Tunneling Wraiths

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Almost every single match I play against a Wraith I get tunneled. Is this chance? Why does it seem like most Wraiths tunnel?

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  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
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  • Deathslinger1of2
    Deathslinger1of2 Member Posts: 129
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    I’m being it but dramatic, but I mean I see a lot of wraiths tunnel when I go against one. Like 3/4 tunnel, to give it a number. Does anyone else face this problem?

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
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    Ok, so lets say it was 4. Did the wraith win those 4 games?

  • Deathslinger1of2
    Deathslinger1of2 Member Posts: 129
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    I’m just wondering if anyone else has the same experience because I just happen to see it quite often with Wraith. What has been your experience when it comes to Wraith gameplay?

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
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    So, what you are saying is that the wraith used a strategy in their games that resulted in a 100% win rate, albeit with a very small sample size. Why exactly are you complaining about that? The strategy seems to be highly effective, wouldn't the wraith be a fool to not employ a strategy that results in that high of a win rate?

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
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    Because wraith is actually good at tunneling.

  • C3Tooth
    C3Tooth Member Posts: 8,266
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    Thats pretty good point, Im gonna use this in the future!

  • fulltonon
    fulltonon Member Posts: 5,762
    edited July 2023
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    But then in "proper" matches where everyone try to win, killers doesn't get a chance to play if they don't tunnel/camp due to lack of literal time.

    Yeah that's not 100% but it can be good chunk of games like at least 60%.

  • Deathstroke
    Deathstroke Member Posts: 3,319
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    60% games definetely does not require tunneling first person out. That is not always even smart thing to do survivors can rush gens more easily when one loops killer on the side of map were they all completed and take hits if needed. Smarter is to spread hooks and tunnel when someone is on death hook. Unless you play blight or nurse then hard tunneling works.

  • Pluto_1
    Pluto_1 Member Posts: 337
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    There's your mistake. Your DBD morality is yours and yours alone.

  • burt0r
    burt0r Member Posts: 4,118
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    I don't have any. I was a killer exclusive player and quit December '21.

    I'm just still on these forums for entertainment at this point.

  • Pluto_1
    Pluto_1 Member Posts: 337
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    There's a lot of entertainment to be found on these forums. 😂😂

  • Deathslinger1of2
    Deathslinger1of2 Member Posts: 129
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    It secures a win, I’m not THAT dumb. But can’t one find a strategy that doesn’t make the other side absolutely miserable? When I play survivor my intention isn’t to make a killer’s gameplay miserable.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
    edited July 2023
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    If you are specifically not using a strategy because it is "unfun" even if it is effective, then your goal is not to win. Inherently that makes you a "scrub" by definition, and i don't mean it as some "rude" term, its more of a "clinical" definition.


    I post this a lot here, but i think it bears repeating in this case. I would suggest reading the free E-Book "Playing to Win" by game designer David Sirlin. https://www.sirlin.net/ptw.


    Here is an excerpt from the book that i feel is most relevant here:


    Introducing...the Scrub


    The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.


    Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.

    The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.


    In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.


    You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.


    Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.


    A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.

  • appleas
    appleas Member Posts: 1,094
    edited July 2023
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    Going for hooks alone without strategy won’t win games for the average player.

    I played 4 matches back to back as Wraith using Distressing, Beast of Prey, Jolt and Fearmonger. I tried not to tunnel and didn’t camp until endgame.

    1st game: 3 Survivors escaped

    2nd game: 4 Survivors escaped

    3rd game: 3 Survivors escaped

    4th game: 0 Survivors escaped

    I was farming BP so I tried to get as much hits along with hit and run. 6-7 hooks for the first 3 games and 11 for the 4th game.

    Add ons were Swift Hunt (White) and Blind Warrior (White). Of course my experience isn’t representative of the population since my region has lots of sweaty survivors but it is what it is.

    Survivors and devs may want Killers to go for chases and hooks but unfortunately the game is balanced for kills.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,171
    edited July 2023
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  • EvilSerje
    EvilSerje Member Posts: 1,070
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    Yep, but as you mentioned, it's around 3/4 of matches. But Nemesis and Pyramid are 100% will tunnel. Trickster also will tunnel 3/4 and 1/4 will camp.

