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This kind of slugging shouldn't be possible
Comments
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BHVR can change that though. They can make something that makes the killer have to decide to hook or not. Makes it a risk to leave the survivor slugged. They clearly agree because they did try but they did the stupid auto mori crap that isn't needed. They took a good idea and ruined it.
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"No you don't win like that"
Who are you to decide how people win? Yes you do win like that, that's part of the game.
People can choose how they play as long as it follows the guidelines set up by the devs and the game.
Bleedouts are perfectly within those bounds.
When you become a dev or make your own game you can decide how people get to play. As of now you don't and neither does any other entitled player.
Wanting it changed and not liking it is fine, saying people aren't allowed to play that way is different and not true.
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That didn't happen in my case, did it? Which is why if you've been reading my replies here I have continuously asked for a CONDITIONAL way for survivors to get out of a needless slugging situation. The main condition would have to be the whole team is downed. If the killer refuses to hook a single survivor in that situation then they deserved to be punished for it. As you can see from the screenshot I provided above in response to you the killer had every opportunity to hook me and refused to do so. They should be punished for that.
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And what happens if all the survivors left in the game, have purposely placed themselves in situations where the killer can't hook them? Because that is what kept happening in the mori PTB.
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Its a part of the game I will continue to criticize and give my opinion on how wrong it is to be a part of the game. I don't get to decide anything on this game, but I do get to provide my feedback and talk about parts of the game that I believe should be changed for the better. That is not entitlement. That is a paying customer nearing 3000 hours played who spends money on this game speaking my mind on it. If that bothers you, stop reading my posts and saying the same thing over and over again.
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This is a non argument. You're using the rare occasion of toxic swf teams who are blatantly griefing a killer and refusing objectives to say nothing should be done about it. You're also ignoring the fact that I never once said remove the bleedout so even if a team did do this, they would still eventually bleed out. I'm not asking for infinite recovery without consequence here. Survivors would still have to fully recover and escape the situation before a full bleed out. So no, your excuse is not a justifiable reason to ignore this.
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It is entitled to try and dictate how others should play just because you don't like it, that why I said saying they're "not allowed" or "that's not how you win" is different. You're not going to get productive discourse with that mindset/attitude.
Not to mention, those statements are also false. You are allowed and that is a way to win, but you want it changed to be better.
Wanting it changed is fine.
However, basekit getting up from he floor (UB) has been shown to be abusable and not work, so we'd need different solutions.
Just to throw some suggestions out there I'll put the following.
Small and larger things we can do to improve or eliminate slugging, hopefully without breaking game balance like basekit UB did in the test:
- Give killers a buff or reward for hooking survivors that greatly outweighs slugging, the killer now has no reason to slug over hooking. Can be coupled with a system to reward different hooks or a hook/death system rework to also disincentivize tunneling.
- Make hooks not despawn. Why is this even still a thing?
- fix hook RNG so that we no longer have "hook dead zones" where you physically can't hook the survivors.
- If, and only if, you fix hook spawn, remove saboing, and remove hooks breaking, you can debuff the killer for each survivor left on the floor for over 15 seconds with a speed penalty and/or disabling their power to account for killers like Nurse, who don't care about their movement speed.
- Remove hatch, the need to slug the last 2 survivors to avoid losing a kill to RNG is gone. Slugging is way less incentivized than before.
- Remove bleedout timer, survivors can be on the floor indefinitely. Killer needs to hook or mori to win. Remove hook sabo to avoid abuse by survivors. To avoid abuse by the killer to BM, we can also use suggestion #4, and/or once all remaining survivors are down for over 30 seconds they will be sacrificed. Makes slugging for kills way harder since you cant slug someone long enough for them to die unless you get everyone all at once and you might also be debuffed.
There are other solutions to test that are not buffing the survivors with basekit abilities that will break the game balance since they will abuse anything they can as the past has shown multiple times. If you really want to stick to punishing killers, I suppose #4 and/or #6 would be the best bet from what I offered.
