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Just a reminder that people will defend anything
Comments
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The fuss people are making over Made For This is strange to me. Ive tried it several times, and the impact is is minimal, and only then when used aginst slower killers and combo'd with Hope. I even had someone think i were too fast, and because of it they thought i was running this perk, then when they seen that I wasnt i was accused of cheating, yet the fact was they ran the tile the wrong way and allowed me to take the window more, and ontop of that I had a window block using the eevent invitation. Y'all are seriously giving this perk too much credit.
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Always find it funny when data shows a overturned/problematic perk ppl enjoy using they defend the whole data being used to balance argument. But the second it's something they hate or don't like, say nurse, they are all like "you can't balance the on data alone!!!" You can't have it both ways people. It's either balance the game around statistics or not.
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Except statistics are nuanced and context matters and they can be misused and misinterpreted like everything else?
What is your point?
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You lost me when you listed No Mither in fun perks lol. This perk is just terrible bad and far away from being "fun".
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Let's be real here behavior never going to buff/rework m1 killers. They rather nerf perks because it's easier to do that then having to look at every killer in their large roster. Remember that Twins rework that was promised? How long was that teased? Oh more than a year ago and we still are no where near to that. Also look at the killers who could use updates like Trapper and Myers. The deb team thinks those killers are just fine bc of "data". At the end of the day the devs don't want to touch killers they rather touch perks instead. That something we all should realize. So yeah I agree they should buff m1 killers but they never will so why even ask.
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My point is ppl are hypocrites. They fine with the devs using data if the data shows that thing they like is "fine" but will complain about something they hate even though the data shows it's "fine" also. For example most survivors say MtF is fine because the data says it is but want nurse to be nerfed even though the data shows she isn't anymore powerful than the other killers (look at the last kill rate the devs posted months ago). For me I disagree with both of these because I know data doesn't show the whole story. MtF is a problematic perk and nurse is a problematic killer. By the way I'm not comparing these two I'm just using them as examples.
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Im guessing you havent played in a SWF in awhile? No Mither is fun if you have friends to help make the perk work, if you are SoloQ it is useless.
But I guess that further proves my point. The strength of a perk is far more important to most players, there is a reason why there is a "meta" to begin with, people want to win, they will bring anything they can to ensure that, "fun" doesnt matter to most people since they would rather win.
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"If the devs see an issue they'll nerf it!" It took a year and a half for COH to get nerfed lol
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CoH was fine tho. I don't understand why they nerfed it.
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That's some serious revisionist history there. Circle had been nerfed 3 different times since it's release, the first nerf was within 3 months of it coming out.
What you probably meant to say was that it took them over a year and a half to finally delete the perk.
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No because the 'nerfs' they gave it were so meaningless that it didn't change anything lol. They didn't even delete its still extremely strong you just dont get to deny the killer any and all pressure whenever you lose them in chase now
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Pre conspicuous nerf DS and PTB OTR were fine, with exception of bodyblocking forcing killer to tunnel which is basically no different than today
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It sounds like we disagree on MFT, but I really like your take here.
With respect to any competition, people arrive with the expectation that the game/event will provide the entertainment while the player puts themself in the best position for success--not the other way around. It is naive to think that people will sabotage themselves in order to have more fun. People will at times exhibit such behaviors, but it was always the game's repsonsibility to bring the fun, just as it was the player's responsibility to bring the challenge to other competitors.
You bring up a really great point about old Dead Hard. While players were frustrated with their perceived 'lose/lose' scenarios, the perk was creating opportunities for Killers and Survivors to exercise their skill over one another. Between DH and MFT, Dead Hard facilitates a far more interesting gameplay experience.
I also don't see what is so "fun" about MFT. I know I've been defending it, but like... what is so fun about going 3% faster?
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It took them a year and a half to make it an s tier perk to a b or c tier perk. They nerfed it a couple of times before then but it was still s tier
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The removal of stacking and lowering the heal bonus by half, while keeping the self heal penalty were anything but small nerfs.
Current complaints went from 'everyone can heal' to 'now it's so annoying to heal that everyone is just doing gens while injured'.
Which, coincidentally, is the same kind of complaint that existed before CoH came out.
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Gotta say the most painful thing as billy is when survs intentionally stay injured to use any versions of DH (OG, 1 second endurance, .5 second endurance, etc.) against curves.
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Most of the "fun" perks you listed are garbage and mostly used for trolling.
There is genuinely no way you're saying Red Herring is a fun perk unless you don't care about playing survivor.
