Bedam, garden of joy and Ormond needs to be fixed.
Those to maps are so one sided in favor of the survivors its just unfun.
those second floor gens that are literally right next to a safe window are assinine... why not just give free gens to the survivors while you're at it?
those maps are absolutely horrendous.
Comments
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Badham and Garden I agree with, those maps are pretty notoriously bad for the killer, but Ormond?
The main building can be problematic, especially when survivors decide they want to be unhookable and build around it, but other than that specific niche build I don't think I've had that much trouble on Ormond. Honestly, I quite like that map, it's about as big as any map should be and most of the loops aren't too obnoxious.
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It's huge, M1 Killer have 0 map pressure on it.
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Ehhhh. It's the medium size for maps, and while that's still pretty big for killers with no mobility, it is imo the biggest a map can be while still being fair.
I play a lot of M1 killers and if I play the map smart I usually don't have a huge problem with the size.
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Except that on this map, you can't patrol gens effectively at all due the their even spread.
RDP, while factually bigger "feels" smaller due to the corridor settings that gets in the way of both teams in a fair way/in favor of certain killers.
but that "medium sized map" is setup in such a way that survirors can flee in almost ANY direction and end up a very SAFE tiles all over the map, its very open and gens are usually very far from one another.
For its design its factually too big.
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Are the tiles that safe, though?
There's the long one built around whatever that big vehicle is, but a lot of the rest of them are either standard jungle-gym type tiles or unsafe snowdrift type tiles. That's part of why I don't mind this map so much, most of the pallets feel pretty fair and playable.
In extreme situations for super immobile killers (like Trapper or Hag) I could see the argument being that you have to ignore some of the edge generators, but that's kind of how those killers play anyway so it's not a huge change. Everyone else I feel can patrol well enough, so long as they're not like... trying to patrol around the whole map in an unbroken loop or something, lol.
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Are the tiles that safe, though?
Yes, a resounding yes.
Hands down no freaking question asked, everyday of the week. YES
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Ormond is fine I do well on it as both survivor and killer.
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Can I ask why you think that?
The tiles that aren't like, normal jungle gym tiles are pretty *un*safe in my opinion. They're mostly like, the super short and low ones with snow piles as one half, right? Those aren't particularly safe, and a lot of killer powers interact very favourably with them.
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Jungle gym are mostly safe.
but the real issue is that one side is Shack and the other is that silly building with the "2nd floor" window that can be looped in the most braindead fashion ever...
And main, omg main, unplayable.
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Sure, but they're well designed and the killer has agency in playing them, and there should be at least some safe tiles on the map. The presence of well-designed safe tiles isn't in itself a bad thing.
As for the silly building... you don't mean the little thing that literally just has a window in it, with a breakable wall? That structure is the furthest thing from safe, it's practically a trap for survivors.
Main can be bad, depending. I'm not gonna say it's never a problem, just that the degree to which it's a problem is usually a lot lower than some other structures.
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"Sure, but they're well designed and the killer has agency in playing them, and there should be at least some safe tiles on the map. The presence of well-designed safe tiles isn't in itself a bad thing."
Survivors should never be "safe", it's about the time they can earn for the team, there should never be any such thing as safety for them.
That carebear mentality is making the killer's role unplayable.
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...Safe tiles doesn't mean survivors are literally safe, it just means the tile can be looped and mindgamed on both sides.
Like I said, the killer has agency in playing them. You can exercise your skill to determine the outcome of those tiles, not just your opponent.
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There is no mind game involved with going to second floor, drop from a safe window, repeat until blocked
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Second floor? We're talking about jungle gyms here.
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The problem ormond is the map spawns with 4 safe god pallets that are all easily chainable into first chase. One of the pallet is at the top of main building. The second god pallet is on left or right hand side of building on 2nd floor. The 3rd pallet is snowplow pallet and final one is shack pallet. I dislike how survivor can go to these auto-pilot pallets and pre-drop 4 pallets producing long early game chase for little to no skill.
As non-anti loop killer, your are forced to lose 3 gens on first chase because survivor will continuously run to these 4 pallet until they are broken so you might as just get it over with at the start game and lose 3 gens. this is why safe-god pallet need to removed or heavily nerfed. I had a recent clown match on Ormond that was exactly that. I should not be losing 3 gens in first chase due to poor pallet design. after that match, it reminded me why I should not play clown vs efficient looping/gen teams. 2k/losses that happen out of your control are not fun. Alternatively, i wish clown was stronger so he would be more fun to play vs strong teams.
