and you can remove other things like survivor items "as a QoL change that affects nothing about balance "

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,672

    It doesn’t “ruin the game”. Shadowborn is very often shoved at the bottom of tier lists.

    And basekit Shadowborn certainly wouldn’t be anywhere near as game changing as the Survivor HUD is.

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,379

    Sure. For clown it's very meh perk. Take it on blight/oni/nurse/spirit.... The perk gives a lot of value.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,672

    The perk is often rated at the bottom of tier lists, regardless of which killer is using it.

  • ReikoMori
    ReikoMori Member Posts: 3,333

    More FoV on spirit a killer whose power literally makes her unable to see survivors isn't exactly giving her much value.

    Technically speaking visual terror radius and survivor hud "ruin the game" as they are recent additions that weren't originally intended to be in the game. Yet, because these things were needed they were added because accessibility is more important than perceived tactical advantage. FoV controls or just a better default FoV is needed for accessibility purposes and should be given the same level of respect.

    Mindgames aren't going to be harmed by this and if you think FoV tech equals mindgame then you don't understand what a mindgame actually is. That wouldn't be surprise as a lot of dbd players don't actually understand the concept of a mindgame and treat it as if it is a very hard binary tech skill when it isn't.

  • YOURFRIEND
    YOURFRIEND Member Posts: 3,389

    Going from playing another first person game to this one feels very disorienting and gives me a headache until I adjust. It's weird because I've never had this problem in any other game.

  • Frogsplosion
    Frogsplosion Member Posts: 273

    We need an FOV slider that goes up to 110 and I don't give a crap how many survivors cry about it.

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124

    except the difference between killer and survivor fov is the entire POV? one is first person and the other third. Survivors have plenty of situational awareness already which is why stretched res got nuked. But killers have such a choked fov its painful. And no FOV techs are not a core part of dbd, if it has tech in the name then its probably unintended. FOV techs only work on stupid killers anyways, with the exception of very fe that rely on being completely offscreen thus unaffected. So many killers are being forced to use shadowborn because killer fov makes them nauseous. They literally get sick without shadowborn, how is that okay for the sake of some barely usable techs?

    Also, theres a fine line between techs and gameplay features core to the game. Yes, killer fov is choked on purpose to allow for more plays to be made. But its not fair to prioritize niche plays over accessibility. Deaf people dont have to deal with no TR every game, why should those with motion sickness be forced to use 3 slots just to play the game? Its essentially the same situation, just that deafness is a more severe disability.

    • Deaf people cant hear TR --> All deaf people run spine chill --> BHVR takes notice and adds visual TR. Deaf people now get the 4th slot.
    • Motion sick people cant play killer --> All motion sick people use shadowborn --> BHVR completely ignores them.

    I mean, at least deaf people dont become physically ill without a terror radius. Its just not fair to hold FOV teching of all things over basic accessibility options. Fov would only meaningfully affect gameplay if it could become majorly extended, like 2 shadowborns. Nobody is asking for that, people just want a slider from current fov --> shadowborn fov. If such an increase really mattered that much, shadowborn wouldn't be an F tier perk. So, make an F-tier perk optional basekit so those with disability can play on equal footing. Yeah it'd be a sick QOL change for everyone else,but its like arguing that visual TR is op because it shows up before the heartbeat sounds begin. Its just such a miniscule difference then playing without it that the accessibility is so obviously more important.

    Whats affecting game balance more, shadowborn or killers being forced by their disabilities to use 3 perks only every game? Survivors using adrenaline have to survive a whole game with 3 perks and are rewarded massively. Except playing with only 3 perks with motion sickness rewards you with... the game that you paid money for being playable.

    FOV Techs vs Accessibility...

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,379

    Visual TR does 0 for people without disabilities. Sure the 1st implementation was too "forgiving" giving huge advantage against onryo. That's no longer the case. This is true accessibility feature.

    Survivor HUD was never meant to be accessibility feature. It's purely gap-closing feature to allow soloQ to be less miserable compared to SWF. There's nothing more to it. Any competent SWF get exactly 0 benefit from HUD, because same and more information is already shared between them as is.