You can't just debuff killers alone, as there are different reasons why someone slugs, some of which are out of the killers control.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
So anyway, wanting a solution to unnecessary and toxic slugging is not entitlement. Its seen as entitlement by those who think this kind of playstyle is Ok, or do it themselves. It is not Ok. It should not be a possibility as I stated in the title of this thread. Blatantly leaving the entire survivor team on the ground and refusing to hook them is a situation that should never happen for the entirety of the bleedout timer.
So here is one solution I have come up with that I think would solve the problem pretty fast. Since I don't think the situation of entire team slugging should exist and that the killer should be punished for doing it, I think if a killer slugs the entire team and leaves them all on the ground for more than a minute then the entity kills the killer and the survivor team wins. The entity would basically become angry with the killer for refusing it sacrifices. It would be the same thing as when survivors don't make it out of the exit gate in time before the end game collapse timer runs out. If the killer knows they'll lose in a humiliating way, they won't do this if they care at all about getting "kills" by any means. The killer gets punished and the survivors get rewarded by the entity by having a hatch spawn where the killer died so they all can escape. I think thats a creative and fun way to deal with the problem if we don't have full recovery basekit options.
"But what if the whole team goes to a place where the killer can't hook anyone?"
Then knock them all down and pick them up. The 1 minute timer would reset after each pickup so if the survivor insist on going back to the same spot after each time they wiggle off then they will bleedout anyway and the killer won't risk dying to the entity for refusing to at least try to hook them. The killer's objective goals should be always actively trying to eliminate survivors, preferably by hooks, without resorting to full team slugging that wastes everyone's time.
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A basekit unbreakable isn't whats needed to fix this because that then punishes killers who have to do this due to boil over tactics or survivors crawling to a location where there are 0 hooks nearby.
On the flip side the finisher mori thing they tried that ended the game once all survivors were in the dying state also doesn't work because it then limits the use of unbreakable, flipflop, boon exponential plays.
What would help this is to speed up bleed out once all survivors are in the dying state. For example once all 4 survivors are in the dying state the bleed out time goes from 4 minutes to just 1 minutes. This would still allow for unbreakable plays (and of course bring bleed out back to 4 mins for anyone left on the floor) but would allow both killers and survivors to end the game faster in situations like this or situations where the survivors are forcing this due to no hooks or boil over plays.
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Yeah as far as I'm aware mmr and emblem/rating systems are completely seperate things. Also it isn't treated as a 1v4 situation, the game considers the match to be 4 1v1's. So my best educated guess would be that the game calculates your mmr award based on the end result for the survivor. Alive, dead or hatch, we already know hatch returns a null result to mmr and whether you are bleed out or hooked 3 times or even just once doesn't matter, survivor is either dead or alive.
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how would unbreakable help you in this situation when two survivors are alive? The killer is purposely being toxic and slugging you to extend the game. The finisher mori would fix killer being toxic to survivors. Unless they majorly make bleed out more of threat for survivor, I do not understand why survivor would be getting unbreakable to their kit.
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The devs never said bleed outs were considered kills and game is not counting bleed outs as kills, in fact it's DEDUCTING them from the kill count. It can logically be seen that bleed outs are not considered kills.
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It’s not a rare occasion. I very often encounter survivors that will do this out of spite. It doesn’t even require any special perks or items sometimes. It just requires survivors to run to certain spots, where there aren’t any hooks in range.
If you want killers to be punished if they don’t hook survivors, then there needs to be more reliable ways for killers to hook survivors. We shouldn’t have these situations where the best play is letting someone bleed out, just because a survivor is trying to avoid getting hooked out of spite.
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DbD has a history of inconsistencies and not always following logical conclusions. It doesn't matter that the devs never said that bleedouts were kills as far as MMR is concerned. The game's code is constantly being datamined for information and that includes how MMR works. The devs can say or not say whatever they want, the game's code doesn't care. If MMR is coded to count bleedout as kills (which it is), then that is what matters, not what anyone "says", or worse, "feels".
Oh, btw, do try and edit the wiki's MMR page, since you believe "anyone can edit" it, you'll see for yourself how that statement absolutely doesn't hold true for that wiki. Unless editors provide the wiki admins with solid proof, "anyone's" edits are reverted. The wiki mods are incredibly vigilant about that stuff.
