Just a reminder that people will defend anything
I'm getting deja vu again.
Just a reminder that some people will unironically defend anything regardless of how bad for the game it is.
Old DS, pre conspicuous nerf DS, release circle of healing, post nerf circle of healing, post post nerf circle, release mettle of man, pre nerf eruption, range nurse, pre nerf medkits, blight add ons, spirit add ons, pre nerf DH, PTB OTR, forever freddy, pre nerf spirit.
Everything mentioned has been nerfed (other than blight and spirit add ons), and were defended by some people. Looking back its easy to say that they serve no place in the game due to how unhealthy they were.
Made for this is todays version of this. It does not belong in the game and it's surprising to see it survive 2 hot fixes.
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It's not surprise. Perk is not problematic, it's just fine. If devs see any issue with it, they will just nerf it. They are more brave with nerfing things lately.
So if they did not nerf MfT, data just shows perk is fine. Just deal with it.
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Absolutely. To this day people will still defend Deja Vu by saying it's not a good perk. Survivor main are going to riot the day BHVR finally nerfs it.
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that same data tells them maps like the game and haddonfield are ok and don't need changing cuz killers get a decent average kill rate on these maps despite their problems but that data doesn't show how miserable it is to actually play on these maps.
idk what they're waiting for exactly, to see that there's a decline in kill rates in matches with mft? cuz that's probably not gonna happen much but that doesn't mean the perk is not busted.
how did their data not tell them that dead hard was problematic when everyone and their mom complained about it yet it remained in the game for 6 years.
bhvr just don't wanna shake off their old "stats based only" balancing methods.
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ah I remember the original spirit discussions
“just use iron will bro”
”just run spine chill to counter prayer beads”
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Except DH didn't get nerfed because it was gamebreaking or overpowered, it got nerfed because it was egregiously overused which was where a majority of the complaints came from.
They didn't even nerf its function just how often you can use it a match.
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I'm not really having many issues with it.
Most Killer powers aren't meaningfully impacted by it.
Rather than nerf a genuinely strong and interesting perk, perhaps we should buff those Killers.
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In the same regard that people will complain about anything.
I've seen people claim whispers was the most broken perk in the game
That's why the devs are doing a good job to rely on data and numbers. You can't count on humans to be unbiased
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Overdramatic to compare all these things to Made for This. The only time where it is problematic is when it is paired with Hope in Endgame and this is mostly due to Hope.
Other than that, I have not struggled against it so far. And when I saw Killers struggling, it was either of those two:
- The Killer itself is not that great to begin with
- The Killer player was just not good.
Both are not the fault of Made for this. If a Deathslinger chases me while I am at 103% and struggles because he is bad with his power, does not mean that Made for This is OP (as said Deathslinger claimed. Not hitting a single shot in 2 Gens of Chase is not my Perk being OP).
And for the first point - yes, Killers without a Chase Power usually struggle against it. But nerfing Made for This would not really change this. A bad Killer concept will be a bad Killer concept, it is not like Killers like Trapper were Top Tier before MFT and then are now F Tier because of it.
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I assume data shows made for this is fine and that it's not a problem against most killers, so bhvr isn't going to nerf it anytime soon. I personally haven't had any issues with it although I've basically only been playing killer since it came out.
The only thing "worth" nerfing would be the stackablilty of haste, but doing so would open the hell of a can of worms (If haste can't stack why can regression perks stack ? If if you add a limit to how fast a survivor can be why don't you add a limit to how fast gens can be done ?).
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the game and haddonfield are ok
They are ok. I play just fine on these maps as killer. Yes even M1 killers, especially M1 killers.
I also haven't struggled against Made For This as killer. As an M1 killer.
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I miss facing old spirit because she was such a pot luck guessing game.
That level of random variance and unpredictability made her very scary to face. I miss it for those very reasons.
I fully understand how people felt it wasn't fair but it wasn't really meant to be, sadly with making killer powers more predictable and obvious they have watered down the scare factor of the game.
Which is a shame.
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tbh, I do think it's being closely monitored. There are certain combinations with the perk that get broken in some situations (e.g. during endgame with Hope against a 110 killer / 115 killer that doesn't have mobility aides).
Maybe they'll change something about the endurance in the long run - maybe they change something about haste stacking. Maybe they want to collect more data on more combinations and interactions with more killers. --- And maybe it's better to help the killers who really struggle than nerfing the perk.
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Thr DBD ambassador Otzdarva says both of those maps are actually pretty good for most killers. And that’s pretty much what the stats bear out. Also why would they nerf survivor perks that doesn’t really decrease killrates? It seems you just don’t want survivors to have even mildly useful perks. And if that’s what you want, you should ask specifically for it. Show the world what you really are.
