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Do You Think Tunnelling and Slugging will Be Addressed like Camping?
For anti-camp, first we got base-kit BT. And devs confirmed there is anti-camp mechanic on the way as well.
Making camping less viable is good on my book, i appreciate devs for working on this.
Do you think same feature will happen for slugging and tunnelling as well or they will just leave them as they are? And bonus question, do you think we need something for slugging & tunnelling?
Comments
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Base-kit BT was also for anti-tunnelling and they and they tried anti-slugging mechanics with base-kit Unbreakable.
So yes I do think they will do something about them at some point. Probably not for awhile, but at some point.
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I don't think they will ever kill slugging totally. What I think is more likely is they will do something about slugging for the 4K. The dragged out ten minutes of slug and pick up is one of the worst things in the game and isn't fun for anyone involved. Either that or the other guy hides while the slug bleeds out. It totally screws up the pace of a game.
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The problem with camping/tunneling is that they ruin the game for casual players but are actually needed and balanced at top level. So if BHVR gets rid of it, they will have to seriously rebalance the game. I hate tunneling/camping as game mechanics, but I acknowledge that it is very hard to win for killer against a good SWF without tunneling.
I don't think BHVR even has the ability to do such a rebalance based on what we've seen in the past years (esp. DS duration nerf, totally backwards...). I still wish they tried more. The casual playerbase is what's the most important for a game ultimately. If there are no casual players left then the game becomes a sweatfest and both sides won't like that. This is what we've been seeing in the past 2 years where both sides think the game is becoming more and more difficult, without realizing that it's not due to balance changes, but rather that the playerbase is half of what it used to be so on average they are playing against much better players than before.
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Both Tunnelling and Slugging have their fair uses as killer tactics, they're only 'unfair' when the killer relies solely on them and 'abuses' them. (much like camping, although camping has even more niche fair use)
Tunnelling off the hook is solved by basekit endurance (so in a way tunnelling has already had the 'anti-' treatment like camping is getting) and has a ton of popular or even meta perks that counter it as well. Could these be improved? Possibly, but it's not in an awful place right now.
Tunnelling outside of 'off the hook' is as much down to survivor play as it is the killer, if you don't make yourself found you won't get tunnelled, and if your team mates take aggro you'll get the chance to evade the killer further.
Slugging an individual survivor here and there is fine, and has basekit workarounds by way of other survivors picking you up, along with a plethora of perks to aid with this. This is an intentional way of the killer building pressure.
Slugging all survivors at once however, is problematic. It's high risk high reward for sure, but much like camping, it's avoiding a normal gameplay loop and preventing others from taking part. So I do think something needs to be added to circumvent this. My suggestion would be an effect that activates when no survivors are standing (so either all survivors are slugged, or a mix of slugged, hooked and sacrificed) and allows one survivor to pick themselves up without a perk. Once they're up, the effect obviously deactivates. So this wouldn't be oppressive in any regular game, and would only come into play when the killer is trying to slug everyone at once.
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I don't think they will kill camping & tunnelling either. The point is they are trying to make them less viable but keeping in game as options.
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Did they mention when this anti camping update is coming out, asking on my second round in a row of being face camped at 3 gens........
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I think they said 'summer'? (correct me if I'm wrong) So probably in the next chapter (late August) or potentially as late as the following midchapter (early October).
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Am I the only one who sees a great difference between an anti-camping feature some players envision and the anti-facecamp feature they actually announced? I feel those who think it's the same thing will be terribly disappointed once the new system goes live.
I don't think they'll do anything with slugging or tunneling, just as they aren't making an anti-camping feature either.
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To me the only correct way to adress tinneling,camping slugging is to change core gameplay and win conditions.
To me is not fair something like, to prevent tunneling X survivor gain Y buffs.
Rather we change this thing so the most optimal play is not tunnel and reward spread hooks.
Wich is not possible right now. Game should be balance en hooks not on kills.
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Yes I'm sure those more survivor-sided will be disappointed that it doesn't completely prevent all forms of camping, but that's not the intention anyway. It will force killers to camp at a medium distance, which in most cases will provide survivors with openings to go for a save attempt, even if the killer makes it back for a hit once the save has been made, and that's the important thing.
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It might. The only issue is, that they cannot do it in the way that many players would like that to happen.