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No kill/escape should be guaranteed . Isn't that why DS and Off the Record are de-activated in end game? SO as not to be a guaranteed escape? Why should the killer be able to guarantee 4k by slugging indefinitely one survivor?
Basekit UB should come for the last survivors. Maybe killers won't play as greedy if there's a timer. Get your guaranteed 3k and if you're lucky you get 4k. Don't force it.
Slugging throughout the rest of the game will still be a strategy.
You don't need a guaranteed 4k.
Bring basekit UB for 2 last survivors, there I said it.
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If that is implemented, then the last two survivors might try as hard as possible to get knocked down in a place where the killer can’t hook them.
It would be better if the game officially considered 3k and 4k to be the same thing. The game should consider a 3k and 4k to both be be merciless, allow 3k to be good enough for adepts, allow 3k to be good enough for iri emblems, award the same BPs for 3k and 4k, and award the same MMR increases for 3k and 4k.
But the game can’t constantly advertise a 4k as “winning more” than a 3k, then expect killlers to be content with 3ks
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I agree with you that 3k should allow for adepts, I have no disagreement there.
The first point seems an issue with SWF. I find it hard to believe when survivors are random they'd do something like that (imo there's no point). They usually just wanna escape. I mean you could just also make another change and if Killer knocks the same survivor 3 times when only 2 are left he just bleeds out instantly. Or simply limit it to 2 times.
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Solo survivors sometimes do this too, out of spite. Even if the survivors know they are going to lose, some of them will purposely place themselves in situations where they can’t be hooked, so the killer doesn’t get the full sacrifice bonus. And sometimes if you try to carry them to a hook anyway, they’ll wiggle off, then immediately run right back to the spot where they can’t be hooked, again, out of spite.
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Ok, what about killers who slug you out of spite then? How should that be handled?
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if a survivor is slugged for too long, teleport them to a hook, and remove that survivor’s ability to attempt self unhooks.
That way, you can fix the slugging problem without nerfing killers in the process.
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I prefer basekit UB to be honest when 2 are left than your idea. Your idea still favors the killer and gives him ample time to look for the 4th survivor. Should not be like that. Being greedy should come with a risk. Killer just saves time by not hooking the survivor, now imagine killer defending his slug when survivors are trying to get up a teammate who's recovered. No thanks. LOL, remove survivors ability to self unhook, are you serious? (what if they have Deliverance). Are you actually asking for a killer buff here? I thought you were more concerned about toxicity.
I just rather argue for slugging for the 4k not being such a big thing anymore. If DS and Off the Record get de-activated at end game because it's a guaranteed escape (I know, I'm repeating myself here), slugging when 2 are left should also be less of a guaranteed 4k-3k. Take your 3k or settle at 2k if you play too greedy. End of story.
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There's a difference between getting a guaranteed kill/escape because of a perk just because you hit end game and earning a kill/escape through your own work.
The killer earned that kill by getting down to 1-2 survivor before the gens got done. They just don't wanted to get their kill cheated out by hatch RNG, which iirc the devs stated mainly exist so the last survivor has a reason to keep playing and doesn't just hide indefinitely. It's literally an anti-spite/selfish mechanic that rewards the person they're trying to prevent from being spiteful/selfish by cheating out the person who earned their "point" (kill). Then they get a 2nd chance to cheat out because the gates get powered lol.
Nothing like that exist for killer and you want to add a 3rd for survivor. I say no. I don't even think we should have the 1st.
Remove hatch and make the last 2 situation not a potential kill robbery x2 if you decide to go down to 1and slugging amounts in that situation would drop through the floor.
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Basekit UB would be a giant nerf to killers, because if the 3rd survivor purposely places themselves in a situation where the killer can’t hook them, they get rewarded by being able to self pickup.
Anti-slugging mechanics are only good if survivors can’t abuse them by purposely placing themselves in situations where they can’t be hooked.