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don't say "we", you are.
I am refering to the structure with a window on the otherside.
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There are maps that are notoriously more killer-sided as well. It’s nice to have variety in a game, and when you get something that’s challenging take it as that: a challenge. There are certain killers that I just struggle to play against because they’re so powerful but I just try my best and try to learn ways to do better rather than want them changed. I can understand if something is so imbalanced that it’s literally a flaw, but I don’t think there’s a single map like this in game. Yes, some definitely have more designs that favor different aspects of gameplay but not to a detrimental degree. Badham and Haddonfield are known for being survivor-friendly but I actually have a lesser escape rate on those than I do others.
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I have no clue what a "killer-sided map" even looks like, usually when people start to "name some" those are just pallet-town nowadays.
but pallet-town can be managed on SOME killers I guess.
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They look like: The Game, Suffocation Pit, Azarov’s Resting Place, Midwich Elementary School, Grave of Glenvale, Shelter Woods, Wrecker’s Yard… even RPD can be more advantageous depending on the killer. Also, just because a map has a lot of pallets doesn’t mean it has a lot of safe pallets.
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The Game: Pallet-town (50/50)
Suffocation Pit: I don't get that one, it's survivor-sided but only a little.
Azarov’s Resting Place: just... how? I am legitimately confused here.
Midwich Elementary School: Honestly, don't run in the main hallway and your are A-OKAY, there's a safe window everywhere unless killer waste 3 gens worth of breaking walls.
Grave of Glenvale: I'll grant you that one but main building is absolutely unplayable.
Shelter Woods: Just ... no. I won't bother explain, just no. That's 100% survivors biaised in so many ways.
Wrecker’s Yard: Pallet-town, yet again. (50/50)
Next you'll tell me infirmary is killer sided? maybe not but that would be the next logical step.
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Azarov’s Resting Place: just how? I am legitimately confused here.
Genuinely wondering why you don't think that. This is like THE killer map in the game. It's incredibly easy for them to 4 gen either on purpose, or accidentally, especially if they don't do the middle gen.
Shelter Woods: Just no. I won't bother explain, just no. That's 100% survivors biaised in so many ways.
Same here, I am genuinely confused on how this is survivor sided. Even with the rework so it just doesn't have 5 pallets anymore, the main building just.. made most of the other loops unsafe and created even more dead zones where safer structures used to be able to be spawned.
Midwich Elementary School: Honestly, don't run in the main hallway and your are A-OKAY, there's a safe window everywhere unless killer waste 3 gens worth of breaking walls.
Once you break the breakable walls the map in general starts becoming unsafe tho. TBH if you aren't breaking those walls, that is on you, it's a pretty killer sided map. Whether breakable walls should exist or be a thing is a completely different discussion though.
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Let's agree to disagree
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This just shows how biased you are. Which is only understandable when you name small hut in Ormond as something braindead easy for survivors with 0 agency on killer. As a killer this is usually (not always) hit for me (if we are not talking about balanced landing)
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I just wanted to understand your thoughts on shelter woods/azarov's, but ok I guess.
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Coming from a biaised person like you, that's a compliment actually.
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These maps are huge with very easy gens to rush.
The pallets are so easy to chain and numerous that you could pre-drop all game and never run out plus a bunch of good windows spreaded all over.
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Ehh Ormond has its own issues. The only 2 maps I have difficulties seeing scratch marks on are Borgo and Ormond. If we could customize scratch mark colors it would be fine, but for whatever reason I just can't for the life of me see scratchies only on those 2 maps as Killer.
Ormond is also in general more punishing to the more fun/fair Killers than the oppressive lot. Blight can just dash across the large distance, even if he has to circle the loops normally as an M1 Killer. Spirit gets free wins on the 50-50 central that map further exaggerates. Artist can DMS camp hooks for massive pressure, and so on. Whereas Legion can barely chain multiple hits even if they spawn together, and its the Legion's friggin' map. Trapper barely has any grass to work with, and more. I almost think there should be 2 variants, 1 with a (much) larger main building, but only the main building, and the other with a smaller main building, with the rest of the map shrunk accordingly. Almost like the RPD treatment. (Personally though I had no problems with RPD as both sides with the old single map, and find the new double maps to be too centrally campable. There needs to be more outdoor routes to sneak to the back of the sides, and not force all traffic through the center.)