What do you think will happen, if the killer is punished for all 3 of these strategies? I can tell you, kill rates drop significantly and you'll see a decrease in the number of killer players. It's not only that they will have to make sure whatever mechanic they add can't be abused but also that this will need to happen with compensatory buffs for killers.
I'm all for it but really it is not a simple "Just add 10 seconds DS base kit, base kit Unbreakable and be done with it."
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This.
Also their proposed fix won't stop camping, they'll just find the sweet spot and camp there instead. You can rescue them sure, but they'll just end up on the ground again most likely. Also certain addons and perks that cause exposed/one hit downs will still be a thing. For example Huntress could throw her one hit down hatchet while being outside the camping circle at the unhooker.
I honestly don't like posting on forums anymore because of the us vs. them stuff and inability to see things objectively then on top of that BHVR seem completely oblivious to their own game (Trapper is fine lolol no) but this really sums it up. The game is balanced around camping and tunnelling these days. Take them away and survivors win every game at higher levels.
You could very easily kill camping and tunnelling by using pyramid mechanics on hooks and making it so there's no unhook notification, interface doesn't immediately and the killer cannot see the survivor and certain unhook related perks (make your choice/devour/floods of rage) are reworked, but that would basically make the game impossible for killer. I still think this is a good idea but you'd have to overall the whole game balance to do it and that will never happen.
It is a dream that will never get fulfilled.
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Other assym games have somehow managed to avoid camping/tunneling/slugging scenarios. They don’t allow one player to hijack the gaming experience of other players. BHVR doesn’t need to reinvent the wheel here.
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I'm more concerned with the numbers when a survivor is around the hook since the timer doesn't stop when a survivor is near it just slows down and it still considered camping when the Killer is on a 2nd floor of a two story map or killer shack...I can see survivors and killers weaponizing it.
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If you make those less viable, then you will have zero viable options against certain groups of survivors.
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Base kit BT is for tunneling, so , probably not for this point
And for slugging, probably nothing gonna be done about that
Like the old system for anti camping, people got crazy about the finisher mori, so, nah, probably nothing are going to be done for slugging, and it probably become one of the only strategy that Killer gonna use
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And this will open chance for killers who is not performing well. A lot killers are not getting buffs because their kill rates boosted by camping & tunnelling.
Just Trapper for example, devs said they are not gonna buff him because he is good, even at high mmr. But on my games, Trappers are usually getting kills by tunnelling and camping.
We need better gameplay for both sides and for that, we need to kill some unhealthy plays.
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Tunneling and camping is not fun but sometimes it is what you need for the Killer to win the match.
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Kill rates are boosted not by camping or tunnelling but by survivors being clowns who refuse to play or intentionally give up. So far I don't see any solution to this problem being suggested, other than more harsh penalties to such survivors.
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Na, the new mechanic will not stop camping. You aren't gonna escape a bubba because he can 2 hit you with his saw when you unhook yourself. You aren't escaping a basement against a huntress, or a trapper who setup a perimeter around the basement.
All this mechanic will do, is not actually punish the campers, and just punish killers who are playing the game normally while SWF abuse the mechanic because this game wasn't designed around having coms and make the game more miserable for everyone. Because it won't actually do the job it is supposed to do.
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All of that will drastically extend the time it takes to camp someone out. It's never meant to prevent killers from executing player agency and choosing to camp, it simply makes it less profitable for them. Instead of standing there for a solid 120 seconds, you have two instances of 20+ second re-chases to get them back on the hook thrown into the mix. The time it takes to re-down and hook the survivor is extra time the rest can be slamming gens and escaping. That leads to more 1K campers than 2K+ campers, and thus leads to an overall average reduction in 5 gen camping prevalence.
And if you're not actually camping, then you have nothing to worry about. That's what the buffer zones, and the speed reduction from other present survivors is for.
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If you want to address the camping and tunneling permanently then you would have to remove the hook mechanic.
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If you wanna take away all of that then we also gotta seriously look at Gen Rushing, God windows and pallets, Toolboxes, gen perks, etc.
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Basement Bubba's out here ready for the challenge.
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Fun-fact: the anti-facecamp distance is going to be 16 meters - exactly the same as Kindred range. My Insidious Bubba learned early to stand outside of that. I also practiced double-tapping with Speed-Limiter, so I should be good. :]
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Yes, yes! -rubs hands together in devious manner-
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Giving up is not happening that much. At least for me. I can't talk for your mmr ofcourse.