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It's not through your own work when bleedout timer is 4 mins. You have 4 whole mins to catch the last survivor when the map has no longer resources and your teammate is useless lying on the floor. Even the worst killer player can get a down that way, don't exagerrate. It's a gamemechanic/exploit that allows you to chill at that point. The survivor is slugged, you have time to get your 4k, just not indefinitely. You can also just go back and reslug them if you're that greedy for the 4k.
If i make it to end game then with my 3 teammates then I also earned my escape, so DS and Off the Record should not de-activate. I played perfectly until that point, why do I have to be short of a perk when the game continues?
Why should I get cheated out of deserved win if I played perfectly 95% of the match but misstep (or a teammate makes a mistake) and I end up dying. That's also RNG.
If I cannot chill at any point in the game as a survivor, Killer should not be able to either. He should not be guaranteed anything. That's only fair.
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Bro, just hook him. Most of the time you can hook them. If you're so worried just bring the offering to make hooks spawn closer or bring a Mori. As it is now, it's not fair atm that killer can slug a survivor for an indefinite amount of time (4 mins is a lot of time in DBD) so he can get the last guy. Killers freak out when a chase takes a bit too long, 4min of chill time for the killer to look for the other survivor is a lot of time.
A killer who wants to get a 4k hardly cares about wasting time (see 3 gen killers at their peak slowing games immensely), please don't make any more excuses. You just don't want 4k denied if you get too greedy. The thing is that killers who wanna try hard can bring anything busted. Putrid Oak tree is an offering to counter the thing you're worried about, the Mori is even better because you don't even have to carry the survivor to a hook anyway if he already has 2 hooks.
Survivors unless in a SWF cannot co-ordinate to bring the stuff that counter killer strategies. Killers have more control that survivors (again SWF is the exception).
Killer wasting too much time chasing a survivor is a mistake, I don't understand why it should not be a non-factor when 2 are left. It's also a big reward for the killer to have 4 mins to do whatever he wants to find the other survivor. But you're used to it, that's why it does not look like a huge deal to you. The thing is that atm the freedom the killer has when 2 are left is not fair and it should involve more risk for such a strategy. Strategies that are low risk high reward are broken (and slugging for the 4k is high reward and low risk since it's very hard for both of them to escape). It should be a high risk higher reward strategy for someone who is really intend on winng. 3k is a win already.
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What does the timer amount have to do with anything in regards to your own work? It could be 10 minuets and the fact of the matter is you still had to chase and down that person and you have to find the next one. It's not an exploit. The last survivor can hid in a corner or locker jump for 4 minuets and still escape through hatch. What does that have to do with "chilling". How stressful it is is irrelevant.
You might have to explain that point a little more. It's not making sense.
You didn't earn your escape just because you existed in the match until endgame, maybe by hiding in a corner. You still need to survivor until you get out. Those perks make it guaranteed that you get out with nothing the killer can realistically do about it just because you're existing with the perks equipped at endgame.
If all survivors get downed then they lost, its the same as if all got hooked. The killer had to chase and down each individual one, they didn't just exist and the survivors just fall down because of a perk they had. Imagine killer had a perk like that "Once the gates are powered, all survivors enter the dying state", that's the closest equivalent to endgame DS and OTR.
"Why should I get cheated out of deserved win if I played perfectly 95% of the match but misstep (or a teammate makes a mistake) and I end up dying. That's also RNG."
Because you or your team messed up? It's a team based game. Unfortunately, that means sometimes your team will mess you up. Its part of any team game. That's not cheating you out, you messed it up yourself.
That's different from the game giving the killer a cop out like basekit bloodwarden on the last survivor if 3 escape and a switch the survivor and killer have to find that if the killer finds it instantly sacrifices the last survivor. Like the hatch is for survivor.
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If I’m not in range of a hook, and the survivor starts wiggling, then they can get dropped and bled out. I refuse to be nice, when survivors are purposely placing themselves in situations where they can’t be hooked. Survivors know exactly what they are doing, and they’re being spiteful.
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It's not so much spiteful many times but more of a Hail Mary play. If you're placed on a hook there's no chance you'll get the Hatch. If you get left on the ground there's a small chance you get the Hatch.