Nobody has fun being useless. Especially not in the current game's climate. And acting like strong perks can't be fun is wrong, the only meta survivor perk that's tedious to use is Sprint Burst.
Saying MFT is stronger than old DH?? The only reason it even seems that way is because before DH got nerfed every single killer just expected it always and the only way to get value from it was pallets or doing a dance in the Killer's face. Which most players could not do successfully. Coincidentally, most players also don't get significant value from MFT because they're not good at looping.
Killers are less reliant on perks because they come with powers. Survivor gameplay is completely based on perk loadout. They aren't the same at all.
Blight is considered one of the most overpowered killers in the game and yet he's cited as fun if you want a comparison.
Also, to be fair. Saw only Billy is not how the killer was meant to be played and mostly a community thing.
Intentionally playing a killer wrong and using that as evidence towards a perk being overpowered is makes no sense.
Saying MFT forces a playstyle is so weird, it doesn't change how survivor plays at all. It just extends chases, which plenty of other survivor perks already do.
You know what does force players to a different playstyle?
Bringing a healing load out and then going against plague or legion and being forced to play without perks because of a dice roll.
Sloppy butcher and plaything+pentimento being in almost every game and forcing survivors to play mini games to do anything.
I wonder what the consensus is on that.
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"There is genuinely no way you're saying Red Herring is a fun perk unless you don't care about playing survivor."
Red Herring into Blast MIne? There is a reason why I put Blast Mine as well, but Im guessing we are going to skip over that? Blast Mine after the (unneeded) nerf it got awhile back is harder to pull off, so Red Herring helps you get value more often by leading the Killer to it.
Also your entire argument around that basically translates to "I disagree with what you say, so you clearly dont play Survivor" which is FAR from the truth, considering how I play in SWFs and SoloQ a lot... but that wouldnt fit your argument wouldnt it? So you make things up about me?
And to dive a bit further into that last bit. Im not sure if you are aware, but I moved from Console to PC, I had every perk unlocked for both sides, and all characters with prestige cosmetics prior to moving (it happened after Project W released but before the Halloween Event). I care about both sides, because I play both sides.
"Most people dont get significant value from Made For This because theyre not good at looping"
Okay and many people suck at Nurse, does that mean she is sudden a D-Tier Killer?
Just because people cant use things right doesnt justify having broken things in the game, because it ignores the idea that experiences players can get their hands on it.
Look at Old Old Dead Hard, you could dodge a hit and use it for distance, it provided a huge amount of utility that was unmatched by most other peoples, yet the common defense for it was "it's not a strong perk, I just Dead Hard into walls"... realistically, nobody is talking about the players who suck at using a perk, the argument was never against them in the first place.
"Killers are less reliant on perks because they come with powers."
I thought the common consensus with the community was that Survivor's items equate to Killer's powers due to them occupying the same area in the Loadout. But I digress.
"Survivor gameplay is completely based on a perk loadout."
Hey, you should join me and my SWF for Perk Roulette, it is a great way or improving your looping skills and general knowledge with the game. Also, coming from someone who has done Power Moves twice (PC and Console), I can say that perkless is not that bad if you are strong enough in chase.
"Blight is one of the most overpowered Killers in the game, yet you cited he was fun for reference."
And yet you completely ignored my replies in other discussions regarding Blight... because I guess it doesnt fit your argument so it is easier to ignore it.
I said Blight's basekit is fine, it is rewarding while still challenging to use, and the speed is really quick but still slow enough for people to react. Coming from someone who has played Blight a lot but also played against Blight a lot.
That being said, Blight's addons are insanely problematic, and should be nerfed. An already good and decently strong Killer should not have access to such strong addons.
"Saying Made For This forces a playstyle is weird", "Healing Loadout against Plague or Legion...", "Sloppy + Pentimento + Plaything"
Congratulations, youve learned the concept that multiple things can be an issue all at once.
I never once said those things were "fine in the game", mainly since I never even talked about them but also because I think I can point out many issues with DBD at once and say "these are all an issue".
Of course, sometimes I focus my attention on just one, like anything else, but my opinion on such doesnt change when I talk about a specific thing, multiple things can be problematic even if I talk about one specific thing... it's not hard to understand.
Also my point was that it was strong enough to kill a lot of meme loadouts, things that both Survivors and Killers enjoy facing/using. My point was that a perk, that people think is "fun", is removing other "fun" aspects from the game, and I do not think that is healthy.