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With these discussions its always a question of whether we're discussing SWF, soloq, or trying to walk the line between both. I'm more concerned with what is or is not fun game play as a primary element, with balance being a secondary concern.
Facecamping is never fun and BHVR should try and remove it.
Being slugged is no more inherently bad than being on the hook (boring, but part of a game like this), and only becomes a problem when a killer just lets someone bleed out for 4 minutes. While I hated the suggestion the first time I heard it, a give up option should be available in certain slugged situations (say at least one survivor out of the game, been on the ground at least 30 seconds).
Tunneling can never be done away with without a significant restructure of the game. BHVR could make it harder, and there are various ideas of differing complexity on how. I don't have that much of a problem with tunneling when I'm the one being targeted, at least I'm playing the game and there are things a survivor should do if the clear tunnel tagret, but it makes for a very boring game in soloq when the killer eliminates someone else really quickly and you are no longer in a competitive game.
As for whether such things will be addressed? I find it unlikely.
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Even if you aren't camping you will be punished. SWF will figure out how to do it, and it really depends on the numbers. But with multi-floor maps, you can have many situations where you aren't actually camping, but the game thinks you are, even though it would take you a solid 15-20 seconds to get to the hook because you have to walk all the way around. For example midwich has plenty of these areas and the floor is very thin. Ranges in this game work off of a bubble around the thing, not actual walking/pathing distance, so killers WILL be punished when they aren't camping and campers won't actually be punished because they are still gonna be able to do it.
I'm surprised they didn't just make hooks work like PH cages where if you are too near it, you get teleported to a different hook. Not saying that is a good option, but it is probably better than the proposed system.
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I would be totally fine with them removing slugging for 4k if the last kill wasnt luck based then on who finds the hatch first.
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Do you often spend considerable amount of time alone in a random 16m radius as killer?
If no, the anti-facecamp feature shouldn't affect you when you aren't camping. A half-filled self-unhook bar has the exact same effect as an empty one.
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Ranges in this game work off of a bubble around the thing
They actually work in cylinders, not bubbles, so it's technically worse than you're implying. So yes, multi levels would be problematic, but nothing you can't work around as the killer. When I'm 'not camping' as the killer, I'm not standing below them on a separate floor. If I do that, other survivors still hear my TR on the hooked survivor, and refuse to go for the save, and also my non-camping perks like Devour and Make Your Choice don't work.
However, the most recent chapter shows that they can limit area effects vertically too. So they may decide to implement a height limit.
I'm surprised they didn't just make hooks work like PH cages where if you are too near it, you get teleported to a different hook. Not saying that is a good option, but it is probably better than the proposed system.
That would make it impossible to camp, which is robbing the killer of agency. Camping is still a viable strategy.
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If you mean slugging for the 4k, sure. But slugging in general is the counter to flashlights and being downed near pallets and saves and such. There are also many perks in the game that are about that. So, i doubt that will change, nor should it. It is a different way of playing the game that isn't overpowered, so why would they change that?
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It has to be. The final survivor has to have a viable chance of escaping, regardless of how well the game goes up until that point. Otherwise the outcome is determined by the time it gets to 2 survivors, so those last 2 survivors would know that neither of them have a chance of escaping and would give up. This would turn every 2K game into a de facto 4K game, vastly inflating kill rates, which would in turn lead to massive killer nerfs. Every game would be a snowball, either a 4K or a 0/1K.
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Your MMR is showing then if you think that multi-floor won't be a problem when abused by SWF.
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I am not saying that they should remove hatch or anything.
They instead should reword it so its not luck based.
Like for example, once only one Survivor is left the survivor and the killer gets sent to a special trial where the killer has to chase the survivor while the survivor have to reach a certein point to escape.
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Your camping tendencies are showing if you think it will.
In every case where SWF are hook bombing, it invariably results in a hook save of some kind, trying to defend it is pointless. Instead you capitalise on downing the survivors attempting the rescue, getting hook trades or multiple slugs in the vicinity. The hooked survivor will probably be rescued, but you'll score more hooks in the process and the SWFs over-altruism is their downfall.
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No. The devs seem to want to encourage chase and map pressure. Both tunnelling and slugging tick at least one of those boxes. Camping is doing none of those things. It's literally just standing still waiting for the next survivor to come along to stick them on a hook and camp that too.
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Yes camping and slugging tactics suck, but that is the nature of the beast. Nerfs to killer tactics will only lead to scummier ones which will eventually get to a point to where it's not even worth playing killer. Like a Deer getting upset that it's predator is vegetarian because it's predator isn't allowed to kill.