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It feels worse when you try to make sensible compromises with either side for the overall health of the game and explore a middle ground and everyone wants to keep their overpowered toys and start insulting each other.
I know it's not a new thing but man is it getting us nowhere.
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i am not gonna take every word otz says like a gospel he is a pretty experienced player but he doesn't get stuff right all the time and this is one of times he has been wrong.
and even if we argue that he is right it doesn't change the fact that these maps are considered unfun to play on by most of the community for obvious reasons, there's no fun in going from pallet to pallet on the game insta breaking them as killer or not looping them as a Survivor cuz most pallets don't allow you to do any fun plays.
i personally like both sides equally and argue for good changes for both sides also equally this is me being frustrated that bhvr don't learn from their mistakes.
i want gameplay changes for the Survivor side that gives them something new to do and not have problematic perks every other chapter that usually get nerfed or useless perks all together.
the Survivor side really just needs something new to do other than waiting for a new skin every 3 months.
ps :- i could think of at least 3 perk ideas for Survivors that are strong and balanced over a cup of coffee while bhvr seems to struggle doing so over months in development and we end up with stupidly broken perks like coh, dh and mft.
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Most of the community is made up of survivor mains (or people who lean that way). They do not consider those maps unfun. The vocal minority of hard killer mains do.
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I also like facing Nurse, because she can actually be countered. But when she brings her strongest add-ons, the strategies that counter her don't matter. How can you counter a Spirit who brings Cherry Blossom and Mother Daughter Ring? She effectively has no weakness/counter at that point. Spirit can be fun to verse, but when certain killers bring their strongest stuff they pretty much cease to have weaknesses.
I have not played enough Singularity to know if this is true for him as well, but they should have some basekit counters. Obviously those weaknesses should not be as prevalent when they bringer rarer add-ons.
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I love playing on The Game as killer. It's one of my favourite maps.
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Very simple change to get around the problem of Made For This and Hope: Made For This deactivates when the exit gates are powered.
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As things stand, Made For This is not really a problematic perk. It's 3% extra movement speed while injured. It's certainly a strong perk, but far from overpowered. MFT by itself only really affects a very small handful of killers.
There are perks that counter it and add-ons that inflict Hindered or Exhausted. Both of these counter the perk. Outside of counters, it's basically useless against any halfway decent killer, and extremely strong against noob killers.
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Remind me again why Made For This doesn't belong in the game?
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Regardless of its own power (I can't comment on it myself as I don't even have it unlocked) it seemingly dwarfs the other haste perks available.
Dark Theory only gives you a 2% boost, is only valuable when the killer is at risk of snuffing it, and requires considerable strategy and/or luck to get any value at all.
Hope only activates once all the generators are finished, so you are running a 3 perk build for the majority of the game.
Other perks like Blood Pact require you to heal and stay within a certain radius of a survivor to get any benefit.
MfT on the other hand doesn't have these restrictions. You don't have to go out of your way to activate it or really change up your playstyle. You only have to be injured, which is naturally going to happen. It doesn't restrict you from using exhaustion perks either. You can choose to get as much benefit out of MfT as you want and then still DH, Lithe, etc. Out of all the options it is the perk you are reliably going to have active the most. Not to mention you can 99 a heal and negate the 1 shot risk. I struggle to really see a downside or limitation, which is something all the other perks mentioned have.
It seemingly goes completely against BHVR's design philosophy to introduce a perk such as this. It trumps all the other haste options available by a mile. So I agree it needs a change. God knows the game has enough redundant perks as it is.
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"data just shows perk is fine"
also data shows that trapper is a good killer and nurse is the worst. but okay lets ignore that OoO also was reworked while still having low escape rate and the same happens with MFT.
survivor: I got a new toy to
abusehave fun.Post edited by EQWashu on13 -
Sensible compromises such as?
Also what would you consider an overpowered toy on the Killer side of things?
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The addons most agree are overtuned on the stronger killers, I'd consider that.
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I think MFT should go. Not because I think tis op but just because of its effects across the roster. The lower you go, the more you suffer. Also huntress and trickster just straight up lose at tall wall gyms if you dont play really well.
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Meh, I don't really care about Blight or Nurse getting nerfed, I just accept the loss if I see them and try to play my best. They're rare enough to where I see them like once every 20 games, and only a few are good enough to end the game fast.
I'd rather them nerf perks that killers commonly use instead, that would have a much bigger impact on my games.
That being said, I don't think any killer perk needs a nerf right now aside from Sloppy cause its annoying.
