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MMR Killer just needs to bleed out survivors to move up
According to the wiki, killers go up if survivors die by any means. That's easy. On the other hand, ALL survivors have to escape. Shouldn't killers have to sacrifice all survivors at least?
Comments
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If the killer is able to slug all 4 survivors and have them bleed out, they shouldn't still be at that mmr and having them go up is fine.
There's honestly nothing inheritably more skilled about using hooks and generally the best play is to kill survivors with the least amount of hooks you can.
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or maybe it just shouldnt be that all survivors have to escape
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But you don't even need to hook them at all. You can go up by simply downing and letting them bleed out. How can you honestly not see the imbalance of that?
Right, so once the last gen is done, the game should just end?
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If a team of survivors group up for the killer to slug them all and bleed them out, then the killer likely was significantly better than the survivors.
Slugging has the most counterplay as it's much harder for killers to just camp a slugged body to death and a fully recovered survivor is quick to pick up. As long as survivors aren't just grouping up and attempting to pick up a non-recovered survivor, there's no reason for the entire team to be all slugged. Especially with the HUD changes that show you the recovery status of the slugged survivor.
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No. Just, no.
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Yeah I wish so, because with that change I can repeatedly slug and slug all the low MMR survivors.
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Theres no imbalance, because going for slugs is inherently throwing by doing it constantly. Unless you get a 4 down situation, which takes skill, then they arent getting bled. And besides if they werent gonna get bled out then the killer would just hook them all and they'd die anyway.
Ok, your legs must hurt from jumping to so many conclusions. How did you even get that idea from what I said? All I said was it isnt fair all survivors should have to escape. Thats inconsistent. Thats unreasonable and that is prevented by things out of your control and individual skill. Hence, it shouldnt be that way.
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I mean, what they said is pretty true. If everyone ends up down its because everyone made a mistake. Unless everyone was injured, and everyone was in the same place and everyone was against nurse than its near totally on the survivors. Like do you think everyone gets 4 slugged because wesker got one guy, walked across the map and chased 2 more for 2 minutes before he finally went and got the last one? No, unless everyone is in the same general region and is playing in a way that gives the killer the opportunity to down them quickly then 4slugs dont happen.
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What do you mean "all survivors have to escape"?
Killer MMR scales depend on how many survivors die/escape. A 2K is roughly neutral.
Survivor MMR is individual, if YOU escape, it goes up, if YOU die, it goes down.
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I wasn't sure about that, thanks for clarifying.
My point is, in order to escape, 5 gens and a gate needs to get done aswell as survive the killer and their powers.
All the killer needs to do is down them. Not even hook them.
And you guys think that's fair?
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The killer needs to kill them, whether that's by hooking or bleeding out doesn't make much difference. It's not exactly easy to down all four survivors at once, it's no easier than hooking all survivors at once. If a survivor can be rescued from a hook, they can be rescued from the dying state too. It takes 2 minutes to die on hook, and 4 minutes to bleed out on the ground. So relying on survivors to die on the ground is a much bigger gamble than hooking them, they get twice the time to be rescued (or pick themselves up with any of the various perks for recovering from the dying state) and if they are, you've made no progress at all. On the other hand, if you CAN manage to down all survivors at once, then hooking them all at once isn't a problem either, so it's still the same outcome.
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By putting a survivor on hook there's a chance they can free themselves. By leaving them slugged, they have to have no-mither, unbreakable or soul guard. If you hook them there's more chance of them being freed. By letting them bleed out there's less chance of them surviving.
The whole point is to sacrifice survivors on hooks. But this MMR rewards killers for no hooks at all. It is quite easy to bleed out survivors especially with perks.
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Nobody frees themselves from the hook without Deliverance. Self unhook has a 4% chance to succeed, so nobody does it until it's too late, and 96% of the time they kill themselves in the process. It's certainly not something killers worry about, and on the rare occasion it succeeds, the survivor is likely still going to end up dead anyway because it only happens in a dire situation.
It's really not easier to kill all survivors by bleeding them out. It only works with a select few builds, namely Sadako's Condemned build in which she eliminates survivors through her Stare, or Nurse/Blight who can down survivors quick enough to keep up the pressure required. Any other killer (and even with Nurse/Blight depending on how the survivors play) will struggle to keep all survivors down, you slug one, and someone else will pick them up.
This is also all completely besides the point. MMR is not a reward. You do not gain anything from being at a higher MMR, not even bragging rights, because there's no way to determine what MMR you're at. All you're doing is making it more likely to be paired with sweatier players who camp/tunnel, and cheaters, because cheaters dominate the top MMR bracket.
So no, it's not 'unfair', because the premise is faulty. It's not easier and there's no reward anyway.
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I think there is a huge misunderstanding of the game. Slugging can be effective in some situations, but only slugging is harder than hooking. (3x 4% chances on first hook is not really a factor and if you have teammates picking up a slug is easier than unhooking)
And another thing: you cant have a match outcome, where every player loses. It would be the easiest way to stay at low mmr and torment new players.