I'm completely fine with that but, as with Boil Over, Sabo'ing and equipping a Power Struggle build, I'm expecting a bleed out and certainly don't hold it against the Killer. If I play something that may work but is as likely or even likely to make a bleedout the most strategically wise move I certainly don't have a right to complain about getting bled out.
Some people seem to feel they can still complain about getting bled out but, no, you signed up for that possibility as soon as perks like Boil Over, Power Struggle, Flip Flop, etc hit your loadout bar. What I would say to them is don't complain about something you signed up for. There are a few bleed outs just to be toxic but, to be honest, I don't teabag or BM and I get bled out for spite less than 1 in 50 games. It's a pretty rare occurrence in my experience.
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No one asked you to be nice, you are getting triggered out of a hypothetical situation. Just bring the mori and the putrid offering. There's nothing nice about either of those. You have more control over your gameplay than survivors have unless SWF. I don't understand what's so difficult about accepting that solo survivor has issues. You don't see me saying stuff like "If a killer hits me on hook 3 times I should be automatically unhooked" or something like that. Come one now. Is it the toxicity that bothers you about that? Or is it the small buff survivors will get. You confuse me with what is really bothering you.
If you think it happens a lot more often than killers being toxic, then it's on you to bring statistics.
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This isn’t a hypothetical situation. It literally happens a lot in my games. And there isn’t any “getting triggered”, I’m just telling you what I do in my games. If survivors don’t want to be hooked, then they can bleed out on the ground. It’s not really a big deal. But survivors should give up their right to complain about getting bled out, if they are purposely placing themselves in situations where the killer can’t reliably hook them.
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Yes, survivors don't want to be hooked. You make it sound like every time a killer downs a survivor they should crawl to the nearest hook and save the killer the trouble of picking them up. Leaving a survivor on the ground for an entire bleedout is far worse than worrying if they will be able to wiggle off or not. And if they do and go back to the same spot, they'll bleed out eventually anyway. Most survivors don't do this, so there needs to be a solution to unnecessary slugging and killers who simply refuse to even try to hook survivors.
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Just provide the stats? Just because something feels common doesn't mean it is as common as you believe, it's like the people crying "omg the killer is tunneling 90% of the time and camping". Two very common problems (I should know, the last 3 Bubba's I played all litterally facecamped at first hook). It would be misleading of me though to claim that facecamping is prevalent in over 50% of my games, because truth be told unless I track at least 100 games to have a sample I'm just making baseless claims.
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This has happened to me several more times since I made this post. There are too many killers in this game who simply refuse to hook survivors. This has to stop. The game just simply is not fun to play when this is the norm. It shouldn't have come to a point where we need basekit anti slugging abilities to deal with this problem but it has been a problem for too long. The killer should not be rewarded for playing like this. It should be in every way against them to leave survivors on the ground for prolonged periods of time. Survivors should naturally recover, not naturally die when they are on the ground. It shouldn't be the "dying" state. It should be the wounded state that you fully recover from after a period of time.
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I had a killer do this now on Midwich. Slugged me and then left to find the last survivor. I had a gut feeling about hatch so didn't recover, just crawled, and sure enough hatch literally opened right in front of me as soon as the last survivor died. That was nice.
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When there are only 2 survivors left I quite agree, since it's boring being slugged for the 4k. However, it should have a limitation, for example the first time it takes 20 seconds to heal from the dying state, the second time 30 and so on.
When all survivors are in dying state is just stupid, because sometimes you NEED to put all survivors in dying state, for example sabo squad. I remember a sabo squad with 4 unbreakable, I sent all survs in dying state 5 times to be able to hook and kill everyone, because every time I tried to hook someone all hooks were destroyed instantly. So here I needed to slug and to send all survs into dying state at the same time to be able to win.
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This is becoming very common in all my matches. I especially dislike it when the killer is so thirsty for that 4K they leave someone slugged and try to find me (or the other person)
I have to resort to hiding very carefully and bringing the hatch perk or sole survivor. It's like, get your 4K proper, without resorting to slugging. I don't mind losing at all, I just dislike laying there doing nothing or having to hide while my poor team mate bleeds out.