  • Pluto_1
    Pluto_1 Member Posts: 337
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    My intention isn't to make your game unfun. My intention is to win. If I can't keep up with the gens then I have to resort to other means to secure a victory.

  • GingerBeard
    GingerBeard Member Posts: 271
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    From my experience wraith sticks out as the most inclined to tunnel regardless if there are five gens left or not.

  • Deathslinger1of2
    Deathslinger1of2 Member Posts: 129
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    Well then yes, I’m a scrub. It secures your win. Ok, I get that. For you personally, do you tunnel? Asking this is a scrub question then, but then if you only look at terms of winning and losing so black and white, answer me this: Do you enjoy the suffering of others? It’s a yes or no question, just like winning. Do I win this match? Yes or no? Do I enjoy the suffering of others? Yes or no?

  • THE_Crazy_Hyena
    THE_Crazy_Hyena Member Posts: 246
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    I have not had any issues with Wraith, but man oh man, how many Weskers and Huntresses I have had tunneling/hard-camping lately.

  • Halloulle
    Halloulle Member Posts: 1,173
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    He is one of those killers, where, upon unhook I automatically start counting and wonder if I even get to 3 before I'm in chase again * insert kek face emoji *

  • MaTtRoSiTy
    MaTtRoSiTy Member Posts: 1,802
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    Anecdotally I would agree Wraiths tend to tunnel more than other killers but then Huntress' seem to camp and tunnel more too imo. I think it is something to do with them being free with the base game and new killers often resort to these tactics out of desperation

  • Mr_K
    Mr_K Member Posts: 9,132
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    It's not the killer it's the player.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
    edited July 2023
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    You see, you are already attacking a strawman, but i'll answer your questions:


    • For you personally do you tunnel?
      • Only if it is the most effective strategy to secure me the win. Hard tunneling as a whole is actually a bad idea most of the time, because to hard tunnel a survivor out, it means 3 other survivors have free reign on the gens. But if survivors put themselves in a situation where i think camping or tunneling will win the the game? Yeah, absolutely i will do it.
    • Do you enjoy the suffering of others?
      • You are reading too much into this. No, i do not. But you assume that me playing to win is enjoying the suffering of others. What about survivors? Survivors like to bring BNP, hyperfocus, stake out, and tons of other perks and employ strategies that are often frustrating for a killer. Why do they get a free pass?
    • Do i win this match?
      • Maybe? Like i said, tunneling and camping isn't always a good idea, it only is when it works.
    • Do i enjoy the suffering of others?
      • See above.


    Lastly, you are making at least 1 assumption, possibly 2. Firstly, i also play survivor, and i also employ strategies there that killers would find "unfun" in order to secure a win. Secondly, i worry that you might think that i believe that these strategies are good for the game. But here is the secret. I actually don't. I can believe multiple things to be true at once.


    • I believe that at the absolute highest levels of play, this game heavily favors survivors, and there are 2 arguably 3 killers out of the 30+ that are actually viable at this high level (hint, most content creators will actually agree with this statement, but they disagree with my following statement)
    • This game should be balanced around the highest level players and what they are capable of, not the "average" players. No other multiplayer game is ever balanced around the "average" players. see this video for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
      • For a quote around this, Game designer Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street who worked on WoW and League of Legends says this: "It's worth pointing out that the more skilled players, and especially professionals... are the best at breaking your game; as they'll be better at exploiting balance problems"
    • Tunneling is bad for the health of the game.
    • Camping is bad for the health of the game.


    But just because i think it is bad for the game, doesn't mean i'm not going to use it when the developer lets me. My point is, if you want to blame anyone for tunneling, don't blame the player who is using a strategy, blame the developers for allowing that strategy to exist.


    Complaining about tunneling is like someone complaining that the queen is overpowered in chess and being mad at someone for using a strategy that takes the opponents queen, or forking pieces, or using other strategies to win.

  • Pluto_1
    Pluto_1 Member Posts: 337
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    Let me get this straight.