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Dude, a killer is going to make sure a survivor trying to save a downed survivor gets downed too. By trying to hook them, they can bodyblock, sabo the hook, blind you with flashlights etc.
Any killer can down all four and bleed them out easier than sacrificing them and that is much easier than doing five gens and a gate.
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It's really not. How about you play killer sometime?
The only time this works is when survivors play like complete tools and rush the killer, thinking they're invincible with their flashlights ready. This sounds like your playstyle with suggestions of bodyblocking the hook, which might explain why you think it's so easy, you keep giving the killer free downs.
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Too right I block the hook to save my teammates. I'm also iridescent 1 with killers.
Don't make this about me. If you don't hook your grade goes down but your MMR goes up if they simply bleed out without hooking. It goes against the game rules and rewards slugging if you don't care about points or grades and just want to keep survivors from playing good killers. The MMR system is just broken then.
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MMR would be broken IF this was true.
Killers could still bleed everyone out (if it's so easy) and then EVERYONE's MMR goes down, which means they could harrass new players like this.
Again: MMR IS NOT A REWARD. If anything, it is a punishment for trying too hard.
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No. Killers MMR goes UP for zero hooks and just bleeding out. Survivors go DOWN. the reward for the killer is being able to do this on better survivors, pushing them down to Vs worse killers =trolling + boring games for survivors + harder games for worse killers. This messes up the whole point of MMR.
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... you just said you think MMR should NOT go up for bleeding out.
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While this is true, it is still stupid that you lose MMR when you die but the rest of your team escapes. Yesterday I was tunneled the whole game by a Doctor, I was the only one being hooked and dead after three Hooks, everyone else managed to escape. So I managed to occupy him for 5 Gens and still I am the one losing MMR, because apparently I am too bad at the game and holding M1 on a Gen would have been the more skillful play.
(Yes, I know that they changed it that you lose less MMR when your team is doing well overall, but I dont think that with a 3 man-escape the Survivor who died lose MMR at all...)
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MMR is designed to measure the course of multiple games, not just one. Individual games don't have much of an effect, it's averages that matter. This is how it's supposed to be a measure of 'skill', if you're highly skilled you will escape/kill more often than you don't. And that's why the scaling system for team mates that escape was added. When you escape you will gain more MMR than you lose when you don't, if other survivors escape.
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Yes. You should have to sacrifice them on the hook. That's what the game wants you to do. That's the objective.
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Then please re-read my previous post.
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I'm not sure if I can make it any simpler than this, but:
If killers are killing survivors in any way, if they're preventing survivors from escaping, in any way, their MMR should go UP. Because their games are clearly too easy for them as a killer. They need to go up, so that they face more competent survivors, and get harder matches. Rewarding killers who employ cheap tactics with weaker survivors goes against everything MMR is supposed to be for.
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Then just bleed out survivors consistently over multiple games. It's not difficult at all.
I'm at iridescent 1, I can't go higher. If I'm bored I can bleed out for like a week and then stop, play properly to grade back up if I wanted to.
Why they base MMR on "dying by any means" is silly. At least sacrifice, Mori whatever. Bleed out is the simplest way to kill and also the worst.
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I don't think you understand the purpose of MMR.
It is not a reward system.
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It is clear I know it's not a reward system.
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It's not supposed to be a reward system. You seem to want it to reward 'healthy' gameplay. That's not the point. It's supposed to separate players who succeed from those who don't, and if according to you, bleeding out survivors is such an easy way to succeed, then that should push killers higher to a point where it's not. It's the entire reason why matchmaking was disconnected from Ranks/Grades, which IS a reward system.
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It's only a 4% chance if the survivor makes only 1 attempt.
It's an around an 11% chance when you factor survivors can attempt 3 times.
(.96)^3 = 0.884736. ~88.5% to fail all 3 attempts
1 - 0.884736 = 0.115264. ~11.5% to self unhook over 3 attempts.
Then if you do the math for what the chance any survivor manages a self unhook, it's around a 39%.
(0.884736)^4 = 0.612709757329767363772416. ~61% for all 4 survivors to fail all 3 attempts.
1 - 0.612709757329767363772416= 0.387290242670232636227584. ~39% for at least 1 survivor to succeed a self unhook if all 4 make 3 attempts.
This isn't to change your point.. I just wanted to do the math.
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Precisely. Bleeding survivors out isn't succeeding. Sacrificing them IS.
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Just because you say "inherently" doesn't mean you're inherently clever or indeed correct.
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It absolutely is. The survivors are losing out. You don't want killers to kill survivors in any way being 'rewarded' for it by going down in MMR to get easier games. Otherwise you'll get an epidemic of bleed out smurfs.
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Cool story bro.
Hilariously bad take.
