Suggestion: Remove Adrenaline effect of ignoring Exhaustion
Hello ppl of the fog,
today I had to witness (again) a surv chaining SB with a well timed Adrenaline, which honestly is really frustrating from the killer perspective. Not only Adre healing and giving speed boost, but ALSO flat out ignoring the exhaustion from previous SB just seconds before. This chaining of exhaustion effects is really problematic imo. Just think about all the conditions you have to do for using Blood Rush, a perk DESIGNED for chaining exhaustion effects.
I can see that this aspect of ignoring exhaustion was necessary in the past, since you did not know (in solo Q) when that last gen would pop. Ignoring exhaustion would guarantee you to get the effect. BUT, now that we have a HUD were you can see the state of the gens, you no longer have to coordinate Adre activating via comms, making it way easier to chain exhaustion effects, even in solo Q.
So I 'm thinking, the effect of Adre to ignore exhaustion should be removed, so you can only get the speed boost when you are not exhausted before (the heal would be applied even when exhausted). It's a part of a very old Dbd time (last change to the perk was 1.8), which does not have a place in current Dbd anymore, imo. With the new HUD, you are perfectly fine to manage your exhaustion perks, to make sure you get the exhaustion effect from Adre when you want to. But you wouldn't be able to chain SB or Lithe into Adre anymore.
I feel that would be a really minor change to remove the most aggravating situations with Adre for the killer, without really impacting it's core features. It would make the perk slightly more skillful to use, and give the killer a way to counter it (by using exhaustion perks / addons).
What do you think?
Comments
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Even as a predominantly killer player I will have to disagree with this. This is a perk interaction that makes sense for adrenaline and the most problematic part of the perk is the instant heal because a fast survivor with only one health state to worry about is much better than a normal speed survivor with 2 health states.
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The instant heal will likely never go away, the perk would be too weak without it. So whats left for adjusting is the sprint and the exhaustion ignore. About the sprint, many have already suggested to make Adre only give one, heal OR sprint. So that's nothing new.
BUT, I cannot recal an instance were someone suggested to remove the exhaustion ignore effect. That's a rather new take (atleast for me), so I posted about it. And imo, nerfing that aspect is actually justified just bc. of ther HUD changes.
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People don't suggest it because that is how it used to work and the way it works now with ignoring exhaustion is a QoL to make the perk work more consistently.
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Just because it worked like this for years does not mean it has to be set in stone. If anything, it shows how outdated the perk is.
And like I said, with the addition of the HUD icons, you can totally get consistent value out of it even without the ignoring effect. Not to mention that we are only talking about the sprint here, the heal would come either was. You just have to play a bit smarter then, not brainlessly use your exhaustion perks since you know you will still get you Adre sprint.
Let me ask you, what is your opinion on Adre? Is it fine or does it need a nerf / some toning down?
For me, it's a little bit to strong, esp. in swf. It's far from being "high risk, high reward" imo (that only applies to solo Q). With the right team, it's more of a "win harder" perk. How often does it really help a group that is struggling? I see it in my solo games, where we fight hard to get the last gens done and you really hope the one on dead hook being chased has it, but they usually don't. But where do you see it to great effect? 4 man groups rushing through the gens with resilience not bothering to heal bc they have Adre. And the one person you are chasing when the last gen pops just timed their other exhaustion perk right to get the double sprint boost.
So, how to nerf it? Removing the heal would kill it. Making it exclusively heal or sprint boost might work, but that also hurts solo more than swf than can coordinate well. But removing the exhaustion ignore would hurt SWF more than solo's, bc only the former can make make use of it consistently ("wait a sec for my SB to wear of, then pop the gen!"). And with the HUD changes, you have enough info available to not unintentionally use an exhaustion perk seconds before Adre pops.
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As a mostly killer player I find it much more annoying that I can be mid chase with an injured survivor and they suddenly just get the whole health state I just took back which resets the chase to square one. Survivors just being faster for a few seconds is much more tolerable because depending on your killer and if they happen to misplay their speed boost at loop I have ways to capitalize on it to get the down. There isn't much to do when they get a health state and speed boost cause even if I counter the speed they still get to jog on. Removing the heal would kill the usage of the perk because it would just be hope which is a perk we already have.