    And FoV techs are mindgames. Especially when Oni runs at you with your ability and you just hide behind the barrel. If Oni sees you or expects you to do this, then you as a survivor just die. If you use shadowborn, you will see said survivor hiding behind the barrel - completely negating any option (AKA mindgame in this case) survivor could have done. Exactly the same thing would have been the case if stretched res returned to the game for survivors - it would be again possible to track killers above walls - negating anything they could do to get the hit.

    But it's not QoL. It's removal of mindgames. That's the problem. If FoV could be adjusted without actually showing more information to killer, then I would call it accessibility too... That's NOT the case.

    Interesting. I see many tryhard blights taking the perk - knowing the players to not suffer from headaches... I wonder why if it's so bad...

    FoV techs work against competitive players. If you can't pull it off, then that's your problem. The case I was talking about before with Oni (and same thing applies to blights) is prime example that happens way more often in high level play then in average-to-beginner level.

    Also it's not niche. Against competent blight/oni and to lesser degree nurse/spirit hiding mid-chase (for a very very short time) is one of very few options you have. FOV is paramount there.

    And your example with deaf people ignores the fact, that they get LESS benefit than healthy people - visual TR gives exactly 0 extra information. That's the biggest difference. Even if visual TR is nice, you will not get extra distance on killer or escape a hit because of it (well the 1st implementation was broken - but it was rightfully criticized and fixed).

    And again. You calling the perk F-tier doesn't make it so. The perk is very good on high mobility killers. You can call it F-tier on said clown where it only helps against 360's or window techs or any other animation-lock-fov-techs there are. That's not much. But on mobility killers, it's quite often difference between hit and miss.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,672

    If we're going to be picky, visual TR also helps streamers and SWFs. Some survivors are either talking, or listening to other people talk, and that noise can block survivors from hearing faint terror radius noises. This is fine though, because it's an accessibility change, and accessibility changes are allowed to affect game balance, because the accessibility is more important than the game balance.

    I don't care if you see some people use the perk. It's still very often listed at the bottom of tier lists, and as multiple people have said before, accessibility changes are allowed to affect game balance.

  • Orthane
    Orthane Member Posts: 618

    Heartbeat visualizer is 100% a HUGE advantage for survivors, that's not even debatable.

  • Alen_Starkly
    Alen_Starkly Member Posts: 1,274

    I agree that FOV needs to be higher by default. Not for me personally, 'cause I'm lucky that I have no problems with the default killer FOV. But I see so many people have to run Shadowborn because otherwise they get headaches and/or nausea by motion sickness.

    I too am a bit worried that survivors might lose some strats because of it, I admit. But wouldn't it be better if everyone could play killer without having to use Shadowborn for health purposes? Also, try to find people who think Shadowborn is a good perk... I don't think you'll find many.

  • Emeal
    Emeal Member Posts: 6,625

    Im sure some survivors would say, they need that too or they get dizzy and sick.

  • HugTechLover
    HugTechLover Member Posts: 2,482

    A removal of mind games? You mean FOV techs won’t work as well anymore? Get over yourself dude. “Not a QOL”. It’s the DEFINITION of a QOL improvement.

  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,379

    Definition of QoL is most definitely autobuy feature in bloodweb. There's 0 possible way how this would actually directly influence the game. Wider FoV is definitely NOT QOL under any circumstance. You could argue accessibility (one of reasons for shadowborn's existance), but that's it.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,672

    According to BHVR, QoL is allowed to directly influence the game. Here's the quote, where BHVR calls the Survivor HUD a QoL.......


    image.png


  • Gandor
    Gandor Member Posts: 4,379
    edited June 2023

    Yes I do remember. That indeed didn't look like QoL to me. More like a balance change to even a little the information level between SWF and soloQ