    If we play to win then that automatically means that we enjoy the suffering of others? If we ever meet then you'll be the first out of my game.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
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    Not to ping you twice, but i want to make sure you see this post as well. Something i have been thinking about for a while, is that this game is actually designed to make players suffer. Specifically survivors, although killers end up suffering at the hands of SWF and such as well, but mainly survivors.


    What i mean by that is. This game is designed around survivors "playing a game" despite how unfun that "game" is, which is, repairing the generators, and escaping the trial. Imagine if there was no killer in the game at all, you might have actually experienced this before with like an afk wraith or something like that. The "game" that survivors play, is to repair the generators and escape.


    However for killers, their "game" is to stop the survivors from playing their "game". And how do they do that? By chasing, downing and ultimately hooking them. So what have they now done. They put the survivor on a time out effectively, so now their team must come get them. They took away a survivor's agency to do, well, anything, and now they must rely on their teammates to give them that agency back.


    The entire game is designed around survivors losing their sense of agency and being unable to do anything. Ultimately, this is personally why i prefer playing killer, because i don't like that feeling of losing the ability to do anything, but, i do play both sides depending on time of day, and try to play them at least relatively equally in order to learn how both sides play and get better. But i'm just saying that from a "fun" and "preference" side of things, i have more fun with killer because that role is not designed to lose their ability to do anything because the other side is completing their objective.


    This is also why i think SWF bully squads are so much more unfun to go against. Because they flip the roles, such that, the one that has agency, and the one that is designed to take it away, are flipped.

  • DBD78
    DBD78 Member Posts: 3,455
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    I played against many non tunneling Nemesis and Pyramids, so your 100% is a lie. It could be 1% even if you only see tunneling you are only 1 person.

  • Deathslinger1of2
    Deathslinger1of2 Member Posts: 129
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    I’m sorry, it’s just a game and I let myself get heated. I can see why it’s better to play to win as a killer bc there’s only one against 4. I mean to say I agree. I personally do not feel powerful when I play killer. Part of that is just skill issues on my end but I also feel like it can be hard to gain control over survivors with gens popping. It feels to me like some Killer base powers need to be stronger. I main Deathslinger, and I ran with no add one for the first time in a long time and I felt helpless. His base reload seems very slow to me. Thoughts on focussing more adjustments to base powers rather than perks?

  • Ripley
    Ripley Member Posts: 866
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    I disagree with the premise that the core objective of a game is for the player to win. Personally I have more fun not prioritising winning. I can win but did I have fun doing it? Not always. There's a bigger picture at play that game designers should understand different gamers get value out of different things. I feel like this strategy is for one player type "the killer" when some of my fun as killer probably more resembles a hybrid of explorer/socializer. And the interesting thing is a larger portion of players are social type, and I think games that allow for repetitive strategies to dominate (i.e. tunneling, spawn-camping, stun-locking) tend to lose players this way. So a designer has to work novelty back into the experience for players to help mitigate player churn.

    https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/bartle-s-player-types-for-gamification

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
    edited July 2023
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    I'm simply talking about some peoples goals. Sure, some people don't play games to win. But there are always going to be a group of people that do. And if you get upset at people for doing that, that's on you and/or the developers for allowing them to do the things they do. Not the player. But much of the hate around this subject is directed toward the person doing the thing, not the people that allow the thing to happen.


    Its like, imagine that it was totally legal to commit some kind of crime that we have today. You shouldn't get mad at the person for committing that "crime" so to speak, but at the people who are allowing such a crime to not be a "crime".


    A good example of this might be taxation of "the rich". People get mad at rich people because they "don't pay their fair share of taxes" but the reality is, the tax code is what is allowing them to do the things they do. They shouldn't be mad at the people for using the tax code to their advantage, they should be mad at the government that makes it legal for them to do so.