In the past adrenaline was actually extremely popular, but also extremely inconsistent as it lost the speed during exhaustion and the perk would proc and burn out if you were hooked. The QoL changes it received over time made the perk overall more consistent which is better for survivor play which is ultimately fine. It's only when you have like multiple people with it where it feels super annoying. I think it is important to keep in mind that the HUD has no more effect on Adrenaline than comms does as the perk isn't reliant on timing anymore and hasn't been for years. It either works or doesn't which is just cleaner design overall.
If you really are deadset on putting a nerf out there just make the speed boost 125% for 3 seconds and remove the interaction with Freddy's power because that's literally something that was only needed when Freddy had his old power and no longer makes sense with his current power. It would weaken it just enough to still be worth running, but not feel as bad to play against and Freddy would be able to outplay adrenaline gamers since they'd be susceptible to his power
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Moving goalpost again. Adrenaline was perfectly fine perk during old DH. The perk is good - the only thing is, that everything better was nerfed to the ground, so suddenly it's OP and needs nerf? Where's the end? Current buckle up?
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Nice strawmanning.
As I already mentioned, the HUD changes make it more consistent of capitalizing the "ignore exhaustion" effect (aka triggering double sprints). Before only swf / voice could do this, now everyone can (although swf is still better at this). The "ignore exhaustion" effect had it's place before the HUD update, just for making the perk overall more consistent to use. But now, thats really not necessary, bc you can SEE when it will proc in the HUD.
Also, were in the world is my proposed change "nerfing it to the ground"? The heal stays the same, the sprint stays the same (when it triggers). It's explicitly a change to prevent a very annoying "tech" (using it for double speed) thats part of old dbd, but does not have a place in current dbd anymore. Just compare this to Blood Rush, a perk DESIGNED for something like double speed, and how hard that is to pull off (could use a buff for sure). Last but not least, removing the ignore effect would require some more skill / planning to use Adre and other exhaustion perks together.
So, tell me why this is "too much" for you? About "moving goalpost", the addition of the HUD icons effectively DID move the Adre goalpost as well, albeit very minor. The game evolves, perks, addons and powers have to be adjusted over time. And Adre dodged adjustments for long enough, really (last change was patch 1.8.1).
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Freddys interaction should be removed, thats for sure.
But I feel reducing the boost to 125% for 3 seconds would hit it way harder then just removing the ignore effect, don't you think?
Why do you think reducing the boost is better than removing the ignore, just because of the consistency reason (genuine question)?
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Adrenaline is fine. I'm not sure why you bring Blood Rush into this, no one uses it specifically because it has too many conditions. If anything Blood Rush should get a buff but Adrenaline doesn't need a nerf.
Solo q survivors being able to pull off things that were only possible in swf is a good thing.
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Because exactly this:
Plus also - every perk is suddenly OP and needs nerf as long as the previous one gets nerfed. That's what I call moving goalpost. A year ago the perk was exactly the same and nobody even mentioned the perk. HUD didn't add anything to the perk. It just added ability to use the exactly same perk not even to the same capacity as SWF can.
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I don't think Adrenaline needs nerfs, but here some suggestions:
- Adrenaline doesn't activate after being unhooked
- Adrenaline makes you exhausted for the rest of the trial
- Remove the interaction with Freddy
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I agree,
This perk I face in all my matches along side prove thyself and it's really annoying.
Not only do survivors get to gen rush in record time, they also get rewarded for playing poorly or recklessly since one the last fen inevitably, they run to the gate from across the map scot free everytimed.
I would killswitch adrenaline until fixed.
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At 125% for 3 seconds the perk is still fairly strong and useful in escape situations, but not overly so. You still have perk synergy with other movement speed increasing perks as well as you health state. 150% for 5 seconds isn't overly strong, but if we're talking a sensible nerf that isn't removing the health state then you can only trim the either the time and boost amount. That's an issue older perks have from the release of DBD is that they are extremely basic to the point where changing them is literally either make it no do a thing and do a new thing or just change the numbers until it feels more inline with what you want balance wise.
