Generator Speeds are not ok
Something that does not get addressed enough is generator speeds. Prove thyself can knock 30 seconds of a gen without a toolbox. While some killers struggle with map pressure it feels like gens pop way too quickly.
The new scavenger perk is extremely concerning as it allow toolboxes to be replenished.
Coconut made a video covering this, while there has been an added slowdown, using the toolbox or having multiple people on the gen will counter that. (https://youtu.be/g0v4xRwvSts)
When multiple people run prove thyself and split into pairs it can become a really big problem as it can be difficult to keep up without losing 2 generators in 30 seconds. Not to mention that it is one of the most used survivor perks.
Could we possibly see either an increase to generator speeds or a nerf to Prove Thyself as it feels like were heading into an ugly genrush meta and this cannot fly under the radar any longer.
Comments
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Gen progression perks are a problem but Prove does not knock off 30 seconds. Not to mention I will take 2 survivors on each gen all day long. They will most likely lose doing that. Just think a bit harder on this.
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I would like to know where your math comes from. Because AFAIK proof knocks off ~6s from gen. Yes. It's 7s if 2 people are working on a single gen. The thing is, that the effect it provides barely counters basekit malus for multiple survivors working on a single gen.
Going into math: both basekit malus and perk are 15%, but the base from which you count is different - to illustrate base speed is 100%. If 2 survivors work on a gen, each will get 15% malus for 85% repair speed. Now you take this new base 85% and you calculate +15% from this base - which is 0,85*1,15 = 0,9775 speed or to use percents again - you get 97,75% repair speed. Meaning that if we take gens take 90s to repair, but you have 2 people working on it, you would theoretically do it in 45s if there were no modifiers. With proof and basekit malus, it's 90s/(0,9775*2) ~= 46,0358s instead. Without proof, you get 90s/(0,85*2)=~52,9412s to repair the gen. Given the difference between these 2 numbers, proof actually shaves off little less then 7s. This presumes no great skillcheck/toolboxes/anything else is in play (because those would eat away from that bonus even a little more). Now I am really curious how you came up with 30s, because this just does not add up no matter how I try. Also as you can see even better then using proof is to split to 2 gens where you get 2 gens completed in 90s which can be averaged into 45s/gen or 100% speed (meaning you do your gen ~1s quicker AND save a perk slot).
And for scavenger - it seems you are misinformed. It was already stated, that PTB version of this perk will NOT go live. The perk got changed completely and even though it will still remain mildly useful in niche cases, it will absolutely not boost your repair speed (basically they added extra token for requirement and as the perk activates it provides huge debuff for gen repair for 30s - making it useless for genrush purposes and instead making it only good for batch-like repairs - basically only useful against 3gen camping)
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Exactly this.
You also have the problem that prove requires you to group up, so getting interrupted completely stops that gen progress, where splitting up the killer can only interrupt one at a time.
It is always most efficient to split up and do gens. The only time prove should really come into play in a perfectly efficient game is on the last generator. And even then there could be times (like a 3 gen) where splitting up is still the best option even on the last gen.
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Where others see junk, you see valuable improvised tools.
While holding a depleted Toolbox, Scavenger activates:
- Succeeding at Great Repairing Skill Checks grants 1 Token, up to a maximum of 5.
- Reaching the maximum number of Tokens automatically consumes them and fully recharges the Toolbox.
- Activating Scavenger will reduce your Generator repair speed by -50 % for 40/35/30 seconds.
Scavenger grants the ability to rummage through an opened Chest once per Trial and will guarantee a basic Toolbox
It's not that huge and the offset can be somewhat itself be offset. Diminishing returns are still returns and the only real limiting factor is hitting great skill checks which while nearly impossible for new and low skill players is something fairly common for intermediate and high skill players as long as they don't have dead cat reflexes or lackluster internet connection.
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You literally get 0 effect if you repair during that 30s with said toolbox. You just burn it down for no reason. So no. It does nothing for genrush. Now it's only good for repair bursts. -50% for 30s does exactly that...
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Prove thyself is still slower than two survivors working on different gens.
Gen speed is not an issue, spawns are.