I realize I always have the option of just letting the killer find me and ending it, but then that just encourages that type of game play. Very childish.
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Oh yeah this shouldn't happen, this is why basekit mori should be added so killers can't waste time on already lost match.
Basekit unbreakable isn't needed because that is just straight up unnecessary buff, when killer finds both survivors and downed them, he should deserve a 4k.
Also this can indirectly help with literal "can't hook because no hook nearby" situation too, finisher mori is a best QoL change we can have.
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This is kinda the killer equivalent of waiting at the exit gate until the EGC timer has all but drained, so my opinion on it is kinda the same as that.
Yeah it's frustrating, but changing a game mechanic just because some people use it to be mean sometimes is a questionable decision at best. I wouldn't mind the bleedout timer draining faster in these scenarios though, kinda like the inverse of EGC timer draining slower if someone is dying/hooked.
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Be careful, though! Its this kind of thinking that got basically all killers gen regression nerfed.
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Wow dude, take a chill pill, please.
Well yeah, I know that slugging for the 4K can be tedious and feel pretty uncool, but there are mechanics tied to it, like the Adept Achievments; or a couple of old tome challenges; or the killer might just want to ranking up and doesn't want to risk not to pip and then loose all 4 pips in a series of bad games (this happens really often and is an endless source of salt and sadness); and sometimes, well, the killer just wants a 4K.
I know its sucks, but reverse the perspective: if the killer struggled a lot this game and only got, say, 3 hooks on three different survivors, when you pop the last gen, would you say "you know what? Lets not ruin this guys one kill by going for an easy save by swarming the hook with three healthy survivors, lets just leave"? In over 2k hours I never saw this ONCE.
BUT bleeding out a couple of survivors for an extented period of time is pretty scummy, I give you that. Its not that I havn't done it myself, though, mostly to get back to a really obnoxious bully squad and pay them in their own medicine. I gurantee you that for every 4min bleedout you suffer through, a typical killer player will experience 4-10 two minutes twearking sessions at the exit gates, if they decide not to chase the survivors out.
And while one wrong doesn't right another, it at least might offer an explaination. It would be nice if we had mechanics in place that would prohibit both behaviours. Until then it seems that both sides will suffer.
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Okay give base deerstalker so u wont go too far and i can hook you
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Killers should only be able to play in the narrowly prescribed way that survivors like me demand! No agency, no variety, no strategy!
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You surely can hook at least 2 survivors doing a sabo squad, and chase the others who recovered. If you think you are not winning the game here then I have bad news for you
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Once the survivor is able to pick themselves up, sure
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I find it funny that we still need to have discussions about things that are incredibly unenjoyable, and people still feel the need to debate them as if finding a solution isn't the best way forward.
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First match of the day and this happens. The killer was the skull merchant who was using drones on downed survivors. They also refused to hook the first survivor that was downed. I wondered after about 30 seconds why the killer had not picked them up yet and sure enough they were simply using them as bait. When the killer got 3 survivors down they waited awhile and then decided to hook one and only one survivor. I tried going in to pick the other 2 up but it just ended up with the killer tunneling them down. Just that easily the skull merchant was able to abuse slugging and end the match quickly leaving us with absolutely no option to effectively deal with this situation.
This is wrong in every way. This is not fair at all. More killers are abusing slugging because they know it benefits them the most to play this way. This situation should not even be possible. If the killer does not hook a survivor shortly after downing them it should not play in their favor.
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Pointing out a problem thats been abused for years in the game isn't survivors demanding killers only play in a "narrowly prescribed" way. You're making it sound like if you can't do this as the killer then you have little to no other options to play and win. This is not true at all. Excessive slugging is not good for this game and survivor players are sick of it.
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I just never can figure out the point of it. The thrill of who gets the hatch first is always my fav as killer. I dont have time for that 4k slug sheesh.
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Survivor players should probably play better so they don’t all go down at the same time then!
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So naturally, basekit noed when a swf genrushes a killer right? Right?
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