"It just extends chases, other perks already do that."
The issue comes with the perks function. Since it literally just provides free distance.
Well, if you are being chased by the Killer, you will probably get hit eventually and become injured. Meeting the requirement for such isnt that hard. Some people act like you have to be injured the entire game to get value but you dont, you get value as soon as you are injured.
3% Haste does not sound like a lot on paper, but you have to consider other things as well. The sides around loops can be cut a lot tighter than Killers because Survivors have smaller hitboxes and collision zones... due to this, you actually make far more distance around a lot of loops.
Ive seen some people compare it to Resilience but Resilience is such a niche perk. It's 9% buff only applies to Vault Speed. Yes it can help within a chase but its effects are minimal. This also is ignoring the idea that there are many maps where Resilience provides less/no value whatsoever within a chase. Made For This provides constant value since you are constantly running within a chase.
That being said, Nurse, Spirit, and Blight, all high tier Killers, can easily just work around this, since their abilities can handle most, if not all, situations in the game. This 3% Haste mostly affects already weak Killers, and makes them weaker. I know some people will say "then just buff Killers then" but we all know BHVR isnt going to do this anytime soon, especially when most of their time and efforts are spent fixing their messy chapter releases.
I see a lot of people arguing that "you cant be Exhausted for it to work, so it makes it balanced" but it is not that much of a downside. There are many Exhaustion perks which work with Made For This because they have niche activation conditions. Dead Hard and Balanced Landing are prime examples, they can be used before you are about to go down and effectively just reset the chase... basically leading to a situation where you get free distance and a chase reset on top of it.
Ive seen people mention "just use Exhaustion addons/perks" because a decent chunk of Killers do not have Exhaustion addons. Also Exhaustion based perks have really niche activation conditions and/or really long cooldowns that make them not worth running. Even for a person who tries to make the most out of perks that other people hate using, I seriously cannot find any reason to run these because they are often just too much work to get any meaningful value from.
I can also go on and on about other nuances but I think youve read enough, nor do I think you care, it's the DBD Forums anyways, so half the people on here wont even read all that I put because "too long, didnt read".
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As a Billy main, I could, at least, respect Dead Hard a lot more, since it required timing. I also still got the hit as well, so ya know, at least I can leave with a little bit more Bloodpoints by the end. I was a meta that just felt better to play against, in my opinion.
Back when Dead Hard was in the meta (which who knows, with Made For This, I reckon it will be meta again), I was thinking about making a Chainsaw into DH montage just as a joke, but considering people's opinions on DH at the time, I decided against it since it would just lead to more people fighting.
But uh yea, I didnt really mind it that much. I prefer Old DH over Made For This.
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-Perks
Using two perks to maybe get value out of one of them, and not a whole lot at that, is griefing your team. Full stop. If its a swf and everyone consents then sure, use perks like that. But unless you're in super low MMR I don't think using super niche perks are respectful to the other people on your team who are trying to win. To me at least, that's like 80% of survivor perks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't know you, but you citing that people run the same perks just because they're strong and not also fun then citing a lot of terrible perks that people should run instead just sounds self-sabotaging to me. You can do whatever you want it doesn't affect me in the slightest.
I play both sides as well, but that doesn't mean I want both sides to be super balanced to the point of having nothing interesting or strong to use.
-Nurse
Again, you need to define what broken means. To me, it means something that actively warps the game into an unplayable state.
The Nurse comparsion never works because she's gamebreaking, she ignores the fundamentals of the game, she causes perks to get nerfed specifically because of how they interact with her kit.
MFT isn't even in the same town, let alone country as her.
I've had this discussion with multiple people now and I've yet to be convinced that MFT is even close to some of the actual broken things that exist or have existed in this game.
Dead Hard was complained about because it was egregiously overused, not because good players got value from it, arguing otherwise is wrong since the devs didn't nerf its functionality, just how often you can use it. All the pain points of DH for killers still exist.
-Items
Maybe at one point when items were gigabroken that would've been fair to say. But the only very strong items left are toolboxes which are probably next on the chopping block, so I would definitely say that consensus is outdated personally.
-Perkless
I don't see how my skill is relevant to the point you're quoting. If I have a full healing build, I'm not going to spend all game hiding and doing gens and not healing. Could I? Sure, but I'm wasting the potential of my perks for no good reason.
This is why people enjoy multi-purpose perks like Resilience and MFT. I want to get chased, but these perks enhance my strength for other things as well, it feels good to use because its seamless and doesn't require tedious set up. That's how perks should be.