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The problem isn't them trying to use the toolbox during the reduced period it is the fact they don't have to stop doing the gen to get charges on their toolbox. It's an efficiency problem which is why I said diminishing returns are still returns.
Every other item perk that gives you a new item or restocks the charges on your item makes you actively stop doing what your doing and go spend time doing something else. Scavenger still allows you to have uptime on repairs but a slower rate for 30 seconds, but that really doesn't matter since 50% repair speed that can be mitigated means not much was truly lost in efficiency.
On top of letting you rummage for another toolbox.
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generator speed is ok, it has very good perks that help, merciless storm, deadlock, overcharge.
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those -50% means it's not genrush. 30s not being able to effectively work on gen = it's NOT a genrush perk. Means if you use the toolbox immediately, then you just wasted it. So no diminishing returns. It just is NOT genrush. It's burst repair. That's it. If you use your toolbox to "mitigate" -50% malus, then you don't have toolbox once the malus runs out so you wasted perkslot for NOTHING.
Not to mention, that you don't get skillcheck every 2s, so you will not get like 10 refreshed toolboxes anyway (most of the time you can realistically expect 1 extra toolbox from this perk).
And rummage is most wasted stuff - brown toolbox gives nothing....
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The RNG overall makes a big difference and what both sides do with it comes on top.
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2 of those suck and 1 is decent.
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2 of those suck if you are not doctor. 1 is always decent
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spawns are big thing and it may seems like gens are fast some games (mainly for m1 killers).
Usually you have two groups, but it can happen to have every survivor spawn alone and you are just screwed without corrupt.
You will most likely lose 3 gens for first chase unless survivors screw it. Then good luck, you have to tunnel, 3-gen or give up.
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you can counter deadlock, it's not always decent.
When we play against deadlock we keep one gen 99 (some save zone, where killer can't easily kick it), so we lose 0 time on deadlock for rest of the game.
I don't really like that perk on most killers, it's passive slowdown you don't have to do anything for it, but it's limited. I use it in only few builds, where I want focus only on chase and ignore gens.
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My common experience is 2 gens. I mostly defend a 3 or 4 gen because I personally find that better as to tunnel someone straight out and it mostly gives more value in my games when i am able to pressure right.
Nevertheless i am not a hardcore 3 gen defender itself and go for a chase nevertheless, but when that takes to long i come back and chase someone else.
Mostly that works pretty good even when the last gen pops and a single survivor escapes. (Or sometimes 2.)
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OP is 100% right, Prove thyself combined with BNP is something I see almost EVERY games now, its INSANITY to leave it like that!
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Merciless Storm: The floor of that perk vs competent survivor is, nothing. If they hit their skill checks (good survivors do), this perk does absolutely nothing. Funny to pwn noobs with tho... but its useless you if were not winning already.
Deadlock: Again, does NOTHING. they will keep a gen at 99% and pop them together, the perks don't work, like at all lol.
Overcharge: Yikes... that one... "worked", notice the past tense, they nerfed it into oblivion and that means that now, there is no way to stop the gen rushes, congratz, game is broken now.
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I know. I do the same in SWF. Not really possible in solo tho -.- Also you need to keep some corner gen at 99%, otherwise you risk it being regressed to 0 (killer always knows which gen it is - he just needs too much time to patrol it). But sure. It's unearned stall that can be countered with little team knowledge.
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Main issue of deadlock for me is how bad it is with other perks. You can't use pop, pain resonance, eruption, jolt etc. anything that damages gen, you always risk it's going to be wasted, because Deadlock was activated.
Only combo that works for me is Deadlock, No way out.
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YES. That's why I don't usually run it. Pain res is IMO better option. You are absolutely right
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This. PTS only really shines when there is 1-2 gens left. Having multiple survivors on the same generator and not spread out when there is more than that is in the killers favor.
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Pain res overall way better designed perk anyway.
It actually promotes hooking different survivors. Deadlock is good only for camping and tunneling.
Pain res is better as perk and for the game.
