franklins' demise/emp
The emp is busted, it gets rid of all the blobs, cancels the killers abilities, regenerates, and is just truly overpowered. The new killer is basically just trapper without any abilities when your blobs can't do anything.
Franklins' demise nerf is pretty garbage, it's supposed to help you by getting rid of an item. If it's Wesker or nemesis, it doesn't really matter since they go away once they are done, but for the emp it comes back in the chests.
Don't get me wrong, i love the game and chapter, but seriously, nerf the emp.
Comments
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Whilst I appreciate the feedback around the EMP's - this is obviously something we are going to be looking out for with the latest chapter. Franklins will only work on Survivor Items, not the special items moving forwards, so this includes Sadako Tapes etc, this is not expected to be changed.
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Please nerf the EMPs.
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Wow. So apparently you WANT to drive killers into only the tunneling playstyle, as basically everything else is dead.
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You do realize this will just cause less build diversity and cause the same perks to be run on Pinhead, nemesis, and Wesker right? But survivors complained and you can't have that. Horrible change.
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I honestly do not understand the reason why this was changed. I never saw anyone complaining about pinhead bringing Franklin's for the box. This seems like a change for the sake of change. Franklin's got nerfed without any reason.
I can understand for the glyphs or stuff like that but Killer Items like Tape or Box seems unecessary.
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Will Franklin delete items again since the special ones aren´t affected by it?
Nemesis Vaccine was the reason why the item deletion got removed due to it instantly deleting a syringe.
Why are EMPs not affected by Franklin anyways, they´re unlimited unlike the Vaccines and Sprays.
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People definitely complained about Pinhead doing that. Lol. It was a major part of his playstyle & it made him very oppressive.
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The change to item categorizing was needed, but also the way it's been handled is messy and flawed. There had to have been a point where someone said "What if the Franklin's interaction of dropping an item was preserved, but the killer items were exempted from charge loss?". If the counterplay to a killer's power is going to be baked in mechanics then killers have to have some sort of concrete measure to attempt to counter the counterplay. Franklin's Demise had a significant push/pull strategic effect on how we as players on both sides interacted, but now increasingly that push/pull factor is being carved away. Offloading the cognitive need for survivor countermeasures to be discovered through learning how to use the pre-existing tools and techniques in favor of hard coded binary mechanics really needs to still have room for killers to have soft counterpoints to said hard counters.
Singularity's entire power is in his pods and slipstream infection. The average player is currently not going to remotely see a lot of the potential strength that power has because there no build you can run that allows you to somewhat counter his unique counter mechanic. Franklin's would have been the only thing, but now there is nothing which pretty bad. So instead of push/pull scenarios you get feast or famine scenarios where either you're really good and very lucky to the point where you're probably able to succeed no matter what or you get games where you're gonna spend the entire just not having power outside of glorified surveillance camera with a slow switch back ala twins style.
Why design in ways that are easy to see as frustrating for the average killer player? It's hard to trust that anyone actively working on the game actually plays the game in the same way everyone else does when the design decisions that are making it to live servers are more often than not frustrating and confusing to us.
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they're not affected by Franklins because they are classed as Special Items not Survivor Items.
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Changing it back to delete items again instead of draining charges would be a nerf. With the old Franklin’s, your item was perfectly fine if picked up in time. With the current version, it never gets destroyed but even losing just a few charges can make a difference especially with medkits since you may not have enough charges for a full heal anymore.
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Whilst I understand what you are meaning, when decisions like this are made, all interactions are taken into consideration. Our team of designers specifically want Special Items to be exempt from a perk working on them so in the same vein as Sadako tapes do not work with Franklins - it's not to do with the charge loss but to do with the item itself.
Don't forget when Franklins was introduced to the game, special items weren't even in the game as the killers didn't have anything, it's only more recently where killers have had special items and having a perk work on those items where survivors have to interact with that item - such as Pinheads box isn't great. So completely separate to charge loss.
Franklins still has a most definite place in the game and is still as useful as it ever was.
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I highly disagree with how useful Franklins is. Most of the time survivors will just drop their items when they see Franklins so you cant delete the charges on the item. I never once had a match where I saw Franklins help against medkits or toolboxes.
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The different category and interactions with special items makes complete sense for every killers special items.. except The Singularity's, who's patch it came with. EMPs are by far the strongest item any survivor can have in a game as the Singularity, and they're infinitely replenishable and immune to any kind of counter. It takes a single survivor game to master the use of EMPs and completely delete the killers power.
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While I understand why these interactions with Franklin's and Hoarder were removed (and tbh I agree with them being removed - I think all perks on both sides that have any direct interaction with part of a killer's power should be changed, such as Adrenaline countering Freddy), is there any plan to look at Hoarder in the future? Franklin's still has decent value without the interaction with special items, but these special items were basically the only thing Hoarder was used for and without that it's back to being one of the worst perks in the game, much like it was before special items were introduced.
If EMPs are too strong (which I think they are), they should be changed directly, not given an interaction with Franklin's.