I agree with OP in regards to the title listed maps, but most of the other maps they talk about are either fair or Killer sided. To be fair if I take the Oni profile pic, and my experience with Oni players into account, that would explain quite a bit. The Onis that never drop chase in bad spots typically end up losing. I find far greater success in chasing 1 person to get multiple pre-drops, then chase another person into that deadzone.
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The Onis that never drop chase in bad spots typically end up losing. I find far greater success in chasing 1 person to get multiple pre-drops, then chase another person into that deadzone.
Isn't this true for basically all the maps?
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Oni is hit and run.
Hit and run don't work at all if gen time is under 5 min.
so no, its not related to a lack of situationnal awareness, its the series of nerf to gen kicking build, which was the last line of the defence we had but hey.
Can't blame him for assuming that either.
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I mean to be fair I could also expand that to all normal-ish M1 Killers as well. Two sub-issues though, first Garden and Borgo rely on Bloodlusting the weaker filler pallets, and not the separate re-deadzoned chase (as there are no large enough areas without pallets). Also Oni specifically is more feast or famine than other Killers though. I just mean that similarly to how I call bad Ghosties 'Chasefaces', it was indistinguishable from a few posts whether this was the equivalent or something else.
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Makes sense.
And yes. Garden and borgo are pain for killers (IMO borgo is just pain for both sides, but it's still surv sided)
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I don't agree that Ormond should be in the same tier as those other maps.
Yes the map is more survivor favoured, but it's not problematic compared to other maps.
Personnaly i just like the map for how simple it is and the snow aesthetic.
But the size is medium to large, but there aren't any really abusable loops and the map even has some really bad filler pallets. Besides the spawn logic of the map is really predictable when compared to other maps.
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if something is favoring a side over the other, it is problematic.
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Maps are meant to favour the survivor very slightly, though, because maps are the only thing survivors really have to stay alive. They're meant to start out with resources that deplete over time, giving the survivors something to work with that they need to manage smartly.
So, if a map has resources that are too plentiful or chain together too easily (especially windows, which don't deplete), then it's problematic. If it just favours the survivors a little in ways the killer can circumvent with smart play and aggressive resource destruction, though, that's balanced.
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Springwood and Garden definitely need some major changes Ormond could maybe use 1 change. Sure th building can be a problem but, the map overall now is still mostly fine and not as bad as it's old version.
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well no.
Survivors start with enough ressources to pre-drop every pallets on the map and still make it to the next one until there is like 2 gen left.
have you ever seen a competitive game with survivors on coms?
its braindead easy, these guys just call which one was dropped and they move to the next one. people only start to go down on last gen and as they try to open the gate.
the reality of it is that to play killer casually is absolutely impossible in this day and age, unless you are willing to take the L EVERY games or bring some sweaty addon/perks combination.
Meanwhile when I play survivor I am chilling with my buds on discord being impossibly bored by how brain dead easy they made the game for survivors with all the basekit everything they put there.
Honestly, how do people ever die as survivor?
all you need is a duo.
Only thing that seem to get me when I play survivor is either; Good nurse, Blight (of course) or the occasionnal spirit/myers with certain addons... plague would be a bit of a stretch but sometimes tho.
when I see any other killer I feel like DCing just because there is no way they can do anything.
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...None of that addresses what I said in my post?
Maps are still meant to favour the survivors, to a degree. The problem is how many of them favour the survivors too much.
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It address the fact that you think its okay to favor the survivor in the first place when they already were favored for long and they keep getting more and more over time for the sake of "their fun"
its about time they stop with that mentality of giving survivors free wins every games.
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My comment has nothing to do with positive changes- I am not saying maps need to favour survivors more than they currently do.
I'm saying that on a fundamental design level, talking about maps starting from a blank slate, maps are supposed to favour the survivors. It isn't unbalanced for maps to favour survivors to a degree, because they are meant to. They're just supposed to get more killer sided over time in a match as resources are used and deadzones are created, and that doesn't happen on too many maps right now.
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I disagree.
maps should be designed to be fair from the start.
currently, the baseline is way too favorable to survivors on most if not all maps and its insanity.
there is always a safe window / god pallets a few steps away in the beginning of the match and its absolutely crazy.
people in the old day were losing their mind over shack pallet and now "shack pallet" is just "half the pallets of the god forsaken map"
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Maps favouring the survivor slightly is fair. Those resources are pretty much all they have, disregarding like... Sprint Burst and maybe Dead Hard specifically.