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This is a complaint I will never understand, but to be fair I did play with 80s gens and win as Killer plenty. Mathematically, it takes a minimum of 450 gen seconds (90*5) to power the gates. Slowdown has always been intended to slow things down, or more accurately, have gens continue to be progressed, but at a lesser rate. When you start the match, Survivors works gens at a rate of 4 gen seconds per real second. Duoing 2 gens slows this down by 15%, or 3.4 gen seconds per real second, with a Prove Thyself rate of 3.91 gen seconds per real second (both slower than soloing gens).
The true value of damaging Survivors, (and hooking them) is to cut a full gen second from that equation, and also force another gen second to be lost going for the rescue/subsequent heal. That is what people refer to as Pressure, or forcing Survivors to stop progressing gens as their best course of Survival. Applying Pressure is where skill comes into play, as bad Killers can't apply Pressure. As a result they are more reliant on slowdown, and complain when slowdown is nerfed, as they require that crutch to win. They could improve their skill, but that is difficult and takes time, so they'd rather take the easy route instead.
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Did I mention genrushing? No. You're in such a hurry to defend the perk you're not even paying attention to what I said.
It's not about using the toolbox immediately, it's about the fact that you can REPLENISH THE DANG THING WITHOUT NEEDING TO GET OFF THE GEN. It should be held to the same function as flashbangs and built to last as that would mean that survivors needed to stop working and to go through a small downtime period. It serves as a better efficiency cap than just saying "lol 50% repair speed for 30 seconds surely isn't a benefit". The diminished return is still a return being able to continue your up time of doing just GENERAL REPAIR WITHOUT THE TOOLBOX WHILE GAINING CHARGES FOR YOUR TOOLBOX IS OVERLY EFFICIENT.
The true limiting factor of this perk is the great skill check requirements rather than 50% cut to gen repair speed because as I said that can be mitigated. So I'm looking at it from a stand point of we're not actually getting a 50% cut but instead depending on the scenario and the loadout of your team mates we could be getting a 50% or less, like 45% or 40% depending on how Scavenger interacts with other perks during that 30 second period. Like if you hard capped during period and the game won't let any other perk act as a mitigating factor the it's moot. It'd still be a return that I disagree with, but it would have consistency which is preferred. If it can be mitigated then the question is to what degree because if the perk says 50%, but with the right combination of perks spread across the rest of your team that 50% is in reality more like 40% or god forbid less than 40% it would be problematic.
Brown Toolboxes is still so it does give something. Also one extra toolbox is kind of bigger deal than you're wanting to give it credit for considering toolboxes are and have been unbalanced for a very long time. Now why do I care this much about it? Because I strongly feel we should keep adding perks to the game that mess with consistency of how a trial is paced. The game can swing between going too fast to being absolutely punishing cause nothing seems to get done fast enough. Borked on both sides, but at least with killers it isn't as borked as used to be because most regression perks have been flattened out. The same can't be said for survivors' repair speed perks and items. So yes, I want survivors to have tangible hard cut to their efficiency and the best way to have that is to make them get of have to get in a locker for bit.
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I also played way before 90 seconds change and in reality games are about some and can be faster.
Gens may be 90 seconds but most perks to slow down gens were nerfed and we have lot of new perks to work on gens faster.
There are not really new slowdown perks. Last killer who had slowdown perks is Sadako and it was nerfed into oblivion. So basically Artist. Even new chapter don't have any new slowdown perk.
Meta during 80 sec was pop/ruin. No current slowdown perk comes even close to those two.
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if you do your gen "normally", it doesn't change anything. The perk is good to buy you "free" time, that you just can't reasonably insert into doing gens. Meaning - if you can heal self/someone, it's worth it. If you can unhook, it's worth it. If you need to do your challenge - you don't really waste team's time that much (well you waste 50% of normal time). If you need to loot chest for some good reason (hoping for self-heal) it's not THAT bad. If you use the time to continue working on the gen, then you just wasted perk slot.
But let's not be theoretical. Let's do math. Best toolbox in the game saves you 17.33s (that's commodius with scraps and spool AKA yellow and brown charges). 30s of repair at 50% speed means you just lost 15s of gen progress. So this whole perk gives you at best awesome 2.33s on gens. That's worthy of perk slot isn't? To be fair, you get more skillchecks. So if you play hyperfocus, then maybe it's usable. But generally - even resilience will buy you more time and is better perk. So no. In reality if you don't want to change the perk to basically give you meager 2.33s, you absolutely NOT continue to work on a gen, because that way you get full downtime from the perk - turning the perk to in best case very niche (something for hyperfocus genrush build just to abuse more skillchecks only) and in worst case to the worst positive-result gen-repairing perk in whole game.