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I still think it's BS the nerf to Freddy's add-ons under the idea that if someone runs them with certain perks, it adds up. Feel like the better response was just to limit how much stacking you can have on things. Set a limit to how much of a percentage slowdowns/boosts can be so you don't have to nerf everything to insure the stacked values aren't busted.
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Tombstone piece. Myers overall could use a buff, but the Tombstone piece make everyone iffy on giving him anything. I play alot of Myers, but I hate touching this thing just cuz I know how ######### it must feel to just get deleted from the game without ever going down.
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Why do you need reminding when when it takes 1 KYF of testing to show why the perk doesnt belong?
Anyway:
- Unfun to verse, as survivors get rewarded for you doing your job correctly and hitting them
- Goes against BHVRs design philosophy for haste perks (look at dark theory, hope, BP etc)
- Tiles, structures, maps, and killer powers are not balanced around a 20-30% longer catch up time
- MTF essentially acts like a mini pre rework dead hard at tiles, giving you pallets and vaults you normally wouldn't have reached
- Since survivor hitboxes are smaller than killer, building structures encourage W keying and hugging god windows which is only made possible due to the added catch up time (play literally 1 match on garden/suffo/ironworks)
- Due to map sizes and the distance between loops, W keying with the perk becomes obscenely strong
- Killer powers that rely heavily on close/precise hits get almost hard countered by the perk (wraith lunge, billy curves, hag scroll wheel, huntress, doctor shock greeding, bubba catchup, freddy snares, pyramid head charging/catchup, trickster, artist, dredge, sadako (since she is purely m1, nothing else), knight, singularity overclock duration)
- For such strong effects, it cannot be countered by in-match mechanics (don't have infinite exhaustion addons? lmao good luck)
- Encourages tunnelling and camping as injuring multiple survivors isn't appealing and you want to be able to down a survivor in reasonable time
- Stacks with other haste perks to make it even more problematic
- Synergises with dead hard
- Literally zero reason to NOT take the perk because of the reasons stated above
- Absolutely zero downsides
- Absolutely zero significant requirements for the perk to get value (no, being injured and not having exhaustion literally happens every match, that is NOT a requirement)
- Despite the 3% being overpowered on its own, it comes with a secondary haste effect which is also quite strong (idc about that part of the perk though, its just the 3%).
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Why is it "abuse" to use a good perk? Killers running Merciless Storm only when it was bugged and gamebreaking was abuse. Survivors just have their first toy to play with I'm a loooong time so of course, Killers rush to this forum and will beat the horse until it dies.
They may as well just nerf it sooner than later because blame on any games lost involving this perk will never stop.
Post edited by EQWashu on2 -
Add another overhyped "mUsT NeRf" new perk to the pile next to Fogwise, Hyperfocus, and Bloodrush.
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Fair enough. But those perks didnt make M1 killers unplayable.
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Neither does a conditional 3% haste that only works for half a chase and doesnt synergize with the most popular exhaustion perks.
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I've yet to see a single sensible argument detailing how the perk breaks the game in such a way that warrants receiving a nerf.
All the complaints about it embelish MFT's effect on the average game and neglect to acknowledge the existing mechanics that allow Killers to counter and/or play around it.
And yet, people continue to make posts talking as if everybody knows this perk is a problem.
unfun to verse
I'm sorry, but if this is true, you fundamentally disagree with DBD's core gameplay loop. MFT does not change Survivor gameplay in any meaningful way--it just makes Survivors slightly better at what they already do.
Goes against BHVRs design philosophy for haste perks (look at dark theory, hope, BP etc)
The perk follows the same logic as every other perk in the game; low impact, unconditional activation; high impact, conditional activation.
Self-Care and Circle of Healing have long been among the most popular perks in the game, and medkits have always been understood to be the best item in the game. Dead Hard was THE most popular perk, because it gave injured Survivors a third health state. ...yet suddenly, with the release of MFT, people want to claim that "being injured is not a big deal."
MFT is a high impact perk with the condition that Survivors need to be in their most vulnerable state. Survivors have long sought to mitigate the threat that came from being injured, so the notion that being injured is insignificant directly contradicts this game's entire history.
Tiles, structures, maps, and killer powers are not balanced around a 20-30% longer catch up time
Killer powers are absolutely capable of handling the distance MFT creates. There are a few (Doctor, Legion, and Trickster) who will feel pigeon-holed into running specific perks/add-ons to account for a meta-shift, but everyone else in the roster can play around MFT with their basekit ability.
I can elaborate on what I've said already, or respond to your other bullet points, should you so desire. Otherwise, I'll leave it there for sake of brevity.