They need to have some resources, and at the start, those resources should be enough to buy their teammates time for generators. That favours the survivor, at the start.
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Only fix they need is to be flat out deleted, judging from their past reworks I don't trust them to not make them even more survivor sided and they're already miserable as is.
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Badham I agree with. Garden of Joy...the main building is too strong. Ormond? Maybe a little less pallets. However, I despise the reworked Red Forest maps and Blood Lodge so much more. They are filled to the brim with safe pallets, which cannot be mind gamed. It's disgusting.
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i agree but spawns need to be looked at on that map. They're brutal for killer
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Ormond needs to be like 35% smaller and the main building needs to be defanged so survivors can't abuse boil over builds and other nonsense
Garden of Joy needs the gamma turned up about 25% and needs to be a bit less cluttered, could also use like a 20% size reduction and a less abusive main building
Badham on the other hand is a friggin nightmare. I don't know if you can really fix this map, it's such an awful cluster, it's too dark, insanely difficult to navigate, insanely easy to get lost or forget things, this entire realm could get scrapped and the game would be better for it.
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just because a map has a ton of pallets doesn’t mean that it has a ton of safe pallets. KingField and Jester nailed it on the head in their comments, Based on what I’ve read from yours you really don’t have any experience playing survivor often. I very rarely play with friends and if I do we don’t communicate throughout the match. Try going SoloQ. Also, I’ve seen comments about maps being unfair because it’s hard to see scratch marks and how any map that might be survivor sided is unfair.. have you ever thought that scratch marks are inherently unfair? Any time we run we give away our location? It is unfair, but it’s also part of a greater balance and because survivors are hella loud, move slow, and leave bright red marks everywhere they run they need places to hide, escape routes, and ways to slow down their pursuer.
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It is impossible for a map to be 100% fair.
There to many variables:
- Map RNG
- Killer
- Killer's build
- Survivor's build
- Skill level
IT is impossible for a map to be balanced when there are so many variables, a map might be survivor sided, but against other killer's it is not.
So, i think only the most problematic maps need to be fixed. Ormond isn't one of the problematic maps. The map is kinda like Dead Dawg for me, i know it favours more one side, but i always enjoy it, i don't care which side i am playing.
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As killer i'm getting a huge amount of survivors trying to send me to garden of joy an i know if i'm a certain killers i'm absolutely stuffed
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The only issue with Ormond is that scratch marks are nearly invisible on that map and I wish the devs would fix that. All the Badham maps are awful though.
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That has to be the most untrue statement so far.
Not only is it possible to achieve a balanced state, as many maps aren't too bad, its just that they are CONSISTENTLY getting worst for killers.
The biggest issue right now, amongst other things, is the amount of safe vault that are RIGHT NEXT TO A GEN.
there is NO interaction a killer can do to prevent a crappy play pattern to take place, like, nothing at all, but for those who don't understand the interaction in question, I'll spell it out for you:
1: Killer approaches a gen, TR happens, Survivors knows its coming.
2: Killer sighted, Survivors runs to Guaranteed safety via nearby safe vault.
3: Smart killer play: Break off chase because nothing can be done.
4: Repeat step from 1 at a different gen. As killer, by then, you know you are not suposed to have fun, like ever.
The survivors being constantly safe leads to the dreaded 3 gen scenarios since, more often than not, these are the ONLY PLAYABLE gens killer may have on the whole map... so if survivors are smart... they ignore their "safe gens" and exclusively pressure those 3, once the "3 gen" is broken, match is unofficially over and everything else is just a prolonged formality, repeat the steps above until survivors had their fun/BPs and killer is either DCing in rage or being clowned around with all the remaining pallets because, god knows, there is WAY TOO MANY OF THEM.
but honestly, that's not even it because the "breaking the 3 gen" part is given to survivors FOR FREE when they bring BNP+Prove thyself and they have more tha 2 braincell to identify which gens are the killer's favorite (I know because that's what we do in my play group of survivors on voice and its BRAIN DEAD EASY and CONSISTENT).
Its an unplayable mess the safer survivors get and now they have a newly given combo that makes them faster base speed than any M1 Killer (New survivor perk).
Just saying.
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