Removing the ignore runs counter to the thought process that Adrenaline is supposed to push past exhaustion both in a gameplay sense and just a thematic sense. That's kinda how it works IRL as well a surge of adrenaline pushes a person past the usual limits even if they are exhausted, but it's short term. Personally I would prefer if Adrenaline just gave the speed boost and only gave the heal if they were slugged that way sure they would be faster for a bit, but they wouldn't completely reset a chase in the endgame.
Post edited by ReikoMori on0 -
Currently, Adrenaline is very, very popular... (if I remember correctly, about 30% of usage). I keep seeing streamers face multiple adrenalines in almost every match. Which, by BHVR's new standards of nerfing what's used too much, means that it will probably get nerfed soon-ish.
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Just nerf the 150% Movement Speed duration, it should be 3-seconds like most other Exhaustion perks, in my opinion.
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I don'T and didn't say its OP. I'm saying it's a bit overtuned (not suprising for a perk that went unchanged for YEARS now). It's no real issue when just one or two have it. But when the whole team has it, and uses it to speedrun gens and don't bother healing, that IS problematic. If we don't want extensive 3-genning that makes games last longer than 30 minutes (for good reason), we should also try to avoid 5 minute matches.
Yes, HUD added possibilty to faciliate the exhaust ignore for solo Q as well. And to know WHEN adre will proc. Thats exactly my point, when you know when Adre will activate due to the new HUD, you don't NEED the exhaust ignore effect for perk consistancy anymore!
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I'm bringing Blood Rush to the conversation to highlight that ignoring / resetting exhaustion is a pretty powerful effect! So powerful that devs make a perk DESIGNATED for that purpose really difficult to activate. Sure it might be a bit to difficult, but that does not diminish the potential power of resetting exhaustion at will. But Adre does just do it out of the box, without any additional steps. The only thing holding that aspect of Adre a little back is you need others to proc the last gen. Which is a non issue in swf.
Adre is already insanely strong, when it activates. And would still be really strong even without the ignore exhaust effect. But even that slight adjustment is just too much?
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That would be a big help as well.
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Correct, it's pickrate increased slowly but steadily for the last couple of months. And thats also why the perk gets more and more problematic, when all run it and don't bother to slow down for healing.
That's why I thought about how the perk could be adjusted without hitting it too hard.
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Ok, so your concern is that removing the exhaust ignore would go against the perks intention. I can accept that, although thats a no-issue for me.
125% for 3 seconds would be ok as well, iguess, but maybe only when they got healed as well. Otherwise 150% for 3s (without heal).
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Killswitch? It's not breaking the game. Sure it sucks when it heals ALL of them with the last gen, but you still have the chance to kill them before the last gen pops (how small that chance may be).
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The reason for that is not buffs to adren. The reason is, that everything else gets nerfed. The same can be said about jolt. Is it OP now? It has very high pick rate right now. Should be nerf it based on numbers? No. It didn't change. It's same strength as it always was. It's just that everything else was nerfed to the ground. Same thing for adren as for jolt
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as a 1700 hours killer player, I disagree. Theres this kind of silly effect adrenaline has on people. As a killer it feel super op bc you have to eat one mid chase almost every game because everyone uses it and the gens always get done. But as survivor the only value you get is getting to the gate faster 😭
I used to really hate adrenaline until I tried using it when I play survivor. Most of the time I either die or just dont get much value period. But its just so fun and strong I can stop! Seriously, just the insta heal feels so good. Its like a massive reward for not dying yet, like "hey you made it! in soloQ! here, have a free chase reset". Its a pretty balanced perk. It doesn nothing all game and requires you to survive to endgame, and even then value isnt guaranteed. Sure if you are injured you get value, but thats typically about it. Very rarely to I get the last gen to pop right as wesker's closing in on me.
the only nerfs for adrenaline I can think of would be that it doesnt res you and doesnt hold for you while carried/downed. The design of the perk is all about being a reward for playing well, so if its gonna get nerfed then it should be this. I love that it does those things, but I did lose the chase.