    This whole problem is actually typically why games tend to have a "Ranked" and "unranked" mode. In DBD there really isn't an "unranked" mode that you can queue up for. The "Unranked" mode is the custom games because it doesn't use matchmaking. It could also be argued that there is no ranked mode because you can't see how well you are doing in comparison to other people. This is just one of the many problems DBD has, and why i think they should create a "ranked" mode that is for SWF only, a "ranked" mode that is solo queue only, and another that is unranked completely. Or, if they are worried about splitting the player base, you should have ranked mode ONLY be SWF, or ONLY be Solo queue, and then balance that mode with that in mind. And actually do things based on that. They could also balance the game different in those modes. Like for example in CS:GO where unranked mode gives you more money, and free armor and defuse kits, whereas ranked is much more strict with money and doesn't give you free stuff.

    Post edited by Reinami on
  • Roaroftime
    Roaroftime Member Posts: 402
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    Yes, my experience is the same, Wraiths always tunnel in my rounds whoever they find first and they also tend to be toxic, hit on hook, shake their heads, run NOED and stand over hatch etc.

  • EvilSerje
    EvilSerje Member Posts: 1,070
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    Well, couldn't care less, it's 100% to me, and that's what matter to me. Same as it could be 100% in general because you're one of those who calls focusing 1 survivor only completely ignoring everyone and everything else a "valid strategy".

  • Ripley
    Ripley Member Posts: 866
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    I agree. I think people complain as if somehow pleading to the community will make it stop, it's pretty sad to see. It's frustrating seeing developers overlook issues that are driving players away from their games. I also understand with such a big game they would want to make conservative changes.

    I don't really know how BHVR could address this division without creating different queues like you say. I think moving to SBMM wasn't a good idea to begin with but it is true some asked for it. I'd probably try have a ranked mode for those who want to be challenged. It wouldn't necessarily stop bully squads from queuing social/unranked/casual. A hidden MMR for casual could counter it. I don't think solo queue has improved much for status hud, even with SBMM it's nowhere on par with SWF. Maybe ping system that could only be used sparingly (I hate ping spammers and it could ruin immersion for some, so maybe being able to turn it off).

    It's interesting to me though (slightly OT) that different games can bring out different gamer types in me. I can be very achievement/win oriented and will do brute force repetition if it works. I have to reign it in though because it can really affect my mood and enjoyment.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,182
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    Splitting the queues is the best option, because then they can actually balance them as different modes. For example lets say they made ranked mode the SWF mode and solo queue is unranked. They could give survivors some buffs in the solo queue mode like free kindred, or nerfing the killer in some way to balance the fact that they are solo. Then for the SWF queue, they could make tweaks to nerf the survivors, maybe they just flat out run slower, or they have to repair more gens, or the gen time is increased, or the killer just gets free bloodlust 1 all the time, some kind of mechanic to balance out the fact that the survivors are on discord.

  • DBD78
    DBD78 Member Posts: 3,455
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    Everything not against the rules is a valid strategy and that is a fact. If it's not valid to you then don't do it but you can't tell others how to play the game.

    You have that toxic vibe so if killers don't play "nice" to you then you probably deserve it. I don't have your problems because I respect other players when I play.

  • EvilSerje
    EvilSerje Member Posts: 1,070
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    Although I could get a cringe shock, I find it fancy quickly taking "toxic-vibes" card, escpecially when attacking and accusing of lies, which is very serious accusation indeed. Thank god it's internet and everyone can not answer for their words.

    Won't bother to answer to "valid strategy" or, again, accusations how to play the game and zero possession of information how I play or what people think of my gameplay in EGC, just a demonstration to people who pass by what "defenders" of tunnelers/campers are about.

  • Ripley
    Ripley Member Posts: 866
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    I think there needs to be a way to also allow for SWF who are not as competitive. I've played with some friends on Discord and actually one of the reasons they quit DBD was it getting too sweaty and unfun.

  • Nebula
    Nebula Member Posts: 1,394
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    but have you looked at the deeper moral imperatives upon you disliking tunneling? You’re clearly pulling a straw man and this clearly means that you’re a close minded person for not enjoying an objectively unfun playstyle to go against.

    /s

    And also, OP if it makes you feel any better, yes, 90% of Wraiths hit and run, camp, or tunnel in my games. He’s one of my least favorite killers to play against.

  • thrawn3054
    thrawn3054 Member Posts: 5,897
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    Sadly may Wraiths play as lazy as possible. It's really unfortunate as he's alot of fun to play.