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Maybe, it's just ironic that the same patch that brought in this change to how Franklins interacts with special items is the one patch it completely kills that killers power. If they hadn't brought in this change to special items this patch, this killer might be passable. If they hadn't brought in this killer this patch, then the change would have been 100% fine.
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I'd rather Larry be weak on release and have the EMPs nerfed heavily in a patch or two than have Franklin's be a permanent part of Larry's build just to counter them.
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Can't really disagree with that. His power is just fundamentally busted.
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This is kind of the point yes.
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Thank god its was just so braindead how a pin head can just down a person and then abuse his power of chain hunt getting the box himself and as if he didnt even had an add on for that to see it already. if sadako tape was treated as special it makes SENSE that wesker/neme and pinhead be treated the same, thanks devs and now I do not have to be dropping my precious items anymore. Very interesting something I wish for once in this game actually happened.
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Well, you (collectively) definitely got the "Larry be weak on release" part accomplished.
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Whats the logic behind nerfing such a niche perk?
perks like territorial imperative, bloodhound, shattered hope and like 10 others remain absolutely trash that you can’t even build around for a meme but they come to the conclusion Franklins needs to join them?
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As always release content with safe numbers as hell to change it on a midpatch to keep being safe numbers as hell on release to keep change it to safe numbers on midpatch.
What about to risk a bit and balance around medium high tier players ( not only for killers do it also as survivor too)
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bhvr's desire to make playing survivor require zero effort or thought trumps all balance issues
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Did you forget the mass negative reviews when any heal was supposed to take 24s?
Better to go low and boil it slowly.
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As a Nemesis main, I would like to denounce this nerf. We and the Wesker mains are hurting because they wanted to cuck the robot? And when or how does one get a refund for a virtually useless killer that one doesn't have any fun playing as?
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I didnt mean thar patch i mean when releasing a killer.One thing is using safe numbers and another is like okay lets put 4 mins cooldown to killer power just in case someone have remotely more chance to get a surv with power than not.
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So you deliberately release something you know is a hot mess just so you can nerf if in 6 months?
Good marketing there, "hey guys buy this new killer that's trash on release"
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It's certainly honest marketing than "hey we made this OP perks, please buy it it's strong!" then nerf it in few months because everyone bought it.
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Be honest: Does BHVR have an idea how they want Killers to play at all?
Because it feels like when players come up with builds for a Killer that BHVR doesn't like or run counter to BHVRs design philosophy, the perks and addons necessary to make it work get nerfed hard.
See also: The old M&A Deathslinger build that gave you a very narrow window of stealth with the Redeemer. The build took a number of perks to make it work and BHVR nerfed him for no reason and has refused to undo the nerfs.
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But what about Pinheads Cube now? You could use Franklins to make survivors drop it, but that will not work anymore, I guess? Not that I would miss it, just curious.
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How does the item change make playing Nemesis or Wesker useless? Care to explain? Sounds more like a massive hyperbole to me.
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A number of perks for M&A Slinger? Yeah sure, you need M&A, and one is a number. But everything else is icing on the cake (to know where to find ppl on gens).
About stealth:
Every stealth killer has their own miniscule audio cue when they are approaching:
- Wraith is snarling, and his bell rings, even with silent bell you hear the uncloaking.
- Myers can be heard breathing when near
- Pig has to either roar (for dash) or unsheath her blade (for uncrouch), both can be heard.
- Ghostfaces has flappy clothes that can be heard
- Sadako has a lullaby
- Even non-stealth killers with Undetectable as a side effect of their power can be heard moving (Demo, Dredge, Scully)
ALL mentioned have in common that they first have to get close to you, where the audio cue gives you an early start if you pay attention to it. Thats the way stealth effects are balanced in the game.
M&A Slinger totally circumvented that. SInce he has a ranged ability, he could spear and hit you without any indication he was near. Sure slinger is a large dude, but on maps like Yamaoka with tall, non-solid LOS blockers, not even that large size could be noticably. And all that without any drawback for the killer (with the TR addon, at least you have to scope, which makes you really slow). So to make it more fair / allow for some counterplay, his TR was increased.
Could it be handled differently than just giving him normal TR? Sure, other range killers like Trickster and Huntress have a lullaby, so they could have given that to slinger as well. I guess they didn't bc adding a lullaby is more work (has to be composed) than just changing the base TR radius of a killer (number change).
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With old Franklins, hitting a Survivor with a syringe or spray can would make it drop but not lose charges. Therefore a Hoarder Franklins build would allow Nemesis/Wesker to interrupt Survivors from removing infection, which can be devastating especially on Wesker. While the Killers aren’t affected as much as compared to Pinhead, it removes build variety in a meta that is already restricting viable builds for Killers.
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I mean if ur bad :shrug:
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"It removes build variety" when all I ever saw was Pinheads using Franklin's. Like it wasn't build variety because it was in every single build, and I can guarantee the same would be said for Larry if they didn't make these changes.