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Well yeah everything is stronger in SWF. Ex: are we really gonna nerf CoH again because swfs use it super well?
Adrenaline is a super well designed and balanced perk. Its absolutely risk-reward as well. For every adrenaline someone equips, they aren't equipping deliverance or prove or some other meta perk they could. Their taking the risk of bring 3 perks in hope that they survive til endgame for a massive reward. Adrenalines just one of those perks that feels really op from the killer end, I say this as a 1700 hour killer main. I used to hate adrenaline until i started using it as survivor. Half the time I die and the other half I make it and get insta healed. Very, very rarely do I get it to pop mid chase. That happens a ton from the killer perspective because everyones running it, so if you are chasing someone when the last gen pops theres a sizeable chance they've got adrenaline. but trust me it is not common. And even if it was that common, surviving til endgame with just 3 perks deserves that kind of reward.
Like they said, adrenaline used to not push through exhaustion and it was stupid. Exhaustion perks are the strongest and most fun survivor perk type. Everyone wants to use one and everyone does. Adrenaline is a reward for survival, so why should the survivor not get their reward because they brought an exhaustion perk? Imagine if you didnt get NWO because someone was on hook or you brought noed or smth. its just stupid, you spend all game earning it just for it to do nothing.
the SB into adrenaline thing rarely happens anyways. And plus if they got adrenaline, even without that SB that chase was lost. Besides, the point of adrenaline being able to pop mid chase to begin with is as a reward for not going down yet along with not dying.
if anything it should hold on hook for you, as you did lose the chase and still get rewarded. but I think its fine as is.
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The difference is, jolt can only be brought once, while Adre can be brought up to 4 times. And Adre gets more problematic the more ppl have it. Its one of very few perks were your action as a surv directly benefits other players, possibly FAR away. Think about it as a remote heal AND sprint burst for the one being chased. The higher the pick rate of Adre, the more urgent it is to nerf it, really! Just think about the extreme of having adre on every player all the time. You can practially just scrap end game all together and let the survs auto-escape once all gens are done then.
Adre sits way too high in pick rate currently (over 30% according to nightlight). And I don't buy the notion that there's no other thing to run. There are many solid and slept-on perks, they are just not as "op" as adre is. Jolt is in a healthier spot (shy of 20% according to nightlight). It has it's limitations (only basic attack), and when you recognize the killer has it, can try to play around it (going down far away form gens, jump into locker). Adre does not have that limitations or counterplay. The only condition is to get all gens done. That can be difficult to achive in solo Q, but is fairly easy with coordinated swf. There's no counterplay for the killer, Terminus can deny heal, but the sprint always comes through. Noed is usually gone after the first down, often even before.
And thats exactly what i want to tackle with the remove of the ignore exhaustion effect: Giving it some more limitation (may not be exhausted, so no SB into ADRE), and simultaniously give killers a way to counter it (exhaustion addon's or perks). It's still in the power of the survs to finish the last gen, so they can even counter the killer counterplay by waiting out exhaustion effects before popping the last gen.
I totally agree that nerfing around stats may not be the right approach in the general case. But that does not negate the fact that there can still be situation where the pick rate absolutely has an impact on the severeness of an issue. I would say it's generally a good guideline for survivor perks: Is the perk getting problematic when run by all four survivors? That certainly was the situation with other prominent survivor perk nerfs (old DS, initial MoM, old and new DH). Adre imo falls in the same category, the killer looses all pressure during end game when all survs run it (and the killer does not have one on a hook).
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"Like they said, adrenaline used to not push through exhaustion and it was stupid. Exhaustion perks are the strongest and most fun survivor perk type. Everyone wants to use one and everyone does. Adrenaline is a reward for survival, so why should the survivor not get their reward because they brought an exhaustion perk? Imagine if you didnt get NWO because someone was on hook or you brought noed or smth. its just stupid, you spend all game earning it just for it to do nothing."