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Isnt it funny how "data shows X is fine" was used to defend Nurse being busted... and here we are, with Made For This... it is a "nerf for thee but not for me" type of situation I presume? The truth is that the data doesnt show anything meaningful, we all know this, stop pretending like it does.
In all seriousness, Made For This provides too much value, at least in my opinion from playing against it and using it. Remove the Haste effect or remove the Endurance effect; it shouldnt have both. Its downside of "doesnt work while Exhausted" is easy to work around, since there are Exhaustion perks with niche activation conditions.
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Old dead hard also "just made survivors a 'bit' better at what they do", that's the issue. There's a reason haste perks are rarely introduced into the game, and when they are, they have strict conditions. MFT gives you free distance just like what old dead hard did with no reliable in game counterplay. That's the issue.
Being injured is part of the game. You will get injured in 99.9% of games. Survivors aren't vulnerable when they're injured, they're vulnerable when they're at risk of being downed. The perks synergy with dead hard, the existence of other S tier injury perks (resil, OTR, DS), and basic team coordination means that unless you're against either nurse or bubba who can counter all of the above, being injured does not mean that much.
Positioning will always be a more significant factor. This means that it does go against their philosophy since it doesn't have a strict activational requirement, as being injured is not a significant requirement, definitely not significant enough for permanent 3%.
As for killer powers, that's just straight wrong. If one single perk is forcing a killer to mindbreaker/exhaustion add ons every match then that perk has too much of an impact and should be nerfed. Doctor, knight, trickster, etc should not be forced to bring exhaustion perks because survivors *might* bring ONE perk.
For other killers having in game counterplay, nah. I've done enough testing in KYF, watched enough gameplay, done enough pubs to come to a reasonable conclusion that it screws over a solid 75% of the killer cast. As I said: Wraith lunge, billy curves, hag hits, huntress, doctor shock greeding, bubba catchup, freddy snares, pyramid head charging/catchup, trickster, artist, dredge, sadako, knight, singularity overclock duration. All moments in a killers power that is balanced around catching the survivor in a specific time frame it is too strong against because they are not balanced around a 20-30% longer catchup time, they are balanced around the base catchup time.
If being almost as unfun as old dead hard, having no in game counterplay for the majority of killers, encouraging tunnelling, screwing over specific killer powers, goes against the structure of every other haste perk, and having no valid pre requisite to use the perk, isn't enough to warrant a nerf, then ######### me IDK what does.
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"It just makes Survivors slightly better at what they do", "MFT does not change Survivor gameplay in any meaningful way".
"MFT is a high impact perk".
So which is it? Does the perk have high impact or is it meaningless? You cant argue that it's activation condition "must be strong" while saying "the perk is weak and meaningless", it literally just contradicts what you are saying.
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The statement:
MFT does not change Survivor gameplay in any meaningful way--it just makes Survivors slightly better at what they already do.
refers to how MFT effects the gameplay loop. With or without MFT, nothing about the Survivors' strategy changes. They play the game the exact same way whether they are running MFT or not.
That is all that statement is saying.
If you noticed, that statement was in response to OP's comment that MFT is "unfun to verse."
I don't have time right now to articulate a response to this right now, but seeing as I chose to respond to Iron_Cutlass, I figured I would let you know that I will get back to this when I can. I liked your response.
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I usually don't care about data because like you said, it does not show everything. OoO users died so much and devs did not nerf this perk cuz that for years. But perk was busted asf.
But i just don't see problem with MfT. 110% killers have range/teleport/speed powers which they hardly feel any difference. 115% killers are mostly anti-loop killers and they can play around it as well. Only problem comes with m1 killers. And maybe we should buff them instead of nerfing fun perk?
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Don't forget that bloodlust exists for every killer, base kit, no additional effort required.
For a perk that's hard countered by bloodlust as well as nearly every killer power, there's an awful lot of complaining.
Pretty sure 'skill' is generally measured by how well someone can use the games base kit. If a killer is kicking pallets on cooldown, never mind games, and never throws a hatchet, that's not a perk problem.
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For starters, I disagree with your premise that MFT and old Dead Hard are effectively the same. They may seek to achieve the same thing (reaching pallets/windows you otherwise would not have) but they go about it in very different ways, and the way DH does it has always been the community's problem.
Dead Hard creates the illusion of victory for Killers, leading them to feel robbed when the Survivor 'presses E' and continues running away. Many feel that there is no counterplay to this interaction, putting Killers in a lose/lose situation.
MFT does not have the "gotcha" mechanic that Dead Hard has, and thus Killers can account for the perk and play around it without the fear of feelsbad surprises.