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Don't worry, you'll still see hags using it, those 3 times a year you'll verse them
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completely not what I was referring to - the latter part regarding Franklins is what I'm commenting on, which is the subject of the thread.
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I am just sad that this just deacresing build diversity. Frenklin's could always be countered once you knew Killer has it and unless Survivors had very good items, it wasn't big of a deal at all (Oh nooo, I lost my brown toolbox...). And since when Nemesis vacines were removed with Frenklins? I thought it will just force you to drop it, which again, I don't see the problem with it. If it would make that item dissapear, then it would be bug since Frenklin's doesn't do that, it just makes you drop it and lose charges if the item even have any.
It just nerfing situational perk and decreasing build diversity.
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Here is what I don't get a out the Frank change.....I get that it was a good play to make Special Items immune to the Perk and was a good call.
But why do Survivors get to keep their item and then get to hold the special item too. That's what made those special items a risk vs reward. Do you take a Sadoko Tape to cancel a TP spot but have to drop your med kit or toolbox to do it. Now there is no risk vs reward there is just reward.
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I honestly never met a Nemi or Wesker player to run Franklins bc of vaccine or sprays. It's just not very effective, when most vaccines and sprays are used far away from the killer, so you don't even have a chance to make them drop it. Also, before the item change, when survs brought their own item, they usually only switched to vaccine / spray and switched back the moment they applied it. Only when not bringing an item or keaving it somewhere, you would have a reason to take vac/spray with you. If anything, vacs and sprays will be carried more NOW, with the item change. So a Franklins Build to counter that would make sense NOW, but not before the item change, imo.
The only exception from that was Pinhead, since he had a clear advantage when making survs drop the cube. That is no longer possible now, which is fine, imo. That playstyle was very obnoxious.
So yeah, it may suck a bit that Franklins no longer works on killer items. But still this situations were and are the great exception, the main purpose of Franklins is draining medkits or hindering flashlight usage.
And on the flip side, it's a great QoL change for the survivor side, not having to swap items. My guess is, when playtesting with Singularity and the EMPs, they recognized how much of a hassle this constant swapping of items is, so they consolidated the item types. I really like such consolidation changes, they make the game way more clear. This time, the survivors got the better of it. Looking at older consolidation changes, the killers had the advantage:
- Patch 6.1 - Definition of conspicious actions: Prior only with reworked DS, now also deactivates Endurance, and now also covers opening a gate. More of a killer favored change.
- Patch 3.4 - Introduction of Undetectable status effect: Consolidation of multiple "Remove TR and red stain" effects from perks and powers, also removes auras now. The only slight killer nerf by this consolidation was Myers losing his Spine Chill counter, but overall stealth killer were buffed significantly.
- Patch 1.5 - Introduction of Exhausted status effect: Consolidation of multiple sprint related perks to prevent stacking effects. Clear killer-favored change.
So summing it all up, IMO it's a perfectly reasonable change. It may hurt killer variety slighty (although I cannot not really take this claim too seriously, given how much of a niche those types of builds were and are), but it's a great change for survivor play, making games with killer items and / or flashbangs much more smoothly.
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But why do Survivors get to keep their item and then get to hold the special item too. That's what made those special items a risk vs reward. Do you take a Sadoko Tape to cancel a TP spot but have to drop your med kit or toolbox to do it. Now there is no risk vs reward there is just reward.
Because players cannot just not be dicks and would take an item, particularly a rarer one, and lord it over the other player all game just because. Same thing that happened with "item teching" except they just lucked out because it was a certain killer and can now bm a player who dared to bring in an item (usually equipped with sandbagging too because DBD randoms just can't help themselves).
Also, you've never had to drop an item for Sadako's tapes. They've always been shared.
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Great. So now there's no counter for a survivor just holding onto a cube and not solving it. Well, at least I won't see any chain hunts anymore.
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You guys do things without even thinking sometimes. And then turn around and make us console players wait an entire ptb for things that should've been implemented without question. Save these kind of changes for a ptb to get player feedback instead of just jumping the gun. Remember Freddy? I do
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The item type change WAS in the PTB! There was ample time to test it out, and I bet the players did, since it affected playing against Singularity and improved flashbang gameplay.
Freddy nerfs after release were a whole different story, that does not even remotely apply here. With Freddy, there was an outcry of survivors that Freddy is too strong, so they indeed "jumped the gun" and overnerfed him as an reaction. With this item change, there was no outcry! No ever so loud minority forcing Franklins to not work on killer items. Nothing for the devs to REACT to. So your claim that they are "jumping the gun " here misses the mark by miles. If anything, it is complained about now (at least in this thread), so if they were to change something about that now, THAT would be jumping the gun!
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No counter? How about ... DOWNING them?
You can not even repair properly while holding the cube, bc the chains will interrupt any channeling action. A player purposefully holding the cube to deny it effectively takes themselve out of the game, so you only have to deal with 3 ppl until they solve it again.
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Another whole playstyle removed in the name of game balance.
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