As for your brown toolbox - let's totally forget moving time, because that would just kill your idea then and there. Rummaging takes 6s. But brown toolbox will save you whooping 5.33s. Net result? You just lost 0.67s just by taking the item out. So no. The rummage part is absolutely and irredeemably bad if you are talking about "genrush" potential and you actively loose something if you try to take advantage of it no matter the circumstances if we are talking efficiency. In fact the only reasonable usage is to use it as (a very very slow) sabotage toolbox for 2 uses OR if you want to "burst" that gen, because it's 90% done and you see killer running at you from distance (but again, you only got to this situation, because you decided it's good idea to rummage said toolbox instead of being on the gen).
So to sum up. The perk barely hits any positive efficiency if you want to sit on a gen from start to end. You are much more likely to get benefit from basically any other genspeed perk over this one. The only real benefit this perk gives you in terms of efficiency is when there's stuff to be done outside of repairing gen during it's reduced efficiency time. Overall outside of hyperfocus niche build, this perk almost does more harm then good if your goal is to only repair gens as fast as possible.
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My goal is to not have wild variance in game pacing. I generally want a reduction to efficiency outliers by enforcing actual down time if a perk is going to restore charges to an item. Scavenger should be held to same function and timing standards as Built to Last and Flashbang where to get the benefit you should be forced to drop what you're currently doing and go through a non productive period or don't receive the benefit until you do.
I don't like toolboxes and I don't want a perk that can give toolboxes more capability to influence the pace of my games. It would be different if there weren't already a ton of perks that are seeing regular usage that only serve to make the game go faster than it should be going. The thing I hate most about this game is I can have 4 minute game or 40 minute game, but at least the odd 40 minute game is also a high scoring game where as the much more common 4-7 min games are generally low scoring and not particularly enjoyable because that level of barely restrained efficiency is handle generally makes this stressful. So, since killers aren't really allowed to have such strong effect on gen speed reduction survivors should not be given more tools to keep adding more variance to the game pace. Games should be 9-15 mins and no longer than 30 at max. I want the game to be more consistent instead of dealing with perks and items that genuinely throw the game out of wack. This isn't even about a full on gen rush it's simply me wanting literally anyone to understand that this game is getting optimized to death and we need to seriously start curving the efficiency potential in meaningful ways across the board.
Perks like Scavenger exacerbate the issue just like perks CoB, Overcharge, Older versions Ruin had the potential to do in the other direction. I want fun medium length games where we all get plenty of bp. That's what I want. I don't the game to be super slow and survivors to be unable to do anything, but I certainly don't want anything that even remotely increases the ability to make the game go faster. This perk isn't all that bad, but it certainly doesn't need to exist in the form it did on ptb or will on live when we need to be pulling back on all the others perks and toolbox addons.
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Well I don't know. Maybe I really can't communicate. So I will try to contrast the points directly next to each other. Maybe that will help.
you should be forced to drop what you're currently doing and go through a non productive period or don't receive the benefit until you do
- Activating Scavenger will reduce your Generator repair speed by -50 % for 40/35/30 seconds.
make the game go faster
- repair speed by -50 %
Perks like Scavenger exacerbate the issue just like perks CoB, Overcharge, Older versions Ruin had the potential to do in the other direction.
How? As was demonstrated, the perk does not speedup gen repair (no more then those 2 seconds). So how does it change variability? At most it allows bursting the gen. But that's still not FASTER REPAIR SPEED. Because the perk got INSANE 50% malus.