They would still get the heal as reward, so no "nothing". Does anyone even READ what I'm proposing? Only the boost would be negated when still exhausted. And since they now with the HUD when the last gen will likely pop, they can plan for it and do not use an exhaustion perk when adre is bound to happen. But requiring survs to plan for their perks to activate is obviously too much to ask -.-.
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Sorry if this was already recommended but I also think the insta heal should not proc if the killer is using Terminus. If Terminus inflicts broken, there's no reason it shouldn't be applied to insta-heals like Adrenaline.
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The problem with nerfing Adrenaline in any way is you only get it once... so it has to do a lot for you to be worth it.
The introduction of exhaustion remaining active on the sprint effect as a result of the HUD giving out info is not a bad idea tbh, but as other have said, it makes the perk too weak to use as a 1 time thing, as the reason you want it is to save your ass if you're in the final chase, which will most likely mean you're already exhausted.
If it must get nerfed because its too popular, I personally would suggest something like it simply removing exhaustion immediately. 1 of SB, Lithe, BL, all become a requirement to get the mileage, but at least that is then allowing Survivors to get the effect at the cost of 2 perk slots instead of 1... and you're probably taking 1 of these anyway so no foul.
The nicely of this is it means only the survivor in chase really gets the benefit without thinking about it. Other survivors would need to preemptively spend their exhaustion perk to run towards the gate to then get it back, and at least one player must be on a gen, so as killer you won't suddenly have all 4 sprint across the map...
This brings on the intelligent use of the hud you want, without shafting the main reason the survivor wants it... and these Endurance perks don't last as long as current Adrenaline, so isn't QUITE as punishing.
But that's my 2 cents.
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Unless Terminus is bugged again, it already does stop the heal from Adrenaline (from injured to healthy, at least).
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It does not proc when you have Terminus. The survivors will only sprint away without being healed. Whats also nice with the perk, when survivors cleanse at a Plague fountain, they only lose their infection, but stay broken ^^.
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Thats an interesting take. So Adre would no longer give a speedboost itself, but remove Exhaustion instead. It would not prevent the situation I was aiming for (get rid of double boosts), but that would only be an issue with a SB user. And even then, they only get 3 instead of 5 seonds boost. With Lithe and BL, a player has to time it really well to get the effect soon enough, so there's some skill involved. And the killer will expect that and try to counter the activation. Other survs outside of chase would at least be slowed down compared to now, since they won't have the 5s speedboost (maybe 3s bc of SB), but get to keep their exhaustion perk for ladder (when playing Head on and Adre, I regularly forget that Head on won't work bc af adre's exhaustion. That wouldn'T be the case anymore ^^). Ans last but not least, if you don't run an exhaustion perk besides Adre, you won't have nothing from the exhaustion removal. So like you said, you have to commit two perk slots for your end game sprint (same with bloodrush).
The more I think about it, the more I like that suggestion. Thx for sharing it :)
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About 20% of my killer games never see last gen pop. If 4 ppl brought adren all the time, the percentage would only go up.
Also adren is best when it's just 1 person that have it. It allows chance at hook rescue even against such a campers as bubba, which is a good thing. Alternatively person with it can try to chase.
But it's much more likely the perk works exactly as 1-time heal and a bit quicker movement on a map.
Also the perk has counters while being carried or right after downing (killer can drop into hit or hit again - the perk freezes you in animation in both cases). So it's not just about completing gens. It's also about luck.
Jolt being only M1 perk - which removes a lot of killers that just down do M1 hits enough (think bubba, blight, wesker, huntress, ...) artificially lower the percentage. So 20% pick rate on killer (where every killer has different kit that synergize with different kind of perks) is arguably more problematic, then 30% on a single-type survivors.
Meaning you can either go by stats and nerf both perks, or go by playing both sides, experiencing those perks and seeing how they don't work a lot of time (compared to your opposing team that only notices when it works). Because I can do the same - the perk is super unhealthy as it does 24% insta damage+regression+info when playing gideon and all this for every single down. That's clearly OP and needs nerfs (but let's ignore locker grabs or any other grab or having the perk on mother's dwelling).
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