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They need to rebalance the game from the base if they want to remove tunneling and camping, band aid fixes won’t fix that.
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Easiest way to balance this game is make Comms base for all survivors. That way you can balance killers to SWF levels, and all is well. If a survivor chooses to screw up him and his teammates by muting chat, that's on them and sorry for your luck. Problem solved nice and easy. Took 2 minutes of critical thinking about how this game works.
The whole problem with the game is solo survivors, BHVR tries to balance around them and SWF which leaves killers in a non power role spot. SWFs are too strong, solo's are lost. You can't balance for both. So if you give all survivors map wide comms, you can balance for SWFs, which is the stronger of the two anyway. If you balance for SWFs, you can buff all killers considerable because they need to be much stronger to deal with 4 people on comms all the time.
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Absolutely not. Making more SWFs doesn't solve the issue that those who do not use or do not want to use voice chat are disadvantaged.
If anything, making SWF more accessible and prevalent will just result in killer buffs, which would mean that survivors who do not want to use voice chat, will be even further disadvantaged.
Most people choose not to use voice comms intentionally. They don't want to be berated by 13 year olds trying out slurs for the first time, they don't want to have to listen to random players crappy music being blasted through their speakers, they don't want to be distracted by what other people are saying. Those who do use voice comms, choose to use voice comms with their friends, not with random players. Most survivors play solo, SWF accounts for somewhere around 10-15% of the playerbase. You'll be alienating 85% of survivors.
Your 2 minutes (if that) of thinking wasn't anywhere near critical enough.
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4 people swf is 15%, swf in general is closer to 50%.
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"Sometimes" ok
But what if is "Always"?
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And you think those partial SWFs want to hear crap from the randoms in their lobby? Nope
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Giving up happens far more often than you may think.
For me, that happens when I play as survivor or killer. In both cases it's because someone got a bad start or they fail to do their quest. It's certainly not MMR related.
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One worry I would have with all these adjustments is how far they could go.
As an example, the BT basekit used for people becoming unhooked was an anti-tunnel idea. Killers can wait this out and people still are upset about it. So, how much more needs to be done to appease this and how far will the leniency be stretched? There's only so much leeway available and, no matter how much is given, some people will still complain it's not enough.
A point will be reached when these issues can no longer be blamed on gaming mechanics and the problem is weighted purely on just the flow of the game itself. Otherwise it just becomes hand-holding all the way, which might be detrimental to the game. The questions are: where is that point, and will it ever be enough?
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I'm gonna be honest, them not trying to tackle tunneling and camping as issues and considering them "Strategies" is just their way of getting rid of any responsability for poor balancing.
In no game the core mechanic for winning is just standing still until the end of the match, but it's easier to leave it like that and let the community fight amongst themselves than actually coming up with a proper set of rules and mechanics rework so actually playing the game is way more effective than not doing so.
BHVR is terrible when it comes to actual fixes, always opting for releasing extremely situationa perks to "fix" issues and avoid responsability by saying "Well, the perk is there. Maybe you should equip it?".
And this is not a "this side" or "that side" issue. Reassurance and Shattered Hope are in the exact same position being bandaid solutions to avoid responsabilities instead of coming up with actual fixes.
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I agree with you. I would also add, that it's a very convenient way for BHVR to redirect player's hate towards each other ("my teammates suck", "killer is a tryhard") rather than at the devs for lazy balancing. Still, the situation is what it is, the game is now balanced around tunneling and camping, so if you would suddenly remove them it would become extremely survivor-sided at top level, and that needs to be acknowledged by survivors. Yes ideally that situation should have been prevented much earlier but it's not a very constructive debate. The persons in charge of balance now might not even be the same as those who let that happen.
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They could also make a ping system. And some canned phrases like "gen is almost complete", "I need healing" etc.
And being able to see your teammates perks. If I know I have a No Mither player I might want to leave (lol) ok joking. But to play around No Mither you also have to enable them. You do that by staying close and bringing a flashlight preferable to annoy the killer so they get their chance to get up. If you see your mate brought Deliverance maybe you know to let him get the rescue, or eat the first hook if he's been focused on early on etc.
I understand coms can be an issue for many people, but we could really bridge the gap with alternatives like the one I mentioned above. At least now solo's will be able to co-ordinate.
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