  • nars
    nars Member Posts: 1,124
    • FOV techs are mindgames. Stealthing was a bad example though, and hiding behind a slightly taller object would completely negate this. Besides inthat scenario, theres absolutely more the survivor could have done. Run around the object so oni cant swing, 360 him so he misses. the 360 would work too, considering the limjted turn rate and massive speed hes going at. Happens all the time.
    • That same information is already in the game, by just turning your camera the slightest bit. Blights wouldnt even need the extra FOV because a good blight hard-locks where the survivor is inside their head and flicks immediately. Same with nurse. And an oni is a special case, not really having to flick bc most of his hits the survivor is either right in front of him are just turned a corner. In both cases, fov doesnt change anything.
    • Blights use it because it feels good to use on blight. People play blight for the speed its fun to go fast. Shadowborn makes a speed based killer feel faster. And if you are that good on blight, where you are bringing shadowborn every game unironically, then you'd be stomping without it. It only helps you not get disoriented when you do a slam, ever so slightly helping you see where the survivor is so you can flick on them. 360s only work on blight if you make him swing to the way, or abuse his limited lunge angle. In both scenarios shadowborn changes nothing. Plus good blights dont use the full lunge anyways, the initial hitbox is wider and more forgiving so they just wait til their super close.
    • Yeah visual TR doesnt do much for healthy players you are correct there. But the difference again is that deaf people weren't hard locked from playing without spine chill. It was a lot harder, but it wasn't making them feel sickly. And if it did, I'd imagine that the demand for visual TR would be higher even if it provided some benefit to healthy survivors. People wont get much extra info than they'd already ahve without it as a hearing person. The same applies to the FOV. Someone isnt gonna get 360d if they just dont swing to begin with, and just wait until their in their crosshairs. OR better yet, just flick right as they even try 360ing. both result in a hit. FOV is only a factor in the first scenario, where it just makes the second scenario happen quicker. It just makes the more skillful thing happen more easily, it doesnt make something that wouldn't have happened happen outright. The player was gonna get hit either way. 360s that work are typically just clever abuses of aim dressing, which wouldn't change based on FOV. So 360s that work would still work just fine and just as often. Window techs as well, a good killer is gonna look left and right really fast. and if they dont see you, then their gonna look behind them and see you. And immediately swing and hit you. Or worse, the killer will feel your collision and just swing instantly. Not gonna work against a good killer, unless you manage to 360 them into the vault after. Which at that point isnt even a window tech its just a 360. Which I've already explained would still be ineffective against good killers, unless they do swing and aim dressing takes over (which isnt affected by fov). The only other FOV tech I can really think of off the top of my head is crouching right in front of the killer, so they dont see you. This is barely ever useful, only really good to sneak up on a face camper or something. Which is getting nerfed anyways. FOV techs actually dont work that well, even against good players. And even if they did they aren't core to DBD and shouldn't be held above players having to use 3 perks jus to play killer. and since all 4 perk slots are core to the game, and these rarely usable techs aren't, we should prioritize accesibility.
    • No, its not. Blight has a limited turn angle and realistically can only be 360d if he misses a swing, something good blights dont do by accident. bumping something instantly makes you face away from the survivor, and you have to flick back quickly if you want the hit. Its only ever really impactful if you are trying to 360 him during a bump, something that rarely comes into play and works even less bc you can just instaswing right when their in front of you. Nurse is a little different though. As a completely flick reliant killer nuse benefits quite a bit from shadowborns addition. But good nurses are gonna flick you either way so the difference is negligible. Wesker works similarly to blight, except being way easier to 360 bc he can't lunge when hes not perfectly accurate and instead has to correct with his second dash. Not changes by FOV at all, he will still flick you fi hes gloing to and he wont if he wont. Theres really never a situation where hes so close that extra fov is meaningful to landing a hit.

    but in the end its your choice.

    image.png

    otz's perk tierlist

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 5,672

    It's still the definition this game uses, according to BHVR.

  • Göch
    Göch Member Posts: 113

    "After starting to use it it's impossible to go back"

    At least u're honest, compared to the rest that tries to play it off as an "accessibility option".

  • HugTechLover
    HugTechLover Member Posts: 2,482

    What does that matter? Yes, I can play without it because I want to utilize all 4 perk slots. But I shouldn’t have to chose between comfortable FOV or a good loadout.