I can assure you I'm doing well enough and will continue to win most of my games even without MFT. I don't mind having more people to play with though. :)
-Blight
Idk why you keep bringing up me twisting words to win a forum argument, its not that important to me, I just didn't read your earlier posts.
I brought up Blight to shoot down the idea that meta = not fun.
-Sloppy
Except none of those killer things I brought up need to be nerfed, my entire point is that you're saying MFT forces the killer to change their whole playstyle, that's not true.
So I brought up things that actually force players to change up their playstyle, which is true.
MFT doesn't make survivors jump over walls or start building weapons to hit the killer with, it simply gives you a strong haste buff while injured, the gameplay loop is still the same, you still run the survivor down.
If you're going to argue that the perk needs to nerfed because the haste is too strong, do that. But let's stop the hyperbole and claiming its the next MoM or whatever other boogeyman people decide to choose for the day. Its definitely not even close to the strongest thing survivors have gotten in the game's lifespan.
Meme playstyles shouldn't be considered in serious discussions about balance because the user of said playstyles should be prepared to possibly get stomped, which shouldn't be an issue considering they're memeing no? Nerfing perks to preserve incorrect playstyles like saw only Billy makes no sense.
People play stuff like that because they don't care about winning and just want to fool around.
-Function
Its not free, you have to get injured to use it. Which, we can discuss the impact of being injured, but its still a cost to the perk.
I have never downplayed the strength of the perk, you don't need to explain to me that its good. I know its good, I've been using it since it came out and I've been reaping the rewards of being a decent looper with it active.
I personally just don't find it gamebreaking because you still need skill to get true value out of it, sure a rank 20 can get 3s more chase-time just from the base value, but is that really problematic? I don't think so.
I'm fairly confident that if all the players saying they're losing games solely due to the perk uploaded footage of them playing Killer, a lot would come to light.
Killers still have plenty of counters to the perk but for some reason the perk is talked about like its playing the game for most players which is what I take issue with.
Even godlike players still make fundamental mistakes in chase or get outplayed that result in downs despite having this perk + Hope. As long as that potential exists and isn't super rare, the perk is balanced to me.
I am still unconvinced that perks shouldn't have constant value, there is too much RNG in this game for niche perks to be what should be the standard, its not fun running No Mither and then going against an Oni for example. I wouldn't want perks to be like that.
Resilience if far from niche, I'm not sure how you got that, I would argue its even better than MFT its just an older perk so people treat it differently, you get a permanent 9% boost to every single action that's not movement. Which means no matter what you're doing you get value from it.
Resilience/DH/MFT/Hope are excellent to me because you can use them in most builds and get value in most games. I personally find them the peak of perk design in the game to be honest. I wish both sides had plenty of perks like these, it would make the game a lot more fun to me.
-M1 Killers
As I've said before, we definitely should not water down new content just because of M1 killers, they will still be bad but now the game is made worse for it.
That makes no sense to me, and last time I checked almost every killer including M1 killers have decent killrates. If that changes with official data we can open the discussion again but people are acting like M1 killers get rolled every game, my own experience says otherwise.
Its still entirely possible to consistently win most of your games even with the perk being relevant, on any killer.
Exhaustion perks are not really a counter to MFT I feel like that's bad advice that's been spread, if anything expose perks are far more powerful at controlling it.
The best counter to MFT is to utilize tools and chase strategies that don't involve holding W to the survivor, killer powers, mindgames, instadowns. They exist and most everyone can employ them.
I personally enjoy the fact that bloodlusters are struggling because of the perk, but perhaps I'm just petty.
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I feel like no matter the response I give or you give, we are always going to respond to one another because we are both too stubborn to listen to each other's points. I was going to right out a long response but decided against it, since it is realistically pointless.
To put it bluntly, and to save both of us the time, I think it would be best to just stop arguing with one another and drop it here.
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It's alright lol. That's the point of discussion. We don't have to agree.
If its any consolation, the perk is definitely getting nerfed. Just have to hang in there. 😀
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MFT is so weak and fine its meta.
Non issue going against bad players though.
News flash. SWF with coms dont even need to be good loopers to win.
Its so balanced already against Swf what a great idea this perk was.
Bully squads where more fun than this gen rush meta rubbish.
SM has really messed up the games direction IMO.
My 2 cents.
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I agree with this. However when it's stacked with Hope it's legit broken. With a 115% killers it takes the entire length of a map to catch up to them sometimes. They should not stack.
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