The counterplay for MFT is pretty much anything but following the Survivor's exact pathing and relying on math to win you the game. There will inevitably be times where that is the best strategy to employ, but by and large Killers have more at their disposal than you give them credit for.
You went on to list a ton of Killers who are mildly inconvenienced by MFT.
Wraith - Body block window, then take free hit or force pallet drop. Rinse and repeat.
Billy - Downs healthy Survivors, so MFT isn't even a problem.
Hag - Not a chase killer, so unaffected by MFT.
...do I really need to go through these one by one? To say that all these Killers are hurt by MFT is disingenuous.
Doctor is perhaps the biggest loser to MFT, but I don't play Doctor so someone more skilled with him than I might be able to tell us what it has been like playing him since the update. Other than that, you've named Trickster, who already struggles unless he's handed a map full of pallet loops and low LOS blockers.
Also, why does everyone say that MFT "encourages tunneling?" How is that even remotely true? If the perk is adding 20-30+ seconds to all of your chases, you're trolling by over-committing to any one Survivor.
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Ah yes a perk that almost counters basekit mechanics that is mandatory in the game, what a weak perk.
Lol no, it's opposite of what you believes.
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"the data shows" the data is only part of the balancing for something. This perk makes playing m1's miserable which is the same exact reason old COH had but even then old COH was still very strong despite only being a 50% increase in heal speed.
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Dear lord this won’t end until the perk is dead in the ground huh.
I think made for this is totally fine but at this point I wish they’ll nerf it so I can stop seeing these constant threads all saying the same exact thing.
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On one hand it's more like players don't want things to change... hence the defending
But on the other hand given the history of the game it seems like players are willing to accept things being changed if they get away from "boring" playstyles
And having perks that are effective just add to it
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And some ppl will constantly whine and defend a position that’s not worth defending because they’re wrong. While med-kits and CoH may have needed changes they are definitely not okay in their current state and saying they’re fine because they needed a nerf is just stupid. Some people will always complain about something that might be too challenging for them or what they perceive as potentially being too challenging for them.
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It wasn’t though. Even in its nerfiest state -pre-loss of self-care- the healing rate was still at normal speed because while it had a 50% decrease, at tier 3 it had an all-healing speed boost of 50%. The logical thing to do would have been to instead boost the altruistic healing speed only and keep the 50% reduction speed for self-care. Instead it got nerfed into complete uselessness. Because that’s what ppl want - for one side to not have anything good.
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I’m also kind of sick about hearing how “broken” dead hard was and how it couldn’t be countered. You know how you counter it? You hit them, they keep going, you keep going and hit them again. The only problem with Dead Hard was that it could’ve been used endlessly once you recovered. It’s a strong perk and needed an activation condition but making it a one-time only perk took it too far.
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Ah yes, the "fun" perk argument?
There are a lot of "fun" perks. Diversion? Hope? Blast Mine? Smash Hit? No Mither? Object of Obsession? Soul Guard? Red Herring? For The People? I can list more.
Notice how all of those perks have fun and interesting effects. Notice how you never see them in public matches.
The truth is that most people dont care if things are fun or not, it's the same reason why you see the exact same builds from Survivors and Killers every match, because people care more about winning than using "fun" things. You can cut the BS because it's really easy to see through.
And what about interacting with the Killer? Old Dead Hard created mindgaming, new ways of playing with and against the perk. I was fine with Old Dead Hard, now we are stuck with this Made For This meta which is arguably more boring (since it promotes holding W), less interactive (since the perk is just passively giving extra distance with minimal downside), and stronger than what we had before (no need to worry about timing or precision, you just get the benefits for free).
Oh yea, what about "fun" things from the Killer's side?
Scratch Mirror, one of my favorite addons in the game, is completely useless in this meta. You move 5% faster than Survivors in Tier 1; MFT makes you move 3% faster while injured; you are 2% faster than Survivors... holding a loop tightly is already enough to not be caught by this, now you can actually gain distance. Oh, but I guess you wont care about that?
Or my main Killer, Billy, yes they have an insta-down power, but curving requires insane precision, and even with Double Engravings, you BARELY catch Survivors, once Survivors know that you use your chainsaw a lot, they stay injured because there is no point in healing. 3% is enough to make the difference between a down or not. Prior to Made For This releasing, I played Billy a lot. Now they are basically unplayable because they are a glorified M1 Killer in the current meta. But I guess you wont care about that?
The "fun" argument goes both ways, people having "fun" is nice, but your "fun" does come at the expense of effectively removing and punishing players for picking certain Killers and addons. Your "fun" makes people not want to use other "fun" things that exist, because it effectively punishes people for wanting to have fun and forces them into strict playstyles.
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