😂
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Then don't have the killer go up MMR for bleedout, just keep it as is.
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So killers can maintain their low MMR by bleeding out survivors? So they get to bully survivors while not having to worry about their MMR?
Why are you concerned about the killers MMR anyway? It Is Not A Reward System.
When/If you eventually understand that, you won't give a crap about other peoples MMR.
Pips/Grades IS the reward system, and if they bleedout instead of sacrificing survivors, then they get less pip progress. That's the punishment you're asking for.
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Forget about grades & rank, we're talking MMR.
It takes the least skill to bleed out survivors. Skill is sacrificing survivors. The consensus is intentionally bleeding out survivors is just a way of trolling survivors. With current MMR, they get to troll the best survivors instead of them being matched with the best killers.
The MMR should be adjusted or make bleeding out more difficult ie via add-ons or basekit.
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Hooking isn't more skilled than slugging. Any slugged survivor could easily be hooked. The idea that killers have to play a specific way to be skilled is a toxic mindset.
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Not at all. Hooking a slugged survivor is not easier. A survivor can have flip flop, boil over etc. And another survivor can blind / stun the killer I've already mentioned sabotaging. Don't ignore the facts, slugging ALL survivors and bleeding them out is simpler. You can do this to the highest skilled players thanks to this MMR. That is a toxic mindset.
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Yes, because clearly a well explained point is immediately useless because i used the work inherently. get a grip. if you know nothing about this game then thats on you, actually explain you side instead of going "killer getting 4 downs is op!"
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It's not clear. It's the opposite of clear. Do you want Killers who try to slug all 4 survivors to have an easier time slugging all 4 survivors (MMR stays the same or lowers) or to have a harder time slugging all 4 survivors (Killer MMR goes up)? If you want less 4 person slugs then you want the Killer's MMR to go up.
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It doesn't matter how good survivors are, they're at the mercy of a four slug bleedout regardless. It should be clear to all who's perception isn't clouded. MMR should stay the same or go down or make unbreakable basekit or something, all the current system does is tell killers to forget about hooks entirely if you don't care about rewards and just want to troll those teabagging survivors.
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Skilled survivors will do the two main things that beat 4k slugging: 1) let the downed survivor sit on the ground while they finish gens, and 2) if you do down more than one, crawl away from each other so you can't realistically guard more than one.
The only time slugging for the 4k is easier is when all of the survivors play super altruistic and all jump in for a rescue. If they play smart and slam gens in the four minutes of free time you are giving them, you'll be lucky to pick up anything better than a 1-2k in which case, your aren't really moving up in MMR anyway.
If you don't guard the survivor and run off to down another, assuming that you are again playing against skilled survivors, you might get the 4k at some point, but it's going to take so much time and effort as they keep picking each other up that it would have been far easier to just hook them.
Unless a killer is just being a troll, there is literally zero incentive to slug for the 4k.
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You still don't understand. MMR is correlated to the skill level of your opponents. If your MMR goes up it's supposed to give you harder opponents. Why should someone who's slugging every survivor get easier opponents so it's easier to bleed put opponents (which is what your idea suggests)?
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is wrong --> gets told you are wrong ---> mocks commenter, provides no counterpoints
if you are losing to slugging outside of the final 2 you just suck.
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I understand that, it has been discussed and I've addressed it. You don't understand. Good or bad survivors, makes no difference. Slugging for bleedout works at all levels. The fact it's even possible is bad enough. It doesn't matter if it's against the toughest survivors or the weakest.
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You keep demonstrating that you don't understand it.
If survivors die by any means, the killers MMR should go up. It's been explained why, it can't be explained in any simpler terms.
Your insistence that killers don't deserve to gain MMR for bleeding out survivors shows that you still consider it to be a reward.
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As @Seraphor just mentioned you're still showing you don't understand because you keep saying MMR should stay the same or go down. That would reward the Killer who's slugging. The Killer should get progressively harder opponents which is accomplished by MMR increasing. Having MMR stay the same or go down rewards Killers for slugging by giving easier matches; having MMR go up does not reward the Killer.
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Yes that's fair, the killer's objective is much harder than you're wanting to give credit to.
It isn't easy to kill survivors and most killers will never win a game where they go for a 4 man slug as you need to juggle to play the mind game of can they get up or not. It's an insanely boring waste of time that more often than you think will make you lose the game. You also have to keep in mind while y'all have to work somewhat cooperatively you have strength in numbers to start while the killer only has their power to rely on. It can be a tremendous amount of work depending on what your power is, what map you're on, the skill of the survivors, and how much rng wants to favor or destroy you.
Not saying it is a great system, but the objectives for both sides are deceptively simple by design yet have weird layers of complexity. MMR is extremely flawed in this game and the games get worse the further up you go so it isn't anything to worry about.
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The objective is not hooks its kills. That's why MMR is based on kills not hooks.
If the survivors die you won, doesn't matter how.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1