I absolutely understand PTB version of the perk was problem (to be fair - I thought it was fine expecting only a few seconds boost, but when I looked up numbers I quickly realized how wrong I was. It was busted and it was unfair and it's good the perk got changed. Provided video from coconut was spot on at that time). But giving effective -15s penalty is a guarantee, that the efficiency is basically unchanged compared to not bringing this perk (meaning leaving the perk slot empty - and again, I am only counting repair gens efficiency instead of game efficiency where someone needs to go for unhooks or heal or things like that - but all the perks are meant to give some advantage and both sides do get some value from perks at least conditionally). The only difference is, that you can now repair gens in shorter burst, which means gen regression perks have less time to be applied. Without this malus, each instance of this perk basically shortened the game by 17s. Now it's 2s and in all practical terms the perk is the same-ish as built to last - you don't get extra efficiency from it, but you do get burst repairs.
On the other hand old eruption, CoB, ruin and OC were pure regress. They were not regress now and later complete the gen for survivors on it's own - those perks never got malus (which is logical). They just got their efficiency so much reduced, that it's not even worth to bring them. If they regressed the gen for later progression (or effectively the same thing of speed boost when repairing the gen again by survivors), then it would work like current version of scavenger
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well they are bringing pop goes weasel back. 30% current is not as great as 25% max but it will see some use. pop and eruption will be common for killers seeking to 3 gen from the start and you might see 4 gen regression perks again such as pain res+jolt+pop+eruption as a build.
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The thing about Scavenger is that it differs from PTB in three ways:
1) it takes +1 skill (which is quite minor, but a nerf)
2) after the activation, the repair speed is reduced by 50% for something like 30-40s.
3) The perk can now be used theoretically an infinite number of times.
Number 2 sounds scary, BUT if you repair by yourself first and insert the toolbox at the end, you can spend the next 30 seconds looking for a new generator, healing, unhooking, running away or doing everything, that isn't a gen... And then with a full stack of Stake Out you come to the generator, hit the 5, restore the toolbox, insert, repeat...
Your words that the perk is not a genrush sound ridiculous now, don't they?
Well, even the Clown and the Doctor don't laugh about it.
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I am already using pop. It's one of better slowdown perks we currently have.
I just like how people try to argue killers got buffed with 90 sec gens, but ignore all nerfs to regression perks and new gen speed perks.
Games in reality are same or faster than during 80 sec gens.
Funny is we didn't get any new slowdown perk since Sadako. That's 5 chapters (including new one).
All perks we got for killers are niche or complete trash.
Why bother with 3 perks per killer when they go straight into trash bin.
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I'm confused by this odd scenario you've constructed.
Scavenger only activates when the box is empty, so you're relying on the RNG without extra toolbox skill checks to get 5 before completing the gen.
You have to get a skill check within the last 5% or so to minimize the penalty, but still have the penalty fade 'while walking around'.
Are you doing gens in the killers terror radius this entire time? Because stakeout only has 4 stacks, so even then you still have to hit one naturally (and since I assume these 'aren't that hard to hit' then stakeout isn't necessary at all).
If you aren't in the terror radius, it takes 60 seconds of being in the TR to recharge all 4 stacks... Which is presumably not doing gens and wasting time.
In the end, your manufactured scenario boils down to: 'but, but what if someone brings a bunch of gen perks and then spends a ton of time not doing gens?'
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Which is exactly what I wrote. The perk effectively gets you out of gen - possibly even slowing the game down - for benefit of doing gen in burst. That makes it more in line with potential energy instead of hyperfocus. So no. It's not genrush. It's burst repair perk.
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Cannot fly under the radar any longer? Have you ever read the front page of the forums? You just took a dump on top of a mountain. Everyone can see the mountain, and you.
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The gens just fly by these days don't they i don't knock survivors for doing their objective i just wish there was more game play like chase sad times
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That completely ignores my point. Slowdown has always been inferior to pressure. Even an old Pop with (25% of 80) 20 gen seconds is worth 5 real life seconds of uninterrupted soloing gens. Pressure is skill, slowdown is a crutch to rely on when lacking enough skill to apply pressure. The issue is an unskilled Survivor doing the objective is practically the same effectiveness as a skilled one (barring a few great skill checks on the way), but an unskilled Survivor goes down near instantly compared to a skilled one. An unskilled Killer is unable to choose their chases and get the drop on people, or chase someone that better suits their playstyle, whereas a skilled Killer can. Killer's success is entirely reliant on skill, Survivor's is reliant on at least 